Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Everything Rudy Gay

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • More Gay bashing than an Eminem album in this thread.
    9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

    Comment


    • I wanted to delve further into the topic that Shrub brought up: does any player produce fewer points/assists while possessing the ball more?
      As was previously addressed (in detail), no one this season produces less than Gay, with the caveat that D. Rose does score less (but his additional assists make up the scoring difference); but that was just this season, what about ever? Are we witnessing the least productive high usage player of all-time?

      The parameters: Players with a Usage of at least 30% and a minimum per game average of 25 minutes. 30% Usage because that is the limit I set before and is considered a very high end usage. 25 MPG because I wanted to cull out any players not in significant roles but still allow for 6th man type minutes. All stats/figures are from basketballreference.com and include any and all seasons on record.

      There are 9 players in NBA history that fit these parameters but score less than 20 PPG.
      Derrick Rose 15.9 PPG - current season
      Shawn Kemp 17.8 PPG - 99/00 as 30 yr old with Cleveland
      Freeman Williams 18.6 PPG - 79/80 as 23 yr old with San Diego Clippers (yes, that long ago)
      Chris Gatling - 19 PPG - 96/97 as 29 yr old with 2 teams (traded)
      Brook Lopez - 19.2 PPG - 11/12 as 23 yr old - played only 5 games that season before injury
      Gilbert Arenas - 19.4 PPG - 07/08 as 26 yr old with Washington - played only 13 games
      Rudy Gay - 19.4 PPG through 14 games this year
      John Drew - 19.5 PPG - 79/80 as 25 yr old with Atlanta
      Richard Hamilton - 19.7 PPG - 02/03 Detroit as 24 yr old

      For the assists per game, we have the 15 lowest below (I choose 15 because it is 17 names with ties and to cut it off at a round number is difficult because of the number of ties)
      Chris Gatling - 0.6 APG - 96/97 as 29 yr old with 2 teams (traded)
      Patrick Ewing - 1.1 97/98 with Knicks as 35 yr old (only 26 games)
      John Drew 1.2 - 80/81 as 26 yr old with Atlanta
      Brook Lopez 1.2 - 11/12 as 23 yr old - played only 5 games that season before injury
      John Drew - 1.3 - 79/80 as 25 yr old with Atlanta
      John Drew - 1.5 - 78/79 as 24 yr old with Atlanta
      Shawn Kemp - 1.7 - 99/00 as 30 yr old with Cleveland
      Jermaine O'Neal - 1.9 - 04/05 as 26 yr old with Indiana
      Shaq - 1.9 - 05/06 as 33 yr old with Miami (59 games)
      John Drew - 2.0 77/78 as 23 yr old with Atlanta
      Yao Ming - 2.0 06/07 as 26 yr old with Houston
      Freeman Williams - 2.0 79/80 as 23 yr old with SD Clippers
      Patrick Ewing - 2.1 95/96 as 33 yr old NYK
      Jermaine O'Neal - 2.1 03/04 as 25 yr old with Indiana
      John Drew - 2.2 82/83 as 28 yr old with Utah
      Rudy Gay 2.2 APG through 14 games this year
      Zach Randolph - 2.2 06/07 as 25 yr old with Portland

      Of these two lists, we see the main culprits as:
      Chris Gatling - PF/C 96/97
      John Drew - SF/PF 79/80 as his "worst" year
      Freeman Williams - SG 79/80
      Brook Lopez - C 11/12 in only 5 games
      Rudy Gay - SF for your Toronto Raptors

      Ok, so these players are all playing in different eras and are at different stages of their careers, but here are some stats to hilight:
      Of the 5, only Rudy plays more than 29 MPG (currently getting 35.3).
      If we use Per36 scoring, all of the other players move up to 24.3 - 25.9. Only Rudy stays below 20 PPG.
      Rudy is 3rd in FGA per36 of the group but makes the fewest (7.2 per 36)
      Rudy's OffRtg is 92. The next lowest is 105. OffRtg is an estimate of the number of points a player produces per 100 possessions
      Rudy is only one with a negative Offensive Win Shares (estimate number of wins contributed by a player's offence)
      Rudy's WS/48 is .041 - about half of the next lowest (0.91 for Lopez)


      Based on these findings, I have to say that it is very likely that Rudy Gay is having the least productive high usage season in NBA history.

      So how did it work out for each of these teams?

      Gatling was traded from Dallas to New Jersey mid-season before he was injured and finished with just 47 games. He went from a 24 win team to a 26 win team.
      As awful as Drew's stats look, he was the leading scorer on a 50 win Hawks team coached by Hubie Brown. They finished the NBA as the best defensive team (Opp PPG) but lost in the Conference Semi-Finals
      Lopez's 5 games were the last for the Nets in New Jersey and they finished with 22 wins. It was Deron William's first year for the Nets.
      Freeman Williams was a 2nd year guard on a 35 win Clippers team led by World B. Free, Bill Walton and Joe "Jellybean" Bryant (Kobe's dad). Williams was the 2nd leading scorer behind World B. Free and was the 7th man on the team (in terms of MPG).

      So how will it work out for Rudy?


      EDIT: Somehow I overlooked Shawn Kemp for the final comparison, so let's break down those two individually.

      Kemp was playing 30MPG for Cleveland that year, scoring 17.8PPG on 14.1 shots per game. Kemp's per36 scoring, would get bumped up to 21.1, so he slightly edges Gay in that regard. Their blocks, steals and turnovers are nearly identical, with Kemp grabbing 1.5 more rebounds per game. Kemp's OWS was 0.2, (still ahead of Gay's negative score) but added 3.8 DWS (Gay is at 0.9). Kemp's TS% was .508 (Gay is below .500). As for the team's success, that season was the middle of a 3 year stretch where Kemp's team didn't make the playoffs (they made it every year from his 2nd to 8th year and then again for his final 2 years), and they won only 32 games.

      Kemp and Gay are likely battling for the worst season, but I give Kemp the slight edge. He played fewer minutes than Gay, so his scoring only drops below 20PPG due to the minutes. Also, Kemp had missed half of the previous season (he played 42 games), so he was in a bit of a rehab mode as a 30 yr old. Gay doesn't really have any excuses.
      Last edited by Axel; Sat Nov 30, 2013, 10:42 AM.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

      Comment


      • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
        The crazy thing is, even with Rudy and even with the the iso, wing heavy offense, the Raptors have the 16th best offensive rating in the league. If Rudy ever gets it going to anywhere near his career norms we could easily be top 10.

        I'm all for trading Rudy if we could get an upgrade, and on offense the eveidence is piling up that the upgrade doesn't necessarily mean a better player on offense, but I sort of like that we've improved to 9th best defensive rating in the league. Would hate to have a drop off in that column if Rudy's replacement can't bring it defensively.
        I agree with him. Rudy's length itself is such a huge asset to our D. He bothers some many players. I do feel that starting Fields wouldn't be a drop off. That much


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
        @Chr1st1anL

        Comment


        • Somehow I missed Shawn Kemp's season in my final comparison, so I've edited the post to include the Kemp/Gay comparison.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

          Comment


          • I'm trying to figure out who's had the worse affect on this Raps team... Gay or Primo Pasta.
            OG is our king

            Comment


            • Primo Pasta... but Gay isn't much better.

              IF it was Gay and Primo Pasta combined... oh god.

              Comment


              • Rudy Gay BY FAR. Its not even close.

                Never hated Bargnani. The REAL problem with Andrea was, the expectations after being drafted 1st overall was sky high. It didn't help when Colangelo mentioned Bargnani in the same sentence as Dirk Nowitzki back in draft night. And the TO media didn't help either started writing stuff about him being the 'next' Dirk Nowitzki.

                The same people that booed Bargs last year, i bet are the same people that bought into the Nowitzki hype.
                Mamba Mentality

                Comment


                • TRex wrote: View Post
                  Rudy Gay BY FAR. Its not even close.

                  Never hated Bargnani. The REAL problem with Andrea was, the expectations after being drafted 1st overall was sky high. It didn't help when Colangelo mentioned Bargnani in the same sentence as Dirk Nowitzki back in draft night. And the TO media didn't help either started writing stuff about him being the 'next' Dirk Nowitzki.

                  The same people that booed Bargs last year, i bet are the same people that bought into the Nowitzki hype.
                  Also with Andrea, he was okay (I think) with coming off the bench after we realized that it just wasn't working out with him. I'm not sure if we can do that with Rudy.
                  OG is our king

                  Comment


                  • Man, we got rid of one cancer to the team but now it's come back worse than before.
                    OG is our king

                    Comment


                    • Rudy Gay's trade value is at an all-time low, I think you have to put something up sooner rather then later. I know Cleveland is definitely interested in him.
                      Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

                      Comment


                      • ReubenJRD wrote: View Post
                        Rudy Gay's trade value is at an all-time low, I think you have to put something up sooner rather then later. I know Cleveland is definitely interested in him.
                        When did you talk to them? :P
                        For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

                        Comment


                        • I recently watched the all-access interview with Rudy and Demar. I may be looking too much into it but whatever, that's what we do here. Even in an all-access interview, I got the impression that Rudy has this internal competition with DeMar -- judging by some of the comments he was making.

                          For example, after Demar answers a question, Rudy made comments like "I got a better one" [or] "Well for me, etc." It's like he has to prove that he's better than Demar and as an outsider tuning in, that's a bad sign for your team -- because this is just an interview!! Like really, dude?

                          On the court, I notice the same thing. These two constantly take turns & try to "create" offense (for themselves) and it really pisses me off since it's dreadful basketball. It's very similar to the Knicks' offense this year where the ball sticks which makes it EASY for professional NBA players to defend.

                          Although I must say, Demar is a little better with moving the ball & recognizing the double teams. At least he tries to beat the double with the pass even though they get him especially when they double off the dribble. His handles are very average (it's getting better though) which causes difficulty in gathering his dribble for a quick pass.
                          “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

                          -- Charles Barkley

                          Comment


                          • Torch19 I agree with you. Rudy Gay is not suited to be on that team and he doesn't like it here, it's simple as that. Gotta trade him as quick as possible, sadly.

                            Comment


                            • Until he recognizes and acknowledges that Demar is better at ball handling and dribble pen, only then will he start playing his role and his numbers will go up.

                              I never thought about them 2 really competing AGAINST each other... that's really shit but you bring up a really valid point.
                              Being stubborn and competing internally would explain why he isn't sharing the ball, or listening/respecting the rest of the team. He's blinded.

                              This is a horrible comparison because the Raptors are no where near the skill and professionalism level as the big 3 but they didn't really Gel until Dwade recognized that Lebron was the leader of the team.

                              Comment


                              • consmap wrote: View Post
                                I'm trying to figure out who's had the worse affect on this Raps team... Gay or Primo Pasta.
                                Based on long-term affects, Bargnani definitely is worse.

                                If you look at the stats...Barg's worst season (last year with 35 games played) is comparable in some ways though.

                                OffRtg
                                Barg 94
                                Gay 92

                                DRtg
                                Barg 109
                                Gay 100

                                OWS
                                Barg -0.5
                                Gay -0.4

                                TurnOver% (estimated number of turnovers per 100 possessions)
                                Bargs 10.5%
                                Gay 13.4%

                                TS%
                                Barg .482
                                Gay .460

                                Usage%
                                Barg 23.8%
                                Gay 30.9%

                                It is fairly close with each having some stats in their favor. Barg's was a lower usage guy (and less minutes per game) with fewer turnovers and better shooting, but Gay has a better NET Rtg (OffRtg & DRtg) and slightly better OWS (although both in the negative).

                                I won't declare a winner as both cases are awful. It is sadly a fair comparison at this point.
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X