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Thread: Four players we should target

  1. #41
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Can someone please tell me why everyone wants Demar traded NOW that we have Gay, without having to trade our best wing player before the deal? I'm a little shocked at the number of posters wanting to get Derozan out of town. I get the fact for that it is to trade for a guy like Milsap, but if BC can get Rudy Gay for Ed Davis and Calderon WITHOUT Derozan and Ross, he sure as hell can get a deal involving Bargnani + player without that player being Derozan/Ross.

    Some posters calling him a waste of cap space? C'mon now, he's arguably having his best season as a pro, only 23 years old too. Him and Rudy Gay can really do well if they co-exist, which is likely because Derozan isn't an ego unlike many of the other scorers in the league.

  2. #42
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Can someone please tell me why everyone wants Demar traded NOW that we have Gay
    Gay does a better version of everything DeMar does. Duplication is not effective in terms of running an offense.

    Ross as a great 1 on 1 defender and excellent three point shooter gives a different look and he has to be respected.

    It's not about disliking DeRozan but unless he pulls something else out of the tickle trunk he is redundant.

    Having said all that I love the man and his work ethic.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic All-Star charlesnba23's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Can someone please tell me why everyone wants Demar traded NOW that we have Gay, without having to trade our best wing player before the deal? I'm a little shocked at the number of posters wanting to get Derozan out of town. I get the fact for that it is to trade for a guy like Milsap, but if BC can get Rudy Gay for Ed Davis and Calderon WITHOUT Derozan and Ross, he sure as hell can get a deal involving Bargnani + player without that player being Derozan/Ross.

    Some posters calling him a waste of cap space? C'mon now, he's arguably having his best season as a pro, only 23 years old too. Him and Rudy Gay can really do well if they co-exist, which is likely because Derozan isn't an ego unlike many of the other scorers in the league.
    I totally agree with you on that one. Let's first see what they will be doing together. I would not be happy if the Raptors traded DeRozan before the trade deadline seriously. As you said I'm sure we can get another quality player without giving any of our core players except Bargnani. Maybe we'll need to add Anderson but if it is to give us back a legit starting power forward I'm all for it. But not at the expense of DeMar.

    In the summer I don't say, but as for now, I surely don't want him gone.

  4. #44
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Can someone please tell me why everyone wants Demar traded NOW that we have Gay, without having to trade our best wing player before the deal? I'm a little shocked at the number of posters wanting to get Derozan out of town. I get the fact for that it is to trade for a guy like Milsap, but if BC can get Rudy Gay for Ed Davis and Calderon WITHOUT Derozan and Ross, he sure as hell can get a deal involving Bargnani + player without that player being Derozan/Ross.

    Some posters calling him a waste of cap space? C'mon now, he's arguably having his best season as a pro, only 23 years old too. Him and Rudy Gay can really do well if they co-exist, which is likely because Derozan isn't an ego unlike many of the other scorers in the league.
    I am among those posters now calling for DeRozan to be traded, for several reasons:

    1. The skills that Gay & DeRozan bring to the table are redundant, with neither of them being excellent 3pt shooters or lock-down perimeter defenders. Ross already seems to fit better with Gay than DeRozan does, and he will only continue to improve. Even Fields provides better perimiter defense than DeRozan and doesn't need to get nearly as many shots as DeRozan would demand (Gay and Lowry are top 2 scoring options, and a legit starting PF would become #3, which would push DeRozan to 4th option on offense and playing off the ball is not a strength of his).

    2. This team needs a backup PG (which Bargnani can hopefully return in trade) and a starting PF (so Amir can be backup PF). DeRozan would seem a likely candidate (age, salary, skill, potential) to be traded for this starting PF - Millsap is just one option mentioned, since he's an expiring contract, Utah is loaded at C/PF positions and is desperately in need of wing help. You need to giveup talent to get talent, so I'd much prefer an equal young talent to DeRozan at the PF position (trade from a position of strength to address a position of weakness).

    3. Way too much money tied-up in wings. Gay was acquired to be starting SF and cornerstone of the future. Ross is "untouchable", should become better than DeRozan (if he isn't already), fits better with Gay and is much cheaper than DeRozan. Fields is likely untradeable, due to his salary, down year and injury, plus he's a good glue guy and defender (good balance to a wing rotation of Gay & Ross). If Gay & Ross are the future starters, it makes no sense to pay a backup (DeRozan) $9.5M per season over the next 3 years, especially when it could be much more effectively used to pay a legit starting PF.

  5. #45
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I am among those posters now calling for DeRozan to be traded, for several reasons:

    1. The skills that Gay & DeRozan bring to the table are redundant, with neither of them being excellent 3pt shooters or lock-down perimeter defenders. Ross already seems to fit better with Gay than DeRozan does, and he will only continue to improve. Even Fields provides better perimiter defense than DeRozan and doesn't need to get nearly as many shots as DeRozan would demand (Gay and Lowry are top 2 scoring options, and a legit starting PF would become #3, which would push DeRozan to 4th option on offense and playing off the ball is not a strength of his).

    2. This team needs a backup PG (which Bargnani can hopefully return in trade) and a starting PF (so Amir can be backup PF). DeRozan would seem a likely candidate (age, salary, skill, potential) to be traded for this starting PF - Millsap is just one option mentioned, since he's an expiring contract, Utah is loaded at C/PF positions and is desperately in need of wing help. You need to giveup talent to get talent, so I'd much prefer an equal young talent to DeRozan at the PF position (trade from a position of strength to address a position of weakness).

    3. Way too much money tied-up in wings. Gay was acquired to be starting SF and cornerstone of the future. Ross is "untouchable", should become better than DeRozan (if he isn't already), fits better with Gay and is much cheaper than DeRozan. Fields is likely untradeable, due to his salary, down year and injury, plus he's a good glue guy and defender (good balance to a wing rotation of Gay & Ross). If Gay & Ross are the future starters, it makes no sense to pay a backup (DeRozan) $9.5M per season over the next 3 years, especially when it could be much more effectively used to pay a legit starting PF.
    I don't believe in the "They're the same guy, they won't do much." Demar Derozan is a slasher, Rudy Gay is a shot creator. I'm not willing to trade Derozan because first, he's shown tons of improvement to get to where he is now. Second, Gay is going to be planned for by the opposition, and I'd rather not have the point guard be the second option of the offense REGARDLESS of who it is - Westbrook in OKC is a great example - and Derozan is going to be a guy that takes pressure off of Gay. Allow the two guys to play off one another. I just want to see a sample size where both their similar styles of play just can't co-exist. Quite frankly, I don't see it being hard too. Derozan isn't an ego, and we all have to remember that. He's going to play within' the system, Derozan doesn't break plays, and I think with the situation now, it's better his scoring opportunities come off the open court , and from plays ran for him in the low post, off screens, etc.
    If Gay is getting attention, get Derozan and Gay involved in a two man game. Gay getting doubled? Send the ball to the open guy, or allow Derozan to be the second option. If both are playing well, pick your poison. Just my opinion on why keeping Derozan is key. Having a good perimeter team and a great point guard is almost a daily need for a team to be successful in the league now.

    I know about having to give up talent, to acquire talent. But Colangelo was able to acquire Rudy Gay for Ed Davis, and Jose Calderon. As much as Toronto, and us fans love those two guys to death, they aren't star potential players. They aren't going to be guys that take teams to another level. Rudy Gay is that guy. I really do believe if BC can acquire Rudy Gay without having to send Ross/JV/Derozan/Johnson out, I'm confident he can do the same to acquire a guy a team is desperately trying to move.
    What if we do acquire Millsap for Derozan + Bargnani? Sure, we clear up around 8$ million (this is assuming trade is made with other players/teams to make salaries match), but, Millsap walks out the door, and we are at free agency. Like many have said, we aren't a free agency destination at this point. After this season, we've rented an answer to our short-term problems, but not long term. Not to mention Lowry next year is set for an extension, likely near or less than Demar is making now.

    Addressing the last two points, I believe a Bargnani/Anderson/Pietrus/Kleiza trade can make something to address bringing in another PF, and a PG. Similar to the trade with the Lakers, except the pieces we send are different. We do have quite a bit of money in our wings, but when you have a very solid, young, high potential rotation between Gay/Derozan/Ross/Fields, there's necessarily no need to go hunting for a wing player, UNLESS the RIGHT deal comes and we are able to net a player who is better. Aaron Afflalo isn't a guy I would enjoy getting, only because Derozan has taken this guy to school this season. Afflalo has almost been a non-factor against the Raptors despite having a 20 point game. A guy like Chandler Parsons, Gordon Hayward, Danny Granger, Iman Shumpert, Danilo Gallinari... Those are names I would possibly take over Derozan.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    we don't need another wing. We have more than enough for a lifetime.

    Gay, Demar, Ross, AA, Fields, Kleiza, Pietrus

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    we don't need another wing. We have more than enough for a lifetime.

    Gay, Demar, Ross, AA, Fields, Kleiza, Pietrus
    Use amnesty provision on Kleiza in off-season, let Pietrus walk, and let the minutes divide with Gay/Derozan/Ross/Fields/Anderson.

    Lowry/Lucas
    Derozan/Ross/Anderson*
    Gay/Fields/Anderson*
    Bargnani/Johnson/Acy
    Valanciunas/Gray

    #TradeBargnani along with Fields or Anderson, and acquire PF/PG or both.

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    I wouldn't trade demar as well. I think that with a legit 3 demar should be posting up as much as possible. it will be much harder to double demar now. with the way he has been passing the ball lately I would like to see him give it a shot.

    defenses are going to have to guard gay tight. he takes a lot of difficult shots because if they are easy ones he hits them.

    best thing that can happen now is gay comes in and lowry finds a way to get them both points.

    I really think bargs has a chance here now. I think that bc has publicly shown he is willing to move bargs but is hoping he can preform. this delegates him to spot up shooter.

    if he draws the 4 out and demar takes the 2 in. jv and demar will usually have a rebound advantage to offset the bargs effect. lowry can break down most guards and then has the option to go alone pass to demar for a mismatch, bargs for spot up 3(his most useful use) easy basket putback with jv or if all breaks down out to gay for a play saver.

    gay gives us the option where a last second shot clock attempt has a better shot of making it.

    don't have the stats but if someone were Nice enough to break down How many of gays shots come in the final 3-7 seconds of a shot clock it might be interesting.

    I know that sounds like I am making excuses for his shooting but I am not, just curious.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    amnesty Klieza waive Pietrus include Anderson in a trade, Sign Vince Carter in the off season if Dallas lets him go if not go after Chandler cheap or just sign Kris Joseph and have him develop behind Gay alongside Ross off the bench. I have no idea what to say about Fields good defender though.


    we need a big and we need a backup PG

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    Andrew Nicholson

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    Or josh smith

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    1. The skills that Gay & DeRozan bring to the table are redundant, with neither of them being excellent 3pt shooters or lock-down perimeter defenders. Ross already seems to fit better with Gay than DeRozan does, and he will only continue to improve. Even Fields provides better perimiter defense than DeRozan and doesn't need to get nearly as many shots as DeRozan would demand (Gay and Lowry are top 2 scoring options, and a legit starting PF would become #3, which would push DeRozan to 4th option on offense and playing off the ball is not a strength of his).
    i agree with this the most...

    i like Derozan, but a starting lineup with lowry, derozan, and gay... that's alot of penetration with little outside shooting options..

    unless you want to keep barganani?

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    I don't believe in the "They're the same guy, they won't do much." Demar Derozan is a slasher, Rudy Gay is a shot creator. I'm not willing to trade Derozan because first, he's shown tons of improvement to get to where he is now. Second, Gay is going to be planned for by the opposition, and I'd rather not have the point guard be the second option of the offense REGARDLESS of who it is - Westbrook in OKC is a great example - and Derozan is going to be a guy that takes pressure off of Gay. Allow the two guys to play off one another. I just want to see a sample size where both their similar styles of play just can't co-exist. Quite frankly, I don't see it being hard too. Derozan isn't an ego, and we all have to remember that. He's going to play within' the system, Derozan doesn't break plays, and I think with the situation now, it's better his scoring opportunities come off the open court , and from plays ran for him in the low post, off screens, etc.
    If Gay is getting attention, get Derozan and Gay involved in a two man game. Gay getting doubled? Send the ball to the open guy, or allow Derozan to be the second option. If both are playing well, pick your poison. Just my opinion on why keeping Derozan is key. Having a good perimeter team and a great point guard is almost a daily need for a team to be successful in the league now.
    Opposing defences are going to be able to pack the paint against a line-up that features Demar and Gay as the two wingers. Once they do that, there wont be any space for either slasher to get to the rim. They will then settle for long two pointers, which are statistically speaking the worst shot in basketball. If either could develop a consistent outside shot (corner 3) then it would change the dynamic greatly. Factor in that Lowry is a drive and kick PG and you have 3 players that all want to attack the rim but without a legit deep threat to create that space.

    Bargnani might be the necessary evil for this line-up to work as he is the only Raptor that has proven he can hit open 3's. Ross may be that guy, but unless they move Gay to the 4 or Demar to the bench, Ross isn't going to impact that lineup no matter how well he shoots (since he'll be on the bench).

    You also said that Gay was a "shot creator", which is only true in an iso sense. He can create his own shot (something this team has lacked) and that may well help in close games but in general, he doesn't create shots for others unless the defence has to collapse on his drive, thus creating the open deep shot that we have no current starter capable of hitting consistently. The only way this works with both Demar and Gay starting on the wings is if Lowry turns into a perimeter jump shooter (thus limiting his natural talents and game) or Bargnani returns and shoots the lights out.

    The Raps need a legit shooter - Ross looks like the best of the bunch. Start Ross over Demar and let Demar be the 6th man microwave that he is likely best suited for. Otherwise, trading for a shooter makes sense (Wesley Mathews from Portland?).

  14. #54
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    Derrick Williams SF/PF Minnesota
    Derrick Williams shoots below 40% as a starter this year (59-161, including 10-30 for threes). He's a tweener. Considering we already very good depth at the wings and that I believe Amir is and will remain a better player than Derick Williams for this year and next, I don't see what role would Derrick Williams play on the Raptors.

    Wilson Chandler SG/SF Denver
    I believe Wilson Chandler is a better player than DeRozan, Fields, and Ross, but well below Gay. The problem is whose place would he take? I have a hard time imagining Denver taking on Fields or DeRozan contracts in exchange for a SG/SF whose contract is reasonable. I can see them taking Ross instead but I am leery of trading our only wing who I think has a good chance of becoming a superior 3-point shooter.

    Paul Millsap PF Utah
    I would be surprised if The Spin Doctor has not already inquired about Paul Millsap. He would be a good addition if we could get him at a reasonable price. I would not overpay for him because I believe he has already reached his ceiling.

    Steve Blake PG Lakers
    I am OK for pursuing a backup PG of Steve Blake's caliber. Not necessarily Steve Blake, just any excess PG of similar value.

  15. #55
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    I don't believe in the "They're the same guy, they won't do much." Demar Derozan is a slasher, Rudy Gay is a shot creator. I'm not willing to trade Derozan because first, he's shown tons of improvement to get to where he is now. Second, Gay is going to be planned for by the opposition, and I'd rather not have the point guard be the second option of the offense REGARDLESS of who it is - Westbrook in OKC is a great example - and Derozan is going to be a guy that takes pressure off of Gay. Allow the two guys to play off one another. I just want to see a sample size where both their similar styles of play just can't co-exist. Quite frankly, I don't see it being hard too. Derozan isn't an ego, and we all have to remember that. He's going to play within' the system, Derozan doesn't break plays, and I think with the situation now, it's better his scoring opportunities come off the open court , and from plays ran for him in the low post, off screens, etc.
    If Gay is getting attention, get Derozan and Gay involved in a two man game. Gay getting doubled? Send the ball to the open guy, or allow Derozan to be the second option. If both are playing well, pick your poison. Just my opinion on why keeping Derozan is key. Having a good perimeter team and a great point guard is almost a daily need for a team to be successful in the league now.

    I know about having to give up talent, to acquire talent. But Colangelo was able to acquire Rudy Gay for Ed Davis, and Jose Calderon. As much as Toronto, and us fans love those two guys to death, they aren't star potential players. They aren't going to be guys that take teams to another level. Rudy Gay is that guy. I really do believe if BC can acquire Rudy Gay without having to send Ross/JV/Derozan/Johnson out, I'm confident he can do the same to acquire a guy a team is desperately trying to move.
    What if we do acquire Millsap for Derozan + Bargnani? Sure, we clear up around 8$ million (this is assuming trade is made with other players/teams to make salaries match), but, Millsap walks out the door, and we are at free agency. Like many have said, we aren't a free agency destination at this point. After this season, we've rented an answer to our short-term problems, but not long term. Not to mention Lowry next year is set for an extension, likely near or less than Demar is making now.

    Addressing the last two points, I believe a Bargnani/Anderson/Pietrus/Kleiza trade can make something to address bringing in another PF, and a PG. Similar to the trade with the Lakers, except the pieces we send are different. We do have quite a bit of money in our wings, but when you have a very solid, young, high potential rotation between Gay/Derozan/Ross/Fields, there's necessarily no need to go hunting for a wing player, UNLESS the RIGHT deal comes and we are able to net a player who is better. Aaron Afflalo isn't a guy I would enjoy getting, only because Derozan has taken this guy to school this season. Afflalo has almost been a non-factor against the Raptors despite having a 20 point game. A guy like Chandler Parsons, Gordon Hayward, Danny Granger, Iman Shumpert, Danilo Gallinari... Those are names I would possibly take over Derozan.
    +1 this is bang on

    I should say first that I don't really like Derozan's game and hated the contract so I would have rather traded him and not signed him but since we're stuck where we are....

    I actually think that this trade will HELP derozan. Like you said, Gay is a shot creator. So is Lowry. Derozan can now move to what he really should be....a third option on a team who can get to the line. He doesn't have an ego (like you said) so he'll fit in nicely wherever they put him.

    We have such a logjam of mediocre players that if we can trade two ok players for one good one (i.e. derozan and bargnani for millsap) its a great deal. That's what I liked about the Calderon deal.

    Of the players listed, I would like to have milsap because he fits into the current culture of our team (grind out effort every night) Plus he hits 3's at a better rate than bargnani. Blake, Williams and Chandler are all fine, but I would rather stick with Ross as the wing of the future.

  16. #56
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    People may also talk about BC's inability to get value for trades?

    Key Trade history:

    Roko Ukic for Sonny Weems, Amir Johnson.
    Devean George for Marco Bellinelli.
    Hedo Turkoglu for Leandro Barbosa.
    Jason Kapono for Reggie Evans.
    Jarret Jack, Marcus Banks, David Anderson for expiring contract Peja Stojakavic, and Jerryd Bayless.
    James Johnson (Head-case, and unwanted) for a 2nd Round pick.
    Leandro Barbosa for 2nd Round Pick (ending up being Quincy Acy)
    Gary Forbes + protected 1st round pick for Kyle Lowry.
    Jose Calderon, Ed Davis + 2nd round pick for Rudy Gay, Hamed Haddadi.

    Ever since after BC made the very questionable and future hampering trade for O'neal, I think it's safe to say I'm confident in BC making trades. He's gotten us some key pieces in past teams, and it really looks like we've won every single one of the these trades. Colangelo will be able to get us another key piece without having to trade some of our key assets Derozan/Ross/JV/Amir. (Lowry and Gay are not getting traded.)

  17. #57
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    People may also talk about BC's inability to get value for trades?

    Key Trade history:

    Roko Ukic for Sonny Weems, Amir Johnson.
    Devean George for Marco Bellinelli.
    Hedo Turkoglu for Leandro Barbosa.
    Jason Kapono for Reggie Evans.
    Jarret Jack, Marcus Banks, David Anderson for expiring contract Peja Stojakavic, and Jerryd Bayless.
    James Johnson (Head-case, and unwanted) for a 2nd Round pick.
    Leandro Barbosa for 2nd Round Pick (ending up being Quincy Acy)
    Gary Forbes + protected 1st round pick for Kyle Lowry.
    Jose Calderon, Ed Davis + 2nd round pick for Rudy Gay, Hamed Haddadi.

    Ever since after BC made the very questionable and future hampering trade for O'neal, I think it's safe to say I'm confident in BC making trades. He's gotten us some key pieces in past teams, and it really looks like we've won every single one of the these trades. Colangelo will be able to get us another key piece without having to trade some of our key assets Derozan/Ross/JV/Amir. (Lowry and Gay are not getting traded.)
    It was Carlos Delfino & Roko Ukic. For years I hated that trade, because Delfino's defense & 3pt shooting were sorely missed.

    I don't think there's any possible way that Bargnani and garbage (ie: Gray, Haddadi, Acy, Anderson, Kleiza, Pietrus, Lucaus or even Fields) would ever return a legit, talented, young starting PF (ie: at the level of players Raps fan want - Gasol, Millsap, J Smith, etc...).

    I still see no point paying DeRozan $9.5M to be a 6th man. That money is much better spent acquiring an equal talent who will start at PF. Trading DeRozan wouldn't even weaken the wing rotation, since the Raps would still have Gay, Ross and Fields (and possibly Anderson too).

  18. #58
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    It was Carlos Delfino & Roko Ukic. For years I hated that trade, because Delfino's defense & 3pt shooting were sorely missed.

    I don't think there's any possible way that Bargnani and garbage (ie: Gray, Haddadi, Acy, Anderson, Kleiza, Pietrus, Lucaus or even Fields) would ever return a legit, talented, young starting PF.

    I still see no point paying DeRozan $9.5M to be a 6th man. That money is much better spent acquiring an equal talent who will start at PF. Trading DeRozan wouldn't even weaken the wing rotation, since the Raps would still have Gay, Ross and Fields (and possibly Anderson too).
    I disagree with him not weakening the rotation. Ross is still a rookie, Anderson is a still a little unstable and very selfish at times, along with Fields who is still questionable despite his rebounding, defense, and energy.

    I say give Demar Derozan and Rudy Gay sample time to play together before they finally prove they just can't co-exist. Although, while I do somewhat agree in the fact that Bargnani + [players mentioned above] may not acquire a proven, all-star type power forward, it has enough value to return a prospect big man with a vet point guard which I would rather bring in, than an expiring contract likely to walk. Bargnani's time is over in Toronto, but he's no scrub, and is a player with value regardless of the way he is playing.

    Luke Ridnour + Derrick Williams.
    Udrih + Henson/Udoh.

    Above are some quick examples.

    To the bold above, we already have Amir Johnson, who's proven he can actually improve despite speculation he wasn't going to get better at all, and a double-double player when a starter. Quincy Acy in sample time has given this team some really impressive minutes. Energy, shot-blocker, rebounder, and a fair offensive player with the ability to finish in contact, and hit the mid-range shot. His ceiling is very low, but having a Reggie Evans type player - which is sort of is - will help this team moving forward. Bring in a prospect player to build into that, and allow a veteran point guard to help Lowry if playing un-controlled, and to slow a tempo down/get guys involved.
    Last edited by ReubenJRD; Fri Feb 1st, 2013 at 01:49 PM.

  19. #59
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Lebron James
    Chris Bosh
    Dwight Howard
    Chris Paul

  20. #60
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    We should try to pry T Rob or J Thompson from Sac town.

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