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Thread: This franchise is finally going in the right direction!

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote phiLLy wrote: View Post
    I think it'll go in the right direction, if Bargs/DD/Kleiza, and the other dead-weight players are moved for something worth-while.
    Why would other teams trade the Raptors good players for ones that you yourself describe as deadweight?

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Superstar FoxMachine's Avatar
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    wow it just hurt so bad to read jose's tweet and see his hashtag at the end #pistons so weird

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Quote FoxMachine wrote: View Post
    wow it just hurt so bad to read jose's tweet and see his hashtag at the end #pistons so weird

    jose manuel calderon ‏@josemcalderon8
    Busy day getting to Detroit. Tired but happy for the welcome. Great day with organization. Tomorrow meeting new teammates. #pistons

    Ya I know what you mean it was very surreal like really hes gone???

  4. #44
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    It's good to see someone who likes this transaction.

    I feel that this transaction is a huge mistake: that it removed the best (Calderon) and one of the best (Davis) players from the Raptors in return for a famous Gay mediocrity. I detest it so much that I am going to be a fair weather fan, and am going to sign off for the next few months, rather than watch what I feel will be the inevitable losses that will ensue.

    If you can be that dumb with a trade, why should I suffer through watching the pain that ensues. I'll tune in next year to see how Valanciunas is coming along.
    Is this guy serious? lol...Have you been watching raptors basketball for the last few years?? Jose our best player? Well that makes a hell of a lot sense as to why we haven't made the players if he's been our "best player".

    Christ , thank goodness we finally were able to cash in on him. Realistically if we made this trade at the start of the season it wouldve of been the trade of the year.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote C-Low wrote: View Post
    Is this guy serious? lol...Have you been watching raptors basketball for the last few years?? Jose our best player? Well that makes a hell of a lot sense as to why we haven't made the players if he's been our "best player".

    Christ , thank goodness we finally were able to cash in on him. Realistically if we made this trade at the start of the season it wouldve of been the trade of the year.
    Yeah, like Kenny Smith said, if we had everyone healthy, and had this lineup at the beginning of the season, we likely would've won A LOT more games.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Starter Fanchie's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    jose manuel calderon ‏@josemcalderon8
    Busy day getting to Detroit. Tired but happy for the welcome. Great day with organization. Tomorrow meeting new teammates. #pistons

    Ya I know what you mean it was very surreal like really hes gone???
    Think about it : when Jose landed in Toronto, neither Twitter nor Facebook even existed...

  7. #47
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    Quote FoxMachine wrote: View Post
    Karma owes us
    I agree. Time will tell if this is a good thing or not, but we have blood on our hands. We will pay for how we've handled Jose. We will pay for not trading up for Tristan. We might even pay for giving up on Ed Davis. We've proved we are not loyal. We have proved we don't make good decisions. We have proved we have perfected the "rebuilding" excuse. Two wrongs don't make a right. I wonder what 18 years of wrongs will equal.
    Last edited by RepRaptorsintheUSA; Fri Feb 1st, 2013 at 03:36 AM. Reason: Learning

  8. #48
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Why would other teams trade the Raptors good players for ones that you yourself describe as deadweight?
    BC has traded worse before, haha.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I would be ok with this move....but I don't think the Lakers would want it. And I don't think they'd take back both Demar and Bargs. I know the Lakers may not find a huge market for Gasol, but I think the Lakers are always in a position where they never make a trade just to make a trade. They are pretty much always winners in their trade. Bargs and Anderson isn't enough for them to be able to go to their fanbase and say "now we're back on track to a championship".

    What do you think of this, Matt? This is your trade, somewhat, then expanded to include Atlanta, where LAL get Smith and Bargnani, as well as Gray for a large body insurance behind Howard.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=d7qse5e

    -Minny gets the same as before, plus Alan Anderson, since they're thin at the wings.
    -With Smith and Bargs in LA, they won't mind not getting an extra wing like Alan. In the offense, Bargs can sit at the perimter like a 3, and they can run screens with Nash and Smith/Howard. If they want an extra wing, maybe Alan does go here instead...not dealbreaker issue really.
    -Atlanta gets a promising replacement for Smith in Williams, and a decent prospect for a utility forward in Clark (always liked him and thought he just needed a chance to play). Roy can be waived or whatever htey do when he's forced to retire again from injury.
    -Toronto gets Peko, a stopgap option at C as JV develops. Instead if Barea, I prefer Ridnour. I'd be happy with either, but I think Ridnour is a better spot up shooter, and offers that nice slowdown pace. I think with Ridnour, you try and develop Gay, Demar and Ross to play with the ball more when he's on the court, because Barea monopolizes the ball more as a score-first guard. As for Sacre...he's just hometown filler. I could easily see it being a PF, maybe Tolliver from Atlanta, to backup Amir for the rest of the season.

    The only problem with mine vs. yours I think is that I can't find a way to get the extra 5 million off our books that Roy would offer. But other than that, it's not really that I like it more (other than Ridnour over Barea), but that I think LA will be looking for something like this.
    Hey it is as good as anyone's stab at the trade machine.

    I don't know if ATL gets enough for Smith though, imo.
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  10. #50
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Hey it is as good as anyone's stab at the trade machine.

    I don't know if ATL gets enough for Smith though, imo.
    Atlanta has dubious ownership and no clear plan to bild this team for the future. Is a core of Horford, Lou Williams and Teague really very good? I figure Atlanta would be pretty happy if in exchange for Smith they got Williams, who could actually be a better scorer next to Horford, but obviously lacks in some of the hustle areas. Then Earl Clark I reallly do think is a really nice piece as a backup forward. That's 2 solid young pieces on their rookie deals. Roy's contract is dealt with when he retires. I suppose I also assume that if any team needs sweetening, like ATL, a draft pick can probably be sent their way, and really, they're the only ones with the right to demand one for the star they're sending out in his prime.
    They don't need to worry about being a great team now if they trade Josh Smith, and doubt they'd take a big contract. I really think if they could get a 1st rd pick, maybe Minnesota's if they have it to trade, 2 young pieces and a pick is a great haul for a guy who's never made an all-star game.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Fri Feb 1st, 2013 at 10:02 AM.

  11. #51
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    I question the basketball IQ of people who think this trade somehow benefited the Raptors in the short, or long term.

  12. #52
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    Quote nubreed000 wrote: View Post
    I question the basketball IQ of people who think this trade somehow benefited the Raptors in the short, or long term.
    How can you say that without seeing the whole situation through? Your comment is short sighted and no one can truly make a comment until the team comes together and plays. What if bargs and demar or another wing player gets moved for a player like milsap for example? Would you still think the same?

  13. #53
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    Yes I would.

    Gay hasn't done anything in Memphis and his productivity has declined. He's a ball stopper and not very good on defense. How will his presence benefit this team and it's youth? Now we have 2 ball hogs on this team in Lowry and Gay. I guess Derozan, Ross and JV should learn by watching? If we acquire Milsap then I guess that'll improve the team to "slightly above average" which is good enough for another first round exit. This is another one of Colangelo's moves where he takes some s*** and tries to mix it together hoping that it sticks.

    Terrible trade...and using the argument that we now have "an All Star quality player" is grasping at straws. He's barely All Star calibre, and even that isn't much of a complement. Gilbert Arenas was an All Star once too. Big deal.

    Whatever though...the team was playing poorly so a knee jerk reaction was necessary to give fans, media and owners the illusion of doing something about it. Plus we got "something" back for Calderon's expiring contract, so Colangelo can pat himself on the back. Meanwhile, Ed Davis will be tearing it up for years to come.

    edit: To be honest with you, I'm mostly pissed about trading away Ed Davis for a "quick-fix" solution that won't really bring anything spectacular.
    Last edited by nubreed000; Fri Feb 1st, 2013 at 12:07 PM.

  14. #54
    Raptors Republic Rookie vino's Avatar
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    Quote RepRaptorsintheUSA wrote: View Post
    I agree. Time will tell if this is a good thing or not, but we have blood on our hands. We will pay for how we've handled Jose. We will pay for not trading up for Tristan. We might even pay for giving up on Ed Davis. We've proved we are not loyal. We have proved we don't make good decisions. We have proved we have perfected the "rebuilding" excuse. Two wrongs don't make a right. I wonder what 18 years of wrongs will equal.
    Dude, you need to seriously chill out - "blood on our hands"?! As for this "being loyal" bs, all I can say that this is business. Players get paid enormous amounts. Being traded is just a part of the gig. Raptors fans should be concerned with our team and keep the focus of getting better... which we did in this trade.

    On a separate note, "Davis will be tearing it up for years to come" - great if that's the case. Good for him! If both, Memphis and Raps end up benefiting from this trade - nothing's wrong with that.

  15. #55
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    Quote nubreed000 wrote: View Post
    Yes I would.
    a
    Gy hasn't done anything in Memphis and his productivity has declined. He's a ball stopper and not very good on defense. How will his presence benefit this team and it's youth? Now we have 2 ball hogs on this team in Lowry and Gay. I guess Derozan, Ross and JV should learn by watching? If we acquire Milsap then I guess that'll improve the team to "slightly above average" which is good enough for another first round exit. This is another one of Colangelo's moves where he takes some s*** and tries to mix it together hoping that it sticks.

    Terrible trade...and using the argument that we now have "an All Star quality player" is grasping at straws. He's barely All Star calibre, and even that isn't much of a complement. Gilbert Arenas was an All Star once too. Big deal.

    Whatever though...the team was playing poorly so a knee jerk reaction was necessary to give fans, media and owners the illusion of doing something about it. Plus we got "something" back for Calderon's expiring contract, so Colangelo can pat himself on the back. Meanwhile, Ed Davis will be tearing it up for years to come.

    edit: To be honest with you, I'm mostly pissed about trading away Ed Davis for a "quick-fix" solution that won't really bring anything spectacular.
    I think we were all pissed, but you need to realize that what made ED so great is that he was on a rookie deal. When he comes off, how much would you give him, given that we pay Amir a lot to pretty much do the same thing.

    For the most part though, I think that you're points are a little off. Lowry is not a hog. Maybe his shot selection is poor but he is definitely not a hog.

    I also think that your assessment of Gay is not accurate. His production definitely declined, but we can't know how much of that is due to a team that was using him as a 3rd option...

    Like most people who hate this trade (and I think we've seen its about 50-50), you are presuming that because Gay played a certain way the past couple of years, he will continue to play that way, and I just don't think that this is true.

    Putting a player in a different situation can make a huge difference. Look at James Harden for example. Look at alan anderson. Javal Mcgee.

    There are several factors which effect a player's production that have nothing to do with talent. Coaching, chemistry with teammates, etc. all have a huge impact. Mark Jackson took over basically the same team that didnt play defense for the past few years and made every player thrive. Popovich does it all the time (matt Bonner anyone?)

    All I am saying is that you can very well be right, but we have no idea how Gay will do on a different team, playing small ball sometimes, where the offense is more up tempo and centered around him.

    This may have been a knee jerk reaction, but I am struggling to see how we get worse after this trade.

  16. #56
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    Just to comment on the main thread topic:

    I am also really excited about just the CHANGE

    You know why people hate this trade? they hate the idea that "the plan" that we thought we were moving according to is no longer in place. We got used to Jose Calderon and his style of basketball. We were just starting to rationalize how ED was going to be the starting PF of the future.

    Now, we gambled that all away on a different idea and people hate that.

    For those who hate the trade, just think about how we have Rudy Gay on our team. How is that a bad thing? We traded away Calderon (and I know...I love him too), but given our record with him...how is that a bad thing?

    I'm really excited about this trade and if we make a couple more moves, we can be a perennial playoff team and I just don't understand why anyone would be upset about that

  17. #57
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    What do you think of this, Matt? This is your trade, somewhat, then expanded to include Atlanta, where LAL get Smith and Bargnani, as well as Gray for a large body insurance behind Howard.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=d7qse5e

    -Minny gets the same as before, plus Alan Anderson, since they're thin at the wings.
    -With Smith and Bargs in LA, they won't mind not getting an extra wing like Alan. In the offense, Bargs can sit at the perimter like a 3, and they can run screens with Nash and Smith/Howard. If they want an extra wing, maybe Alan does go here instead...not dealbreaker issue really.
    -Atlanta gets a promising replacement for Smith in Williams, and a decent prospect for a utility forward in Clark (always liked him and thought he just needed a chance to play). Roy can be waived or whatever htey do when he's forced to retire again from injury.
    -Toronto gets Peko, a stopgap option at C as JV develops. Instead if Barea, I prefer Ridnour. I'd be happy with either, but I think Ridnour is a better spot up shooter, and offers that nice slowdown pace. I think with Ridnour, you try and develop Gay, Demar and Ross to play with the ball more when he's on the court, because Barea monopolizes the ball more as a score-first guard. As for Sacre...he's just hometown filler. I could easily see it being a PF, maybe Tolliver from Atlanta, to backup Amir for the rest of the season.
    A strange trade when taking it in isolation.

    That would leave Amir Johnson and Quincy Acy as the only true power forwards. I am not comfortable with Quincy Acy playing starter minutes for starter minutes if Amir is not available for more than just a game or two.

    Our centers would be Nikola Pekovic, Jonas Valanciunas, Hamed Haddadi, and Robert Sacre, all true centers, not PF-C type. Sacre and Haddadi would be "DNP - Inactive" or "DNP - Coach's Decision" when Jonas returns. We would have to trade Pekovic as soon as he becomes a UFA as he will receive a starter money offer.

  18. #58
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    Far from that and I'm glad some of Raptors fans do understand that. First of all, its another obvious prove Raptors has wrong understanding of what is the most important in basketball - it's TEAM sport. Raptors just can't figure it out this simple thing. They invested in Bargs, DD, Ross - all player fall to the category of extreamely uneffective player, specially first two because of their obvious inability to play for the team instead of them selves. Now they trade two players that are true team players (who needs these different rats in the ship right?) for another player who will only look after his own shots. Raptors became even wors TEAM PLAY group of people instantly. PASSING is the most important and the key thing in basketball by far. Even MJ knew when he MUST pass the ball. So now Raptors doesn't have passing players in 1, 2, 3, 4 positions. KL is not a good passer as well. I'm sorry, but Raptors is getting worse and worse and they are not about to change their strategy, culture, philosphy and understanding. They actually got a brilliant in JV who BTW will be a decent passer when pan out, but he also was taken as "defensive mentor" in the draft. In other words your GM will get JV's IQ, talent, leadership by mistake JV is another different rat in sinking ship. To sum, Raptors philosphy is "defence and player that can go to the basket", while it will be the case Raptors never will be serious team. Actually Landry Fields might be the your best player (till JV pan out) on the roster now, since he's maybe the one left playing team ball...Unfortunately his talent level is pretty low...

    Raptors fan's sugnature should be "we need a change of culture"...

  19. #59
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    I think we were all pissed, but you need to realize that what made ED so great is that he was on a rookie deal. When he comes off, how much would you give him, given that we pay Amir a lot to pretty much do the same thing.

    For the most part though, I think that you're points are a little off. Lowry is not a hog. Maybe his shot selection is poor but he is definitely not a hog.
    I think signing Davis to an extension in the $7-8 million dollar range would have been fine assuming that his production remained static throughout the next year and a half. Davis could have teamed with JV as the starting frontcourt and Amir could continue being the first big off the bench in the do-everything role that is capable of playing both C and PF.

    I'm not sure you can say that Lowry is definitely not a hog. Watching him play through the first ~20 games of the season, after he was "given the keys" or whatever, was pretty painful at times. Lots of hero ball. Lots of bad shots. The team even called him out after the Utah game for selfish play so I don't think the ball hog moniker is too far off the mark, or at least it hasn't been so far during his tenure in Toronto.

    I also think that your assessment of Gay is not accurate. His production definitely declined, but we can't know how much of that is due to a team that was using him as a 3rd option...

    Like most people who hate this trade (and I think we've seen its about 50-50), you are presuming that because Gay played a certain way the past couple of years, he will continue to play that way, and I just don't think that this is true.

    Putting a player in a different situation can make a huge difference. Look at James Harden for example. Look at alan anderson. Javal Mcgee.

    There are several factors which effect a player's production that have nothing to do with talent. Coaching, chemistry with teammates, etc. all have a huge impact. Mark Jackson took over basically the same team that didnt play defense for the past few years and made every player thrive. Popovich does it all the time (matt Bonner anyone?)

    All I am saying is that you can very well be right, but we have no idea how Gay will do on a different team, playing small ball sometimes, where the offense is more up tempo and centered around him.

    This may have been a knee jerk reaction, but I am struggling to see how we get worse after this trade.
    The Raptors may have gotten better after the trade, but I would argue that it is marginally. The real downside to the transaction, and the reason that most people dislike it, is that it basically ties the team's hands when it comes to further improvements for the next few years. They are pushed to the brink of the cap, have no first rounder this season, and are stuck trying to turn pieces like Bargnani, Kleiza and Anderson into tangible assets (which I wouldn't hold my breathe for).

    The narrative about Rudy Gay being liberated from the staunch offensive system in Memphis are overblown as well. He was averaging the highest usage rate of his career this season and still leading the team in field goal attempts. Even if you want to go back a few seasons to when Randolph and Gasol weren't on the roster and Gay was the clear cut #1 option, he was still an inefficient player. By the way, those Memphis teams that had Gay propped up as a "centrepiece"? All terrible. It wasn't until the big men showed up that this team became a playoff contender.

  20. #60
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    Quote C-Low wrote: View Post
    Is this guy serious? lol...Have you been watching raptors basketball for the last few years?? Jose our best player? Well that makes a hell of a lot sense as to why we haven't made the players if he's been our "best player".

    Christ , thank goodness we finally were able to cash in on him. Realistically if we made this trade at the start of the season it wouldve of been the trade of the year.
    Stating Jose has been our best player the past few seasons is certainly open for debate and not cause for mockery.

    The problem was not whether Jose was our best player but rather that we did not have anyone better than an average starter-quality player on the team, hopefully having Rudy Gay on the roster will fix that.

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