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  • Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I haven't read the full thread, so forgive me if this question was already asked....but doesn't this rumour give a slight indication that Colangelo will be here next season (that is, assuming the rumour is true).
    The fact that BC's option year has not been picked up yet means that people should not take the rumour too seriously.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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    • Nilanka wrote: View Post
      I tend to agree.

      Cap flexibility doesn't mean much if you're not Miami, New York or LA.
      Cap flexibility is key for trades too though. We have no flexibility and (even worse) very few movable assets thanks to large contracts to poor performers.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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      • Axel wrote: View Post
        Cap flexibility is key for trades too though. We have no flexibility and (even worse) very few movable assets thanks to large contracts to poor performers.
        Along this thinking, the decision to extend Gay really has no impact on the team's financial flexibility. Regardless of an extension, the team's only options for adding anything more than an MLE free agent, is via S&T using Bargnani and/or DeRozan.

        Even if the team declines the team option on Lucas and uses the amnesty on Kleiza, the team's no further ahead. Hell, even if Kleiza retires and the amnesty is used on Bargnani, the team still can't sign any free agents aside from using exceptions!

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        • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
          Along this thinking, the decision to extend Gay really has no impact on the team's financial flexibility. Regardless of an extension, the team's only options for adding anything more than an MLE free agent, is via S&T using Bargnani and/or DeRozan.

          Even if the team declines the team option on Lucas and uses the amnesty on Kleiza, the team's no further ahead. Hell, even if Kleiza retires and the amnesty is used on Bargnani, the team still can't sign any free agents aside from using exceptions!
          Very true. My comment was in a general sense. The Raps are hosed for flexibility for a while.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • looks like rudy has me against the world written on the inside of his arms.
            pretty much sums up the way he plays..

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            • d749 wrote: View Post
              looks like rudy has me against the world written on the inside of his arms.
              pretty much sums up the way he plays..
              lol

              If the forums had ROTDs, this would get my vote.

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              • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                Along this thinking, the decision to extend Gay really has no impact on the team's financial flexibility. Regardless of an extension, the team's only options for adding anything more than an MLE free agent, is via S&T using Bargnani and/or DeRozan.

                Even if the team declines the team option on Lucas and uses the amnesty on Kleiza, the team's no further ahead. Hell, even if Kleiza retires and the amnesty is used on Bargnani, the team still can't sign any free agents aside from using exceptions!
                While this is true, you have to keep in mind that just because we would have the ability to sign someone else in a sign and trade if we didn't trade for Gay, is that the opportunity doesn't come by all the time and for a player of his calibre in a position of need. The opportunity was there and the Raptors took it. Just because we would have had the space to sign Dwight Howard or Chris Paul, doesn't mean the opportunity to get either player would be there.

                All the talk last season was that once the tax kicks in uder the new CBA there would be teams looking to unload talent to avoid the luxury tax and that teams with cap space will be in a good position to scoop those players up. Well that is just what happened with Memphis whom were one of the top teams everyone said would be looking to unload talent to avoid the tax.

                It's getting supremely annoying that everyone is bitching about this teams lack of flexibility to sign an elite player other than Rudy Gay, like the opportunity to do so comes along everyday.

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                • Sorry about the rant.

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                  • The crucial thing for teams that are going to be around the tax or over will be maintaining a nuclear option... being able to blow things up if they go all screwy. For the Raptors, this blowup option is in 2015, when Gay, Bargnani, Johnson, and Fields all expire. Right now, DeRozan, Valanciunas, Ross, and Acy are the only players who go beyond this, and they add up to just over $20 million in 15/16 (team options on all three rookies). If the Raptors retain Gay and Lowry for around $30 million for the pair, that's just over $50 million committed at that point (plus likely at least two more rookies from 2014 and 2015 drafts). If the Raptors don't make any other long-term commitments, then I think they're in solid shape at that point. If you've got a contender, great, you keep that group together. If not (which is much more likely), you can let Bargnani, Johnson and Fields expire or trade them, you free up enough cap space that you can actually make a big move (by 2015, $50 million might be as much as $15 million under the cap), and add an impact player to a roster that is still very young and in its prime (all guys 28 or younger), and with every key guy on that roster signed for at least through to the end of 2016/17.

                    Now, if you can convince Lowry and Gay that they're part of something special and that they should take a bit less than market value to stay, then every dollar saved is going to increase the effectiveness of that blow-up, even if it doesn't help their short-term flexibility. If we could, say, get Lowry for $10m and Gay for $16m, then you might be close to $20m in cap space.

                    Is 2015 a good year to do a blow-up? Well, our biggest priority is likely going to be another big-man, and that offseason could potentially have M. Gasol, Hibbert, both Lopezes, Asik, Perkins, Chandler, Jordan, Love, Aldridge, Bosh, Stoudemire, Randolf, Scola, Boozer, and a lot of lesser players, depending on how player options break down. Plus a lot of star players at other positions, who will draw a lot of attention. In other words, a good year to be looking for a key piece. That offseason also marks a potiential shift in the balance of power in the east, since it could mark the end (or the beginning of the end) of the Knicks and Heat superstar combos. Both the Knicks and Heat are going to be well into the repeater rate if they try to keep their current cores together.

                    I'm still in favour of trading Bargnani when a decent offer comes up, however I'm pessimistic that this happens. A best-case trade keeps our nuclear option intact. A Boozer trade would be perfect, since it expires in 2015 too, but would allow us to play better in the interim.

                    So I don't think extending Gay necessarily kills the team's long-term flexibility, like some others have said. Short-term, yeah, we've got no flexibility regardless of whether we extend Gay now. I'm okay with the current core sticking together for a couple years, being a middle of the pack playoff team, and hopefully establishing a reputation that they can build on to attract another key piece in 2015.

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                    • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                      While this is true, you have to keep in mind that just because we would have the ability to sign someone else in a sign and trade if we didn't trade for Gay, is that the opportunity doesn't come by all the time and for a player of his calibre in a position of need. The opportunity was there and the Raptors took it. Just because we would have had the space to sign Dwight Howard or Chris Paul, doesn't mean the opportunity to get either player would be there.

                      All the talk last season was that once the tax kicks in uder the new CBA there would be teams looking to unload talent to avoid the luxury tax and that teams with cap space will be in a good position to scoop those players up. Well that is just what happened with Memphis whom were one of the top teams everyone said would be looking to unload talent to avoid the tax.

                      It's getting supremely annoying that everyone is bitching about this teams lack of flexibility to sign an elite player other than Rudy Gay, like the opportunity to do so comes along everyday.
                      I'm certainly not knocking the acquisition of Gay, I was one of the strongest supporters of targeting Gay since the summer, along with Matt. I still think it was a great move and hope he does re-sign long-term.

                      I was speaking more about from now moving forward, illustrating how Gay's extension wouldn't even have a negative impact on flexibility, because the team's flexibility is being hindered by several big contracts.

                      Comment


                      • After thinking for a day or two, I think any attempt to sign Gay is premature this summer.

                        The topic could surely be broached but it would seem, at least to me, the Raptors would be better off waiting to see how next year plays out.

                        Not to turn this in to Bargnani time (yet again) but the Raps need to see what they have without him and what he might bring.

                        Also the Raps need to see if Gay can elevate his game and fit in Toronto (from a basketball sense) leading to a competitive franchise. He certainly has immense talent but as we know talent doesn't fill the win column alone (although it is probably the most important thing with desire coming a close 2nd).

                        I don't think there is any risk of Gay turning down his $19M option. He will be just turning 29 when his player option is up. He will be able to secure at least one more meaningful/significant contract in his career at that time.

                        The most the Raptors can extend him for this year is 2 seasons. Basically, unless the Raps are going to pay him Joe Johnson money (which we can't rule out because Colangelo is offering the contract - Jesus, Mary, and Joseph *sigh*), adding 2 years now does little for either party (Gay or Toronto).

                        Wait until next summer and if things work out as we hope, add another 3 years at that time. Or wait until the player option is up (summer 2015) and add 4 years at that time. But adding 2 years this summer is not in anyone's best interests.

                        If Gay decides to opt out after next year it means it was a failure of a season and the Raptors are getting a lottery pick anyways (assumption being OKC gets the pick this season). If next year is a failure that is not going to look good on him and he won't get anywhere near max - let alone $19M for 2014-15.

                        My hope: Bargnani turns in to Boozer and another asset. Raps make playoffs and maybe even 2nd round. Gay signs reasonable extension (basically anything less than max). 2014-15 Boozer is a big expiring $16M contract and can return talent via trade at the deadline in a day of super luxury tax facing a crappy team with an unhappy, expensive star.

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                        • I also believe we agree on a lot, but I would like to point out a few things...

                          Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                          I think that the team should be able to(wait) but unfortunately can't.
                          Why can't they wait until mid season to extend him? Or next off-season? Or the year after that? I never meant to imply that they HAD to wait until he was a free agent to sign him, so I'll apologize if I gave that impression. I just don't think you need to extend him this off season, It's not like he's going anywhere.


                          Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                          Chris Bosh is the best example of that only difference being he was worth max money.
                          I don't think the Bosh comparison plays as the raps were always willing and wanting to extend him, but Bosh was clear that HE wanted to wait for FA. Or maybe I am misunderstanding your comparison?


                          Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                          All said, I think Raps. should explore trade options before signing him to an extension.
                          The funny thing is I'd like to keep him. Just not at 22 million, or even 19 million. Maybe I'm calculating his salary incorrectly, if someone knows how that works, maybe you can enlighten the rest of us.

                          I guess the main disagreement is that I don't think anyone else is going to offer him max money, if nobody else is, then there's no incentive for us to. Maybe i'm wrong though.

                          Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                          It's getting supremely annoying that everyone is bitching about this teams lack of flexibility to sign an elite player other than Rudy Gay, like the opportunity to do so comes along everyday.
                          I like the Gay trade, and I'm happy to extend him at some point, but I think NOW is the wrong time to do it. Basically he hasn't proved he deserves max money, but I don't think he'll sign for less. Why not let him play a season or so, and when your closer to FA there's less uncertainty about his value in the league. The fact that we got him for Ed Davis speaks to the interest level of other teams IMO.

                          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                          I'm certainly not knocking the acquisition of Gay, I was one of the strongest supporters of targeting Gay since the summer, along with Matt. I still think it was a great move and hope he does re-sign long-term.
                          Me too, but offering an extension right now just seems like eloping after a one night stand. Why not move in together first, to see if the chemistry lasts or that it will work long term.

                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          After thinking for a day or two, I think any attempt to sign Gay is premature this summer.

                          The topic could surely be broached but it would seem, at least to me, the Raptors would be better off waiting to see how next year plays out.

                          Not to turn this in to Bargnani time (yet again) but the Raps need to see what they have without him and what he might bring.

                          Also the Raps need to see if Gay can elevate his game and fit in Toronto (from a basketball sense) leading to a competitive franchise. He certainly has immense talent but as we know talent doesn't fill the win column alone (although it is probably the most important thing with desire coming a close 2nd).

                          I don't think there is any risk of Gay turning down his $19M option. He will be just turning 29 when his player option is up. He will be able to secure at least one more meaningful/significant contract in his career at that time.

                          The most the Raptors can extend him for this year is 2 seasons. Basically, unless the Raps are going to pay him Joe Johnson money (which we can't rule out because Colangelo is offering the contract - Jesus, Mary, and Joseph *sigh*), adding 2 years now does little for either party (Gay or Toronto).

                          Wait until next summer and if things work out as we hope, add another 3 years at that time. Or wait until the player option is up (summer 2015) and add 4 years at that time. But adding 2 years this summer is not in anyone's best interests.

                          If Gay decides to opt out after next year it means it was a failure of a season and the Raptors are getting a lottery pick anyways (assumption being OKC gets the pick this season). If next year is a failure that is not going to look good on him and he won't get anywhere near max - let alone $19M for 2014-15.

                          My hope: Bargnani turns in to Boozer and another asset. Raps make playoffs and maybe even 2nd round. Gay signs reasonable extension (basically anything less than max). 2014-15 Boozer is a big expiring $16M contract and can return talent via trade at the deadline in a day of super luxury tax facing a crappy team with an unhappy, expensive star.
                          I agree with the above.

                          The funny thing is, that this 4 page thread is all because of one article sighting an "inside source" for all we know it's BS. Not blaming the guy who started the thread (because it was me), but I never thought it would get this much play. The fact that many of us think an extension right now is not a good idea, but simultaneously think that Coangelo would entertain the idea speaks volumes about our confidence in our GM's ability to negotiate contracts, whether or not their is any truth to the rumour.

                          But yeah, offering rudy 22+ million per season is crazy, Bryan Coangelo crazy.

                          EDIT: I would also like to say it's not about financial flexibility, it's about only willing to overspend sooo much on a player. Amir Johnson's contract, no problem, Jose's contract, no problem, even barg's contract not a huge deal, your only overspending at most 1-2 mill per year, and in the case of Johnson he's worth it. But paying Rudy 22+mil, that's over paying by like 10 mil. I guess it's arbitary, but if you HAVE to pay a guy 5 million more than he's worth, what the f*^k are you doing wrong?

                          I don't think Rudy will extend for anything less than max RIGHT NOW but I do think he may sign for less in a year or two, doesn't necessarily have to go all the way to FA, just not a max contract this summer.
                          Last edited by ezz_bee; Fri Mar 8, 2013, 05:25 PM.
                          "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                          "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                          "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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                          • I agree that there's no reason to rush this, however it would be worth seeing if there's a window right now for a 'buy-low' scenario; Gay excited about being in Toronto, sick of being judged against a ridiculous contract, wanting to be seen as part of a winner rather than a guy you can't build a winner around. If we're talking about a max or near max extension (or even anything that's 100% of his option year), then there's absolutely zero reason to move on it now.

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                            • Its too early for an extension.

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                              • ezz_bee wrote: View Post
                                As to the first bolded section, why can't you let him walk away? Because, we can't get another player of his talent level to sign here? I don't buy that argument, but some on this site do, but even if we accept that we can't get a replacement for him, does that mean we have to pay him a max contract? I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I assume that a max contract would be 100+x% of his current salary and probably puts us in the Joe Johnson salary range of 22 mill per season plus... Are you really okay with paying RUDY GAY 22+ million/season, basically paying him more than Lebron, or Durant? Really? I mean really, really?

                                As to the second bold, I agree, the raps have to over pay. But what is Rudy's value? Honestly, based on his play with Memphis and Toronto, I'd say he's worth 12 mill per season. I think that's absolutely fair. So I'm fine with overpaying 3 mill a season, but any deal over 15mil/season is going to be difficult to stomach, let alone paying Gay 22+ mill a season? That's overpaying by just about double and I am not okay with that. If a guy wants double of what he's worth, you have to let him go. Or let him try is luck elsewhere and then offer him a little bit more than what any other team is offering, and hope that the extra soothes his ego enough to justify signing with you even though you had the guts to NOT offer him what he thinks he's worth.

                                But I'm curious, what do you think is fair rate, and his market rate? For gay based on his production versus other people who are producing similar rates, I'd say a fair rate 12 mill/season, but his market rate is probably 14 mill. So I can stomach paying him 15, but if he wants more than that, I think you have to let him walk.
                                Question, when was the last time the Raptors had a wing player like Gay? i would have to say Vince Carter, and the last time he played here was 9 years ago so that answers your question.

                                Second, not sure what Gay is worth. But all i know is, he's going to breakout next season. He's going to be the #1 option on offence. He'll average 20+ppg for sure. He's also going to get his rebounds and steals and assists. And the Raps for sure will be in the playoffs.

                                Re-signing Gay this summer i think is a wise idea because what he's worth right now whatever that is would probably double after next season.
                                Last edited by The Great One; Fri Mar 8, 2013, 08:04 PM.
                                Mamba Mentality

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