View Poll Results: Would you swap Ross for Davis in the Gay trade if possible?

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Thread: Everything Rudy Gay

  1. #381
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    What the fuck is the rush again? Isn't Rudy's number somewhat on the decline? Can't we just wait until the end of his current one before we talk about an extension? Fuck, this is why I hate BC. Sorry for swearing but I've had fucking enough of this clown. You know what, BC is turning the Raps into this desperate franchise that will throw money at anyone just to prevent them from leaving. Ridiculous.

    #saynotoBC
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  2. #382
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    Don't forget Amir. His contract looks good now, but it could have been for even less. I remember reading an interview with Amir where he talked about how he went into the contract session with a figure in mind, and then Colangelo throws out a figure that's was something like 7 mil more than what he would have accpeted...
    Really? Wow

    I never heard that but honestly I'm not surprised.

    Bottom line is, if he wants to sign these guys we should BC expect to overpay at this point

  3. #383
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    Isn't it nice to have a guy like Rudy playing at the 3 spot for the Raptors instead of the long list of mediocrity that was before him.
    His next deal won't be for less than his present one so don't even think about $15,000,000. It's not happening.
    This is a team that wants to grow the brand in a huge population base. The GTA is third in size after New York and LA. Bigger than Chicago. The owners are the wealthiest in the nba. David Thompson is the 24th richest man on the planet with over 20 billion and the Rogers family has 3 times the wealth of Mark Cuban. If it takes a few million in a tax hit to acquire players that will help the franchise add value they can afford it and I believe they would love to see their teams on top.

  4. #384
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote RapRepRip wrote: View Post
    Lowry has issues with coaches, and from what I understand Memphis had issues with Gay. Wasn't it Gay that said there was nothing good about Memphis soon after he got here? So, my point is they have this history. The hope is that they get over that, and learn to listen well, and help the others along so they can be a great team. I really hope that is that is the way it will work out, however I am not convinced that this is the case. Only time will tell. Certainly we will not know before mid-next-season. If it works, the Raps are going to be a competitive team and should talk about extending their contracts. If not, we will have a new GM, is what I think.
    He was interviewed about that. He said he answered that way because he was angry, he loved Memphis and the city and organization, he felt like Memphis and the management "threw him away."

  5. #385
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    That's the one really bad knock on Colangelo... His ability to manage/negotiate a contract. He's made some other sketchy decisions, but his clear cut negative is the financial standpoint for players.

  6. #386
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    He was interviewed about that. He said he answered that way because he was angry, he loved Memphis and the city and organization, he felt like Memphis and the management "threw him away."
    Not very professional. Are Jose or Ed dissing the Raptors because they were traded? No. They are professionals that are deserving of respect, as opposed to someone with a chip on their shoulder. Hope he can change.

  7. #387
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote RapRepRip wrote: View Post
    Not very professional. Are Jose or Ed dissing the Raptors because they were traded? No. They are professionals that are deserving of respect, as opposed to someone with a chip on their shoulder. Hope he can change.
    What do you mean? It's the first time he's been traded, and while Jose and Ed aren't dissing Toronto (being their first times being traded too), Memphis didn't necessarily like Rudy as much as Toronto respected Ed/Jose. There's a difference, not to mention the fact Rudy's teammates/coaching staff in Memphis believed in him. Coach Lionel Hollins did not want Rudy to be traded. If anything, Memphis is just as much to blame with all the BS they said about the situation, which all contradicted everything they said when they dealt away Rudy...

    It was his initial reaction to be traded, it's natural. He's still a human being. We and they all react in different ways. Jose was upset, and obvious he was heart broken. Ed was seemed angry, he did not seem to welcome the idea of being traded. All these assumptions are from the video of their road game in Atlanta the day the trade was made official..
    He didn't react in a wrong way, nor did he say anything bad about Memphis. He was just upset, and felt the situation should have been handled better.

  8. #388
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    To add, Rudy was traded at that time. He did not sulk and whine about it WHEN he was Grizzly, he decided to speak about it after he got settled in. I don't believe there was anything unprofessional about him being upset, he admitted he loved Memphis.

  9. #389
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Well, Rudy is the best player they've had since Vince. This guy is a STAR. So if you can lock him up this summer, YOU DO IT. Can't let this guy walk away in 2 years. You build around him........and Valanciunas.

    Also, people needs to realize that Rudy is only 26. So he's just entering his prime. Offer him a 4-5 year deal. Raptors probably have to overpay but that's how it works.
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  10. #390
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    I don't know how true this is 'cause it seems a little premature. If it's true, the only sensible reason I see is if the extension starts on 2015, it would negate the option year of the present contract. The reason for this could be to pay him less than the 19 mil. he'd make if he picked the option, thereby saving the Raptors some money and giving them cap flexibility.

    Rudy is good but I don't think he's a max money player. However it may be necessary to pay him max money.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  11. #391
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    All I know is ... When Rudy takes a long shot, I think it's always going to miss.

    But I feel settled knowing it's his shot that's missing. He has other skills. You can always improve shooting.

    Smarter shots, better execution.

    There's also this one research paper that was presented at the Sloan Sports Conference which talked about the fit between your top 3 players. I thought it was pretty interesting. He clustered NBA players from 1977 into 12 different player groups each with a distinct characteristic. For example, group 2 has a high volume shooter, doesn't take a lot of threes and group 5 had a well-rounded, versatile, power forward, etc.

    He used a regression to find the best combination of a big three & see which combination produces the most wins.

    It's called "Big 2's and Big 3's Analysis."

    What I take away from it is it would be difficult for all Lowry, DeRozan and Gay to co-exist unless someone goes or someone changes their game (scorers by nature, high turnover).
    “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

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  12. #392
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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    Isn't it nice to have a guy like Rudy playing at the 3 spot for the Raptors instead of the long list of mediocrity that was before him.
    His next deal won't be for less than his present one so don't even think about $15,000,000. It's not happening.
    This is a team that wants to grow the brand in a huge population base. The GTA is third in size after New York and LA. Bigger than Chicago. The owners are the wealthiest in the nba. David Thompson is the 24th richest man on the planet with over 20 billion and the Rogers family has 3 times the wealth of Mark Cuban. If it takes a few million in a tax hit to acquire players that will help the franchise add value they can afford it and I believe they would love to see their teams on top.
    Even if it's true about the owners having shitballs of money and willing to spend, it still doesn't justify over paying. I mean if you sign him now, you have to sign him for max. If you want until he's a free agent, you are much more likely to pay him less. If you want until the offseason, the worst case scenario is that someone offers him the max, so you also offer the max (which is a more because you have his bird rights), if his stock is lower you still over pay, but if his value is 11-12 mill, maybe you get away with 13.5-15 mill? At this point is Rudy Gay better than Nic Bantum? Compare their career advanced stats

    Nic Batum Rudy Gay

    Nic's a better shooter, passer, and blocks has a better Ortg and WS/48
    Rudy's has a better PER, better rebounder, steals and tied for Drtg the biggest difference is usage 24% - 18%

    Batum also doesn't make more than 11.9 in any season of his contact.

    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    I don't know how true this is 'cause it seems a little premature. If it's true, the only sensible reason I see is if the extension starts on 2015, it would negate the option year of the present contract. The reason for this could be to pay him less than the 19 mil. he'd make if he picked the option, thereby saving the Raptors some money and giving them cap flexibility.

    Rudy is good but I don't think he's a max money player. However it may be necessary to pay him max money.
    Why!?!?!?


    EDIT: Here's a list of SF's that can be realistically compare with Rudy, either in terms or production or salary (I didn't include any rookie contracts) so you can compare for yourself


    Joe Johnson 24.9 2015-2016

    Melo 23.5 player option in 2014-2015

    Lebron 22.1 player option in 2015-2016 (has a player option in 2014-2015 as well)

    Durant 21.2 in 2015-2016

    Gay 19.3 2014-2015 player option

    Pierce 16.8 this year 15.3 next year

    Andre Iguodala 15.9 player optionnext year

    Loul Deng 14.3 next year

    Danny Granger 14 mil next year

    Batum 11.9 2015-2016

    There are 4 players above him in terms of salary, two of which are definitely better and should make more (Lebron, Durant) I'm not sure whether you can say absolutely, that Joe Johnson or Melo is better than Gay or vise-versa, so you can argue that his contract is more reasonable (or less crazy) than those two.

    There are 5 players below him, and I think you can argue that every one of them is better than he is, just like you can argue that he is better than any/all of them. Outside of Pierce, a future HOF'er, who will definitely make less on his next contract, he's going to make between 3.4mil and 7.4mill MORE in his highest paid season, than any of these guys. Iggy, Granger, Pierce, and Deng, will all have new contracts by 2014-2015. Are any of them going to get max money? I don't think so.

    IMO You do NOT have to offer Gay MAX money, because NOBODY ELSE IS GOING TO. Unfortunately, you have to have a little patience.

    If BC offers an extension of less than 14 mil a year, I'm okay with that. I am NOT okay with offering more than 15 mil. If you have to offer more than 15mil to get him to sign his extension, than wait it out.

    Fun Fact: The Phoenix Suns do not have any contracts on the books through 2015/2016 that pays a player more than 7.5 mill in any one season.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Fri Mar 8th, 2013 at 05:23 AM.
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  13. #393
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Well, Rudy is the best player they've had since Vince.
    I would place Bosh ahead of Rudy without hesitation on the "All-time Best Raptors" list.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  14. #394
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I would place Bosh ahead of Rudy without hesitation on the "All-time Best Raptors" list.
    As would I.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  15. #395
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    Very interesting read, mostly way over my head of course, but just reading the abstract and conclusions was useful. Undershooting is more of a problem than overshooting (hello Jose).

    As for the early in the shot clock/late in the shot clock question, I'd rather see a shot taken when the player has a good look. The paper suggests that the vast majority of NBA players are good at making optimal decisions on when to shoot.

    The commentators who go on about "That was early in the shot clock" only do so if the shot misses. If it was wide open, what make anyone think the player is going to get an even more wide open look as the clock ticks down? I wide open three is almost always a better shot than a contested one in the paint, as long as the Raps get no respect from the refs.

  16. #396
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    This guy is a STAR. So if you can lock him up this summer, YOU DO IT. Can't let this guy walk away in 2 years. You build around him........and Valanciunas.

    Also, people needs to realize that Rudy is only 26. So he's just entering his prime. Offer him a 4-5 year deal. Raptors probably have to overpay but that's how it works.
    As to the first bolded section, why can't you let him walk away? Because, we can't get another player of his talent level to sign here? I don't buy that argument, but some on this site do, but even if we accept that we can't get a replacement for him, does that mean we have to pay him a max contract? I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I assume that a max contract would be 100+x% of his current salary and probably puts us in the Joe Johnson salary range of 22 mill per season plus... Are you really okay with paying RUDY GAY 22+ million/season, basically paying him more than Lebron, or Durant? Really? I mean really, really?

    As to the second bold, I agree, the raps have to over pay. But what is Rudy's value? Honestly, based on his play with Memphis and Toronto, I'd say he's worth 12 mill per season. I think that's absolutely fair. So I'm fine with overpaying 3 mill a season, but any deal over 15mil/season is going to be difficult to stomach, let alone paying Gay 22+ mill a season? That's overpaying by just about double and I am not okay with that. If a guy wants double of what he's worth, you have to let him go. Or let him try is luck elsewhere and then offer him a little bit more than what any other team is offering, and hope that the extra soothes his ego enough to justify signing with you even though you had the guts to NOT offer him what he thinks he's worth.

    But I'm curious, what do you think is fair rate, and his market rate? For gay based on his production versus other people who are producing similar rates, I'd say a fair rate 12 mill/season, but his market rate is probably 14 mill. So I can stomach paying him 15, but if he wants more than that, I think you have to let him walk.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  17. #397
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I haven't read the full thread, so forgive me if this question was already asked....but doesn't this rumour give a slight indication that Colangelo will be here next season (that is, assuming the rumour is true).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  18. #398
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    The commentators who go on about "That was early in the shot clock" only do so if the shot misses. If it was wide open, what make anyone think the player is going to get an even more wide open look as the clock ticks down? I wide open three is almost always a better shot than a contested one in the paint, as long as the Raps get no respect from the refs.
    I agree with this point to a certain extent. But one has to consider the 4 other teammates when determining what a "good shot" is. For example, a wide open 3 early in the clock, when the rest of your team is still crossing half-court, is still a bad shot IMO. If it goes in, it's gravy. If it doesn't, you literally threw away a possession playing 1-on-5 without any rebounders in place to clean up your mess.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    You know what I'd like to see? More incentive based contracts. More players in the NBA are starting to get them. Like couldn't they do something like $11 mil a year and $4 mil bonus per year whenever Gay makes the all-star team?
    Gay making the All-Star team would be likely classified as a performance incentive not likely to be achieved and thus would be limited to 15% of his regular salary. Thus, no more than $1.65 million bonus in this case.

    if Gay made the All-Start team in 2013-14, then the performance incentive would be reclassified as likely to be achieved for 2014-15 and thus the $1.65M performance bonus would count towards the cap space for 2014-15 (regardless of whether Gay makes the All-Star team or not).

    You can check section 72 at http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm for more information.

  20. #400
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I agree with this point to a certain extent. But one has to consider the 4 other teammates when determining what a "good shot" is. For example, a wide open 3 early in the clock, when the rest of your team is still crossing half-court, is still a bad shot IMO. If it goes in, it's gravy. If it doesn't, you literally threw away a possession playing 1-on-5 without any rebounders in place to clean up your mess.
    But in those cases it won't be 1 on 5 and the players that are already back on defense generally aren't in the best position to rebound. Say it's 2-3 or even 4: the attacking players will be in a much better place to rebound, there is more space between players where the ball can land and, because of their position facing the basket, the attacking players have an easier time getting to it.

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