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Thread: New Raptors plan - post Gay trade

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Default New Raptors plan - post Gay trade

    In wake of the Rudy Gay Deal, how does that impact "the plan" moving forward?

    The deal is being met with mixed reactions. Media is mostly giving the Raps a low grade for the move since the financial burden of Gay might prevent them from any other meaningful moves. Fans seem split with most likely falling on the in favor side. Many have long coveted a player like Gay (or specifically Gay for some), so they seem this as a turning point. Both sides are correct on that one point, this move will change the fortune of this franchise over the next 10 years, one way or the other.

    Looking at this deal from a basketball sense…This deal accomplishes one clear goal, it gives the Raptors more talent, something they have desperately been lacking. But like Utah's bloated front-court, the Raps now seem to have a lot of over-lap and redundancy on their roster. Demar Derozan - great athletic slasher who can get to the line. Not a great shooter and is still improving defensively. Rudy Gay - great athletic slasher who can get to the line. Not a great shooter and is an average defender on the wing. While it seems a nice thought to have your two starting wingers be interchangable, that really only works when they both have well rounded games. When neither of your wing players is a floor spacer (good 3 point shooter), you need to get your balance from elsewhere. Factor in that starting Point Guard Kyle Lowry is as much of a slasher as either of the wingers, and you have 3 starters who all want to try and do the same thing. That leaves your front court as floor spacers….If Andrea Bargnani can return to form and provide some shooting, it may work. If the team can somehow still incorporate promising young winger Terrence Ross (the best shooter of their stable of wings), then perhaps they can make it work. Perhaps turning Gay into a small ball 4 with Ross at the 3 would work in the East. Perhaps….

    My biggest concern, in a basketball sense, is how this will impact the development of Terrence Ross? Ross has shown good progress this season. He defends well (for a rookie) and has a good shot to go with his athletic drives. While he lacks the explosive athleticism that Demar and Gay have, he makes up for it by having a better refined game in many aspects (shooting and defending primarily). Ross could very well end up being the player that best suits the starting spot. Should the Raptors move Demar to a 6th man role? It might make the most sense in terms of balancing skill sets, but I very much doubt that they would. Demar is about to be paid like a starting talent, moving him to the bench months after giving him a large contract extension seems extremely unlikely.

    Ideal line-Up Combo
    PG: Lowry
    SG: Ross
    SF: Gay
    PF: Bargnani
    C: Valanciunas
    ----
    Bench (in order of appearance)
    SG: Derozan
    PF/C: Amir
    SG/SF: Anderson
    PG: Lucas
    SF: Fields
    SF: Pietrus
    C: Gray
    PF: Kleiza

    Likely Line-Up Combo
    PG Lowry
    SG Derozan
    SF Gay
    PF Bargnani
    C Amir
    --------
    Anderson
    Fields
    Valanciunas
    Ross
    Gray
    Pietrus
    Kleiza

    Line-Up Consideration? - Gay is only 5 lbs lighter than Thaddeus Young. Raps to play ultimate small ball? Not Casey's prefered style, but as a coach, you have to adapt the strategy to fit the players you have.
    PG: Lowry
    SG: Demar
    SF: Ross
    PF: Gay
    C: Val (need someone to rebound but can still keep up with the pace) - Amir in the interim until JV is healthy.

    Moving forward, the Raptors need a new PF, a new back-up PG and more shooting. Moving Bargnani is still something fans want, but with the plethora of non-shooting wings on this roster (Demar, Gay, Fields) and shoot first, questions later point guards like Lowry and Lucas, Bargnani's spacing might be a necessary evil to open up those driving lanes. Upgrading Lucas to a more traditional PG who can shoot well would go a long way, but moves going forward will be difficult because…

    Looking at this deal from a franchise/financial sense…The Raptors are capped. Which isn't always a bad thing when your owners have deep pockets, but we aren't Los Angeles or New York. We have now moved two of our best tradable assets (Jose's expiring deal and Ed Davis' productivity on a rookie deal) for 1 player, who may or may not help us on the court at the end of the day. No prospects or picks came in in moving the team's best tradable asset (tradable is the caveat, since we don't want to part with JV who is our best asset). This also begs the question, what was Ed Davis' value on the trade market on his own? For Memphis, he seemed to be the player they wanted (since they needed to find a partner to trade Jose), so if not attached to Jose, would Ed Davis have brought in a package worth considering on its own merit? It also seems to demonstrate the market for Jose. The only teams that wanted him teams looking to dump salary. Would Toronto have accepted a deal of Jose for Prince, Daye and a first round pick? Detroit obviously is trying to clear it's books, but would they have parted with a 1st rounder for a player that MAY be able to push them into the 8th seed now that Boston seems sunk? Is a mid-level pick (14-17 range) worth the financial burden of Tayshaun Prince's deal? Would Prince have been a better fit than Gay on the court?

    Gay's deal pays him between $16-$19 million per over the next 3 years. Add in the deals of Fields ($6M), Demar ($9.5M) and Ross ($2.5M), you now have $35 million commited to the wing position. Three of the four are league wide considered over-paid and are potentially untradable. Ross is the only one who could be conceivably moved, but he's also the only one who can shoot the three consistently and could wind up being the best player of the bunch.

    Moving Bargnani now seems much more difficult. Without Jose's expiring deal, or Davis' production/potential (or any pick), there isn't a lot the Raptors can package with Bargnani. The potential suitors for Bargnani also shrunk now (no more LA - Gasol talk for one). Perhaps the best move is still Emeka Okafor and a first rounder from Washington, but I would be surprised if the Raps can get that at this point. Bargnani needs to return to the line-up (which will happen) and be productive (which may or may not happen).

    Perhaps the biggest question out of all this is how does Casey manage this? The team seemed to be moving in the direction of building a defence first, ground it out team (like Memphis) but the pieces seem better suited for a small ball up-tempo team (like Philly). Is Colangelo moving in both directions at once? Does Colangelo have a plan? Does it involve trading Bargnani asap?

    I think we need to amnesty Kleiza and likely trade Anderson at the deadline. Anderson could bring us a quality return and is really the 4th option on the wing now (Ross deserves more minutes to develop). Bringing in another PG or big seems obvious, but the choices are limited. Maybe OKC would give us Maynor for Anderson and Lucas?

    In the end, I am still undecided on how this deal will work out. I like Davis, but moving him was likely to happen eventually anyway and if it helps us get a better player, then I'm fine with it. If Casey can find a way to take full advantage of this roster, then perhaps it improves the Raptors long-term. But if Colangelo has added another contract that is untradable, I worry that we are running out of tradable assets. We still do not have a first round pick, despite trading two starters - one on an expiring deal and the other on a rookie deal - typically the best returns. I don't think we can fairly grade the trade until we see what move is next. If no move is next, then I'm likely agreeing with the C- mark giving by both ESPN and CnnSI.

    But one thing is clear. Rudy Gay is more talented than the players the Raptors had on their team yesterday. Perhaps that is the only thing that should matter in the end.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Sorry to bombared the forum with threads all relating to the Gay trade - but since the other two threads were postings of pieces from Sports Illustrated, I wanted to have my own opinion piece and how it relates to my previous "Plan" piece.

    If the mods want to combined everything into "All things Gay" then that's fine with me, but I think this is the one topic Raps fans wont be tired of talking about for a while

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    If you leave the contracts out of it, would I be okay with calderon+davis for Gay? Probably. The big issue is the financial impact. We've got new ownership and if they are willing to spend into the tax, than there's no problem. Although what are the odds of that happening?
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Line-Up Consideration? - Gay is only 5 lbs lighter than Thaddeus Young. Raps to play ultimate small ball? Not Casey's prefered style, but as a coach, you have to adapt the strategy to fit the players you have.
    PG: Lowry
    SG: Demar
    SF: Ross
    PF: Gay
    C: Val (need someone to rebound but can still keep up with the pace) - Amir in the interim until JV is healthy.

    I think this may be a line up we see closing games, depending how Bargs plays. While Casey does seem to prefer the more traditional ine up, you can't argue with having four guys on the flor who can all make shots at a reasonnable clip and can all handle the ball to some extent.

    I think we are going to see a lot of isolation play in with Gay here. Weve got Lowry, Gay, and Bargnani who can all potentially make their own shots and are all very tough covers. Demar and Val are also good offensive pieces. Defensively, I think a lot of people are underestimating what Gay can bring. Memphis has long been one of the very elite teams defensively and he has to have picked up some good habits from that. I also read somewhere that with Gay on the floor, Memphis is better defensively than when he's off (no source, I saw it while looking up articles on the trade).

    I think the Ross question is worth asking. He was supposebly untouchable in this deal but I don't see why. We have Gay, Fields, and Demar all signed for pretty big deals, then Anderson as a cheap fourth wing. So unless you bench Fields, which I think won't happen given the fact that he is starting to become productive again, there doesn't look like there is a lot of time for him. Maybe Ross will be moved with Andrea for something, or maybe we're going to see Demar's minutes cut back a bit but this is a little worrysome.

    On a positive note this likely means we will see more Acy. He's played very well so far and has earned to minutes this deal will likely get him.

    It would be nice to move Andrea, and if you could get a first and a bad contract for him from almost any team I'd take it. We'll see what happens.
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    #TradeBargnani

    That's all I hae to say still, though, if he returns to his old self, and sustains it, who knows then. He wont be the #1 scoring choice anymore, so...i dunno.

    I still like Bargs though...

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Raptorboy's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    If you leave the contracts out of it, would I be okay with calderon+davis for Gay? Probably. The big issue is the financial impact. We've got new ownership and if they are willing to spend into the tax, than there's no problem. Although what are the odds of that happening?
    Maybe greater than you think? They opened the vault for the BlueJays....why not the Raptors?

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Raptorboy wrote: View Post
    Maybe greater than you think? They opened the vault for the BlueJays....why not the Raptors?
    Not only were the moves made to improve the teams, but I think ownership really wants to make a statement to return the Toronto franchises to relevance, both in the Toronto/Canada market and within the league. Toronto is an excellent destination, but it's fighting an uphill battle against American misperception and stereotypes (aka American ignorance). Making the team relevant and building around/with well known, established 'name' players, is a good way to improve the team's long-term perception.

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    Quote Raptorboy wrote: View Post
    Maybe greater than you think? They opened the vault for the BlueJays....why not the Raptors?
    I think there is a shot.... But that makes me more nervous. Who knows how bc would spend that type of money... Reality is we need to see how the team looks after bargs is moved. We are talking to much like this is our team, and there is no way that we cntinue with bargs

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    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Not only were the moves made to improve the teams, but I think ownership really wants to make a statement to return the Toronto franchises to relevance, both in the Toronto/Canada market and within the league. Toronto is an excellent destination, but it's fighting an uphill battle against American misperception and stereotypes (aka American ignorance). Making the team relevant and building around/with well known, established 'name' players, is a good way to improve the team's long-term perception.
    i hope this is the case... it is true that winning enviroment goes a long way to sustaining interest among potential free agents & such...if Miami's 2012-13 opening day roster was replaced by our opening day roster the lure of south beach would mean jack shit!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote phiLLy wrote: View Post
    #TradeBargnani

    That's all I hae to say still, though, if he returns to his old self, and sustains it, who knows then. He wont be the #1 scoring choice anymore, so...i dunno.

    I still like Bargs though...
    On that note may I add #TradeDerozan

    Oh, and I don't like his game.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Not only were the moves made to improve the teams, but I think ownership really wants to make a statement to return the Toronto franchises to relevance, both in the Toronto/Canada market and within the league. Toronto is an excellent destination, but it's fighting an uphill battle against American misperception and stereotypes (aka American ignorance). Making the team relevant and building around/with well known, established 'name' players, is a good way to improve the team's long-term perception.
    Here is a good example of the inverse effect of the trade, regarding the changing perceptions of Memphis (from CNNSI.com - fannation.com)

    Message Memphis sends isn't a good one

    Views896Comments38

    08:05 AM ET 01.31 | Consider Rudy Gay as Trade No. 1. The first domino has fallen in the rapidly building trade frenzy leading up to the NBA's Feb. 21 deadline: [Gay] to the Raptors in return for, essentially, $26 million. That's approximately what the Memphis Grizzlies save this season and the next two by parting ways with one of their three highest-paid players -- $26.4 million to be exact. ... "They showed their hand completely," one rival executive said of the Grizzlies. "You can't fool players. They will have a hard time thinking winning is the priority. That erodes consumer confidence in the Association." Winning is important, but tax bills are real. And in my opinion, we've only seen the beginning.

    CBS Sports

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    Winning is profitable when you own the whole value chain as Rogers and Bell do...This smells a lot like the Blue Jays to me...green light to spend on elite level talent...they want to win and they want the downstream revenue that winning brings.

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    we've got to give bargs a shot with this lineup and see if they can all play into the extra pass system. if we have four guys out there who can average 15 a game they should be able to get good looks on every possesion

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    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    Quote mattscottnelson wrote: View Post
    Winning is profitable when you own the whole value chain as Rogers and Bell do...This smells a lot like the Blue Jays to me...green light to spend on elite level talent...they want to win and they want the downstream revenue that winning brings.
    i agree 100% Bell/Rogers paid a hefty sum for MLSE & im sure there planning for a cash cow revenue stream to make up the $ spent on the purchase..making trades like this at the very least generate a buzz that has most fans glued to sportsnet which also benefits the bottom line..Media/entertainment companys arnt going to want a team that isnt marketable

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    Quote d749 wrote: View Post
    we've got to give bargs a shot with this lineup and see if they can all play into the extra pass system. if we have four guys out there who can average 15 a game they should be able to get good looks on every possesion
    NOOO!!! No more "experimentation" with Bargnani (have we not learned our lesson after 7 excruciatingly long years?). He's done. Have to unload him to anyone who shows the slightest glimmer of interest. There is no place for him in the Raptors future. None.

    What's 15 points going to do when he's proven time and time again he can't do anything else on the floor?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    NOOO!!! No more "experimentation" with Bargnani (have we not learned our lesson after 7 excruciatingly long years?). He's done. Have to unload him to anyone who shows the slightest glimmer of interest. There is no place for him in the Raptors future. None.

    What's 15 points going to do when he's proven time and time again he can't do anything else on the floor?
    There is no way that you can run with Lowry, Derozan, Gay and Bargnani getting significant minutes. Too many mouths to feed. Even Jack Armstrong commented on this last night. Lowry/Derozan/Gay with Amir/Val would work better but you have no shooting on the floor with that lineup and no low post game to make up for it.

    Also, big glut on the wing now. Derozan and Gay both play big minutes. There isn't time for Ross/Fields/Anderson. Something needs to be done there as well. Ross needs to be the guy off the bench or he needs to be traded. There is no sense playing him 12 minutes a game.

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    Time to trade Bargnani, Derozan, and if possible Kleiza - for a back-up PG, defensive/rebounding PF, and frist round picks. We can even take back some bad contracts if it gets the Raps some 1st round picks.

    Example: Bargs/DD/Kleiza to Charlotte for Tyrus Thomas, Ben Gordon, and a frist round picks - Charlotte gets a scoring big-man and a young wing (and a lower cost) and removes redundancy of Thomas and Biyombo... Raptors get a defensive back-up PF, a scorer of the bench, and a lottery pick

    Raptors Lineup:
    C - JV, Gray, Haddadi
    PF - Amir, Thomas, Acy
    SF - Gay, Fields, AA
    SG - Ross, Gordon
    PG - Lowry, 2013 draft pick, Lucas
    Last edited by black angus; Thu Jan 31st, 2013 at 03:36 PM.

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    Quote d749 wrote: View Post
    we've got to give bargs a shot with this lineup and see if they can all play into the extra pass system. if we have four guys out there who can average 15 a game they should be able to get good looks on every possesion
    I agree. My only concern is that Lowry may not be the right PG for that style of play. Let's see. We may be in for a surprise.
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    Default What kinda team are we exactly?

    With Rudy Gay now officially a Toronto Raptor, it begs the question: What kinda team are we exactly?. I mean with Gay on the team, we don't really have any cap space and we're reaching the luxury tax soon. This basically means that for the next three years, our team isn't really gonna change much unless we execute big trades. Our roster will hinge upon the core of Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Andrea (if we do decide to keep him), and Val. Our bench can always change, but our starting line-up will most likely not change unless a Bargnani trade happens or if Ross moves to the starting line-up in the next year or two. So back to my question. What team are we? Are we still a fringe-playoff team? Are we an 6-8th seed for the next three years? Will we ever break out of the first round? That's just some of the major concerns with this trade. Will we be stuck in the bottom of the playoffs for 3 years? I guess it all depends on how Derozan, Val, and Ross continue to develop over these next three years. Thoughts?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    I think most people are gonna wait till the trade deadline to evaluate the team. I'm expecting pretty significant changes within the next few weeks.

    But to answer your question: at the moment the raptors are an overpayed 6-10th place team.

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