View Poll Results: Would you swap Ross for Davis in the Gay trade if possible?

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  • Yes.

    34 40.48%
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Thread: Everything Rudy Gay

  1. #781
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    So the answer to the question is no, Derrick Rose does but Gay is second last.

    Now you've properly answered the question.
    No, Rose has more assists than Gay. So Gay and Rose split on one category each, and Rose's scoring is much closer to Gay's than Gay's assists are to Rose's. Factor in that Rose is coming off a serious surgery, and the conclusion is that Gay is the least productive high usage player in the NBA. At least Rose had an excuse for his poor play (which are well below his career standards), Gay just sucks.

  2. #782
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    So the answer to the question is no, Derrick Rose does but Gay is second last.

    Now you've properly answered the question.
    This is just arguing for the point of arguing - the original post was totally legitimate.

    Congratulations, you've managed to force Axel into admitting that former League MVP D.Rose was playing worse, after a major rehab stint and potentially career-altering injury, than Rudy Gay. This has nothing to do with the original point, which was made quite well.

    Gay is a high usage, highly paid wing player who performs far below the level of wings at the same usage/salary level. Far below.

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  4. #783
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    This is just arguing for the point of arguing - the original post was totally legitimate.

    Congratulations, you've managed to force Axel into admitting that former League MVP D.Rose was playing worse, after a major rehab stint and potentially career-altering injury, than Rudy Gay. This has nothing to do with the original point, which was made quite well.

    Gay is a high usage, highly paid wing player who performs far below the level of wings at the same usage/salary level. Far below.
    Is there a "more than like" button for this?

  5. #784
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    This is just arguing for the point of arguing - the original post was totally legitimate.

    Congratulations, you've managed to force Axel into admitting that former League MVP D.Rose was playing worse, after a major rehab stint and potentially career-altering injury, than Rudy Gay. This has nothing to do with the original point, which was made quite well.

    Gay is a high usage, highly paid wing player who performs far below the level of wings at the same usage/salary level. Far below.
    Don't disagree on the bold.

    But the question that was asked was if Gay is the lowest production player at his usage level... to which the answer is no, it's Derrick Rose. No sense in leaving players out because they don't play the same position.

  6. #785
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    Don't disagree on the bold.

    But the question that was asked was if Gay is the lowest production player at his usage level... to which the answer is no, it's Derrick Rose. No sense in leaving players out because they don't play the same position.
    Well if you realllllly want to get technical, the answer is Gay, since Rose is now out for the season again. Gay is the answer among all active players.

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  8. #786
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    Don't disagree on the bold.

    But the question that was asked was if Gay is the lowest production player at his usage level... to which the answer is no, it's Derrick Rose. No sense in leaving players out because they don't play the same position.
    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Well if you realllllly want to get technical, the answer is Gay, since Rose is now out for the season again. Gay is the answer among all active players.
    Plus the original question included assists, which Rose is doubling Gay (4.3 to 2.2). Since Rose is coming off the injury, I feel it's fair to note that Rose's career APG is 6.8 while Gay is 2.1. Rose is playing down while Gay is playing at his career norm. Rose also has a higher career PPG

  9. #787
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    Lol 46% TS is not Gay's career norm...

    Not a fan of Gay at all and want him gone, but let's not exaggerate here.

  10. #788
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    Lol 46% TS is not Gay's career norm...

    Not a fan of Gay at all and want him gone, but let's not exaggerate here.
    Where are you even getting this? At what point did I say "career norm" and "TS%" in the same sentence, heck, even the same post?

  11. #789
    Raptors Republic Starter Shrub's Avatar
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    Very nice Axel, thanks for looking into that.

    2nd worst or worst... doesn't make much of a difference.
    (And everyone can see the Rose situation is an exception.)

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  13. #790
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Shrub wrote: View Post
    Very nice Axel, thanks for looking into that.

    2nd worst or worst... doesn't make much of a difference.
    (And everyone can see the Rose situation is an exception.)
    Nearly everyone it would appear

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    http://www.raptorscage.ca/toronto-ra...-gay-co-exist/

    The conclusion we’re coming to when showing the graphs, is when either DeMar or Rudy is having a good game, the other tends to struggle. If this is the trend that will follow throughout the season, it’s going to be a major problem for the offense. It becomes a, “whoever gets hot first, is the main guy that night” between Rudy and DeMar. No consistency whatsoever, and despite Rudy and DeMar saying that they don’t “take turns,” it will eventually become that. This type of mentality takes away from guys like Amir, JV, Kyle Lowry, and Terrence Ross. Now, if a guy like Landry Fields were to be the partner for DeMar or Rudy, I’m sure there wouldn’t be such a major gap between production. A guy like Landry Fields shoots within the offense, and cuts without the ball. This allows more ball movement, efficient shooting, consistent production, and more touches for guys on the team.
    Read more at http://www.raptorscage.ca/toronto-ra...Mf6r8VVvBma.99
    Check this article out, addresses how the two wing players aren't playing off one another.

  16. #792
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Anyone catch Rudy's weird joke about about playing with himself during that Raptors All Access thing with him and Demar? The fuck was that? Rudy, no one wants to know that you play with yourself.
    "You clearly don't know who you're talking to, so let me clue you in: I am not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger. A guy opens his door and gets shot, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"

    - Walter White

  17. #793
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote RotoWorld wrote:
    Rudy Gay put up 500 shots at practice following Tuesday's game against the Nets.

    "You just have to get back into the gym and get back to the basics," Gay said. "The only thing I could do after that game was to go out and shoot some jump shots. Get that out of my head and work on my game." Gay is last among small forwards in points per shot, and last in two-point shot percentage among the 75 players with 165 field goal attempts. At least Gay is working on it and knows his shooting is a problem.
    Ugh.
    In Masai we Trust.

  18. #794
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    Gay needs to go please.

    Damn I want that Antentokounmpo kid on the Bucks so badly.

  19. #795
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    The crazy thing is, even with Rudy and even with the the iso, wing heavy offense, the Raptors have the 16th best offensive rating in the league. If Rudy ever gets it going to anywhere near his career norms we could easily be top 10.

    I'm all for trading Rudy if we could get an upgrade, and on offense the eveidence is piling up that the upgrade doesn't necessarily mean a better player on offense, but I sort of like that we've improved to 9th best defensive rating in the league. Would hate to have a drop off in that column if Rudy's replacement can't bring it defensively.

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  21. #796
    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    More Gay bashing than an Eminem album in this thread.

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  23. #797
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    I wanted to delve further into the topic that Shrub brought up: does any player produce fewer points/assists while possessing the ball more?
    As was previously addressed (in detail), no one this season produces less than Gay, with the caveat that D. Rose does score less (but his additional assists make up the scoring difference); but that was just this season, what about ever? Are we witnessing the least productive high usage player of all-time?

    The parameters: Players with a Usage of at least 30% and a minimum per game average of 25 minutes. 30% Usage because that is the limit I set before and is considered a very high end usage. 25 MPG because I wanted to cull out any players not in significant roles but still allow for 6th man type minutes. All stats/figures are from basketballreference.com and include any and all seasons on record.

    There are 9 players in NBA history that fit these parameters but score less than 20 PPG.
    Derrick Rose 15.9 PPG - current season
    Shawn Kemp 17.8 PPG - 99/00 as 30 yr old with Cleveland
    Freeman Williams 18.6 PPG - 79/80 as 23 yr old with San Diego Clippers (yes, that long ago)
    Chris Gatling - 19 PPG - 96/97 as 29 yr old with 2 teams (traded)
    Brook Lopez - 19.2 PPG - 11/12 as 23 yr old - played only 5 games that season before injury
    Gilbert Arenas - 19.4 PPG - 07/08 as 26 yr old with Washington - played only 13 games
    Rudy Gay - 19.4 PPG through 14 games this year
    John Drew - 19.5 PPG - 79/80 as 25 yr old with Atlanta
    Richard Hamilton - 19.7 PPG - 02/03 Detroit as 24 yr old

    For the assists per game, we have the 15 lowest below (I choose 15 because it is 17 names with ties and to cut it off at a round number is difficult because of the number of ties)
    Chris Gatling - 0.6 APG - 96/97 as 29 yr old with 2 teams (traded)
    Patrick Ewing - 1.1 97/98 with Knicks as 35 yr old (only 26 games)
    John Drew 1.2 - 80/81 as 26 yr old with Atlanta
    Brook Lopez 1.2 - 11/12 as 23 yr old - played only 5 games that season before injury
    John Drew - 1.3 - 79/80 as 25 yr old with Atlanta
    John Drew - 1.5 - 78/79 as 24 yr old with Atlanta
    Shawn Kemp - 1.7 - 99/00 as 30 yr old with Cleveland
    Jermaine O'Neal - 1.9 - 04/05 as 26 yr old with Indiana
    Shaq - 1.9 - 05/06 as 33 yr old with Miami (59 games)
    John Drew - 2.0 77/78 as 23 yr old with Atlanta
    Yao Ming - 2.0 06/07 as 26 yr old with Houston
    Freeman Williams - 2.0 79/80 as 23 yr old with SD Clippers
    Patrick Ewing - 2.1 95/96 as 33 yr old NYK
    Jermaine O'Neal - 2.1 03/04 as 25 yr old with Indiana
    John Drew - 2.2 82/83 as 28 yr old with Utah
    Rudy Gay 2.2 APG through 14 games this year
    Zach Randolph - 2.2 06/07 as 25 yr old with Portland

    Of these two lists, we see the main culprits as:
    Chris Gatling - PF/C 96/97
    John Drew - SF/PF 79/80 as his "worst" year
    Freeman Williams - SG 79/80
    Brook Lopez - C 11/12 in only 5 games
    Rudy Gay - SF for your Toronto Raptors

    Ok, so these players are all playing in different eras and are at different stages of their careers, but here are some stats to hilight:
    Of the 5, only Rudy plays more than 29 MPG (currently getting 35.3).
    If we use Per36 scoring, all of the other players move up to 24.3 - 25.9. Only Rudy stays below 20 PPG.
    Rudy is 3rd in FGA per36 of the group but makes the fewest (7.2 per 36)
    Rudy's OffRtg is 92. The next lowest is 105. OffRtg is an estimate of the number of points a player produces per 100 possessions
    Rudy is only one with a negative Offensive Win Shares (estimate number of wins contributed by a player's offence)
    Rudy's WS/48 is .041 - about half of the next lowest (0.91 for Lopez)


    Based on these findings, I have to say that it is very likely that Rudy Gay is having the least productive high usage season in NBA history.

    So how did it work out for each of these teams?

    Gatling was traded from Dallas to New Jersey mid-season before he was injured and finished with just 47 games. He went from a 24 win team to a 26 win team.
    As awful as Drew's stats look, he was the leading scorer on a 50 win Hawks team coached by Hubie Brown. They finished the NBA as the best defensive team (Opp PPG) but lost in the Conference Semi-Finals
    Lopez's 5 games were the last for the Nets in New Jersey and they finished with 22 wins. It was Deron William's first year for the Nets.
    Freeman Williams was a 2nd year guard on a 35 win Clippers team led by World B. Free, Bill Walton and Joe "Jellybean" Bryant (Kobe's dad). Williams was the 2nd leading scorer behind World B. Free and was the 7th man on the team (in terms of MPG).

    So how will it work out for Rudy?


    EDIT: Somehow I overlooked Shawn Kemp for the final comparison, so let's break down those two individually.

    Kemp was playing 30MPG for Cleveland that year, scoring 17.8PPG on 14.1 shots per game. Kemp's per36 scoring, would get bumped up to 21.1, so he slightly edges Gay in that regard. Their blocks, steals and turnovers are nearly identical, with Kemp grabbing 1.5 more rebounds per game. Kemp's OWS was 0.2, (still ahead of Gay's negative score) but added 3.8 DWS (Gay is at 0.9). Kemp's TS% was .508 (Gay is below .500). As for the team's success, that season was the middle of a 3 year stretch where Kemp's team didn't make the playoffs (they made it every year from his 2nd to 8th year and then again for his final 2 years), and they won only 32 games.

    Kemp and Gay are likely battling for the worst season, but I give Kemp the slight edge. He played fewer minutes than Gay, so his scoring only drops below 20PPG due to the minutes. Also, Kemp had missed half of the previous season (he played 42 games), so he was in a bit of a rehab mode as a 30 yr old. Gay doesn't really have any excuses.
    Last edited by Axel; Sat Nov 30th, 2013 at 09:42 AM.

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  25. #798
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    The crazy thing is, even with Rudy and even with the the iso, wing heavy offense, the Raptors have the 16th best offensive rating in the league. If Rudy ever gets it going to anywhere near his career norms we could easily be top 10.

    I'm all for trading Rudy if we could get an upgrade, and on offense the eveidence is piling up that the upgrade doesn't necessarily mean a better player on offense, but I sort of like that we've improved to 9th best defensive rating in the league. Would hate to have a drop off in that column if Rudy's replacement can't bring it defensively.
    I agree with him. Rudy's length itself is such a huge asset to our D. He bothers some many players. I do feel that starting Fields wouldn't be a drop off. That much


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  26. #799
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Somehow I missed Shawn Kemp's season in my final comparison, so I've edited the post to include the Kemp/Gay comparison.

  27. #800
    Raptors Republic All-Star consmap's Avatar
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    I'm trying to figure out who's had the worse affect on this Raps team... Gay or Primo Pasta.

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