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Thread: Amir Johnson - legit starting PF?

  1. #101
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    This fan base is so fickle. If Bargnani has one or two more decent games, all the people who called for his head will now be his biggest supporters. The new whipping boy will be Kyle Lowry. This process just repeats itself over and over. Of course I'm not immune to this love-hate cycle, its just funny is all.

    As far as Amir being a starter, I have no problem with this. What I do have a problem with is Amir being the best big on the team. Amir is your classic hustle guy, and I love his mobility and versatility in a three big rotation, but if this team wants to do more than just make the playoffs, Amir cannot be the best big we've got.

    I'm not huge on the Gasol trade because I see him as a center at this point in his career (too slow to play PF). To me, most of LA's defensive deficiencies could be alleviated by moving everyone "up" one position (ie Gasol - C, World Peace - PF, Bryant - SF). It's been obvious that LA is too slow to guard effectively since they were run off the floor in the playoffs by Dallas two years ago. Why do you think LA's most effective rotations always had Odom at the 4 rather than Gasol? But anyways, I don't like the Gasol move because assuming we ship out Bargnani for him, this leaves only one player (Amir) to play the four.

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    Quote pcrombeen wrote: View Post
    This fan base is so fickle. If Bargnani has one or two more decent games, all the people who called for his head will now be his biggest supporters. The new whipping boy will be Kyle Lowry. This process just repeats itself over and over. Of course I'm not immune to this love-hate cycle, its just funny is all.

    As far as Amir being a starter, I have no problem with this. What I do have a problem with is Amir being the best big on the team. Amir is your classic hustle guy, and I love his mobility and versatility in a three big rotation, but if this team wants to do more than just make the playoffs, Amir cannot be the best big we've got.

    I'm not huge on the Gasol trade because I see him as a center at this point in his career (too slow to play PF). To me, most of LA's defensive deficiencies could be alleviated by moving everyone "up" one position (ie Gasol - C, World Peace - PF, Bryant - SF). It's been obvious that LA is too slow to guard effectively since they were run off the floor in the playoffs by Dallas two years ago. Why do you think LA's most effective rotations always had Odom at the 4 rather than Gasol? But anyways, I don't like the Gasol move because assuming we ship out Bargnani for him, this leaves only one player (Amir) to play the four.
    I clearly don't see why he shouldn't be. Defensively, just as good as some of the best defensive bigs in the game. A true defensive anchor, terrific rebounder, and a solid offensive contributor. Every team needs that big man who controls the grind-it-out parts of the game, and Amir does that.
    To answer your question about making the playoffs with a high talent big man, that is going to be JV down the road.

  3. #103
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Default 13 Games

    Yes, it's been an infamous 13+ games that Amir Johnson has been a starter this season.

    In 14 games Amir Johnson has averaged

    14.8 Points, 10.4 Rebounds, 2.1 Assist, 1.4 Steals, 1.7 Blocks .569 FG .702 FT 3.7 Personal Foul in 36.4 minutes

    His obviously more capable of keeping this these numbers than his counter(AB). I still believe that Amir is a starting PF. I think he deserve a chance to be the full starter. I would only be ok with bringing in a new starter at PF, is its a low post player(Boozer). No more stretch 4s. We have way to many perimeter players. We need interior scoring to complement.

  4. #104
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    amir johnson is not the right starting PF for us. with having so many pieces that score a lot of points attacking the paint (derozan,gay,lowry) we need a stretch 4 (not bargnani)

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Yes, it's been an infamous 13+ games that Amir Johnson has been a starter this season.

    In 14 games Amir Johnson has averaged

    14.8 Points, 10.4 Rebounds, 2.1 Assist, 1.4 Steals, 1.7 Blocks .569 FG .702 FT 3.7 Personal Foul in 36.4 minutes

    His obviously more capable of keeping this these numbers than his counter(AB). I still believe that Amir is a starting PF. I think he deserve a chance to be the full starter. I would only be ok with bringing in a new starter at PF, is its a low post player(Boozer). No more stretch 4s. We have way to many perimeter players. We need interior scoring to complement.

    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    amir johnson is not the right starting PF for us. with having so many pieces that score a lot of points attacking the paint (derozan,gay,lowry) we need a stretch 4 (not bargnani)
    I certainly feel as well, that Toronto should acquire a low post threat, but, we only have 1 pure outside shooting wing. Fields is still an if, and I don't know if his shooting will ever return to form. Same goes for Rudy Gay, who's outside shooting is inconsistent, and Derozan still isn't an outside threat. Amir Johnson should be and is a legitimate starting power forward, but having the ability to acquire Ilyasova means giving us outside shooting, youth, rebounding, and a typical PF frame - 6'10, 235 pounds - all for a reasonable deal of 7.9$ million a year for the next 4 years. (Correct if mistaken)

    Starting lineup consisting of Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Ilyasova, Valanciunas, with the Lucas, Ross, Fields, Johnson coming off the bench would be huge. Amir's energy and motor is better suited off the bench for this team, especially because Ilyasova also has a fair motor.

    Small ball variety is huge too. Ilyasova is a good enough rebounder, big enough body, and athletic enough to play the C position with possibly having Gay at the 4, Derozan/Fields at the 3, Ross/Fields at the 2, and Lowry at the 1.

    I wasn't so big on acquiring Ilyasova, until Torch made me turn heads.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    amir johnson is not the right starting PF for us. with having so many pieces that score a lot of points attacking the paint (derozan,gay,lowry) we need a stretch 4 (not bargnani)
    Rudy's more of a jumper shooter than a slasher. Their both inefficient scorers so having a big that out there taking jump shots isn't a good balance.

  7. #107
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    I certainly feel as well, that Toronto should acquire a low post threat, but, we only have 1 pure outside shooting wing. Fields is still an if, and I don't know if his shooting will ever return to form. Same goes for Rudy Gay, who's outside shooting is inconsistent, and Derozan still isn't an outside threat. Amir Johnson should be and is a legitimate starting power forward, but having the ability to acquire Ilyasova means giving us outside shooting, youth, rebounding, and a typical PF frame - 6'10, 235 pounds - all for a reasonable deal of 7.9$ million a year for the next 4 years. (Correct if mistaken)

    Starting lineup consisting of Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Ilyasova, Valanciunas, with the Lucas, Ross, Fields, Johnson coming off the bench would be huge. Amir's energy and motor is better suited off the bench for this team, especially because Ilyasova also has a fair motor.

    Small ball variety is huge too. Ilyasova is a good enough rebounder, big enough body, and athletic enough to play the C position with possibly having Gay at the 4, Derozan/Fields at the 3, Ross/Fields at the 2, and Lowry at the 1.

    I wasn't so big on acquiring Ilyasova, until Torch made me turn heads.
    Why would you want Lowry, DeRozan, Ross, Gay and Ilyosova. Everybody would be on the perimeter?

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Why would you want Lowry, DeRozan, Ross, Gay and Ilyosova. Everybody would be on the perimeter?
    That's the point of small ball. 5 out on the perimeter, and Gay/Derozan would be 2 possible guys playing in the low post anyways. Small ball is to space the floor, run the open court, use athleticism to your advantage, and quicker defensive rotations.

    Nothing bad about having everyone on the perimeter, and small ball is only used as a match-up lineup. Not your everyday lineup, and the only team capable of doing that, is Miami, where LeBron James is capable of playing all 5 positions.

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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    That's the point of small ball. 5 out on the perimeter, and Gay/Derozan would be 2 possible guys playing in the low post anyways. Small ball is to space the floor, run the open court, use athleticism to your advantage, and quicker defensive rotations.

    Nothing bad about having everyone on the perimeter, and small ball is only used as a match-up lineup. Not your everyday lineup, and the only team capable of doing that, is Miami, where LeBron James is capable of playing all 5 positions.
    The point of playing small ball is too get quicker and creating spacing to use that spacing. Having all five on the perimeter kind of contradicts the whole purpose. With all players out there it kind of makes it impossible for us to rebound. It would be one and done every trip down.

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    The point of playing small ball is too get quicker and creating spacing to use that spacing. Having all five on the perimeter kind of contradicts the whole purpose. With all players out there it kind of makes it impossible for us to rebound. It would be one and done every trip down.
    That's where the coaching comes in, and you utilize a system when shots go up, you have the safety(s) run back, and the rest crash the boards. Small ball isn't a rebounding typical lineup, it never has, it never will be. Miami is a terrible rebounding team, yet they're the the top tier of small ball, especially WHEN they have Bosh as their primary big on the floor, who is a near 10 rebound guy. Add in LeBron, and Wade's individual rebounding, you would think they are fine from a rebounding standpoint. Well... They brought in Chris Anderson.
    Like Miami, Toronto has a solid number of individual rebounders - Gay, Ilyasova (if traded for), Derozan, Lowry (for a point guard) - making it well enough possible to rebound in general.

    I'm not saying you run small ball 38-40 minutes a game, just that WHEN Coach Casey and the staff decides on running the small ball rotation to match-up/adjust, or to throw a different look at the opposition, Lowry-Ross/Fields-Derozan/Fields-Gay-Ilyasova is intriguing, and it certainly tells it on paper. Those 5 on the floor at the same time addresses the point of small ball.

    Small ball with the above 5 has complete open space. The point is like you said, creating space for drives and inside play (Derozan, Gay, Lowry), and getting quicker on the open court/defensive rotations. If this very lineup were on the floor, obviously the staff has plays designed to create easier opportunities for those players to get into the lane. Defense can't help because of the threats outside, help = wide open perimeter look. No help = dunk/layup attempt.

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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    That's where the coaching comes in, and you utilize a system when shots go up, you have the safety(s) run back, and the rest crash the boards. Small ball isn't a rebounding typical lineup, it never has, it never will be. Miami is a terrible rebounding team, yet they're the the top tier of small ball, especially WHEN they have Bosh as their primary big on the floor, who is a near 10 rebound guy. Add in LeBron, and Wade's individual rebounding, you would think they are fine from a rebounding standpoint. Well... They brought in Chris Anderson.
    Like Miami, Toronto has a solid number of individual rebounders - Gay, Ilyasova (if traded for), Derozan, Lowry (for a point guard) - making it well enough possible to rebound in general.

    I'm not saying you run small ball 38-40 minutes a game, just that WHEN Coach Casey and the staff decides on running the small ball rotation to match-up/adjust, or to throw a different look at the opposition, Lowry-Ross/Fields-Derozan/Fields-Gay-Ilyasova is intriguing, and it certainly tells it on paper. Those 5 on the floor at the same time addresses the point of small ball.

    Small ball with the above 5 has complete open space. The point is like you said, creating space for drives and inside play (Derozan, Gay, Lowry), and getting quicker on the open court/defensive rotations. If this very lineup were on the floor, obviously the staff has plays designed to create easier opportunities for those players to get into the lane. Defense can't help because of the threats outside, help = wide open perimeter look. No help = dunk/layup attempt.
    You make a good point but, we already have enough perimeter scoring. We have a lot of guards that can make a three. Getting another big that just wants to take threes doesn't make us any better. We need a true low post scorer to complement, for when the shots aren't falling.

  12. #112
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    You make a good point but, we already have enough perimeter scoring. We have a lot of guards that can make a three. Getting another big that just wants to take threes doesn't make us any better. We need a true low post scorer to complement, for when the shots aren't falling.
    Ilyasova isn't JUST floor stretcher, and I think that's a part of his game that's being overlooked. He's very similar to Bargnani, but plays a lot harder. For a 6'10 player, he can get himself to the rim off the bounce, and has a solid in-between game. Rebounding one of his strengths, and a good system defender.

    The reason I think trying to get a low post scorer now isn't totally needed, is we don't give JV to opportunity to develop into that role, as our go-to-guy on the inside, on the block now, and possibly for the future. A veteran post presence, maybe a Pau Gasol on a short term deal (expiring contract next season), or signing a vet minimum on a smaller role in the future, is something I would consider IF it wasn't Milsap or Ilyasova.

    Valanciunas has to be considered here, he will be our main big for years to come, and he already is a solid low post scorer for a guy his age and rawness. Developing him down there, will be special. Once he becomes "the guy" on the low block, there needs to be as much space as possible.

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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Ilyasova isn't JUST floor stretcher, and I think that's a part of his game that's being overlooked. He's very similar to Bargnani, but plays a lot harder. For a 6'10 player, he can get himself to the rim off the bounce, and has a solid in-between game. Rebounding one of his strengths, and a good system defender.

    The reason I think trying to get a low post scorer now isn't totally needed, is we don't give JV to opportunity to develop into that role, as our go-to-guy on the inside, on the block now, and possibly for the future. A veteran post presence, maybe a Pau Gasol on a short term deal (expiring contract next season), or signing a vet minimum on a smaller role in the future, is something I would consider IF it wasn't Milsap or Ilyasova.

    Valanciunas has to be considered here, he will be our main big for years to come, and he already is a solid low post scorer for a guy his age and rawness. Developing him down there, will be special. Once he becomes "the guy" on the low block, there needs to be as much space as possible.
    That's my point we don't need anymore players that create their offense off their shot or off the bounce. Have that. Are offense has not balance when are shots aren't failing were in trouble. We need low post scoring. JV is maybe two years away from being that.

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    That's my point we don't need anymore players that create their offense off their shot or off the bounce. Have that. Are offense has not balance when are shots aren't failing were in trouble. We need low post scoring. JV is maybe two years away from being that.
    We already have Demar and Gay who can score on the low block anyway though, low post scoring shouldn't have to be a huge NEED because of the number of slashers/cutters on this team. Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Fields.

    We saw what New York put out last night. Carmelo plays a majority of his game on the low block, where Demar and Gay should be spending half the time whether it's slashing, or the low block.

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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    We already have Demar and Gay who can score on the low block anyway though, low post scoring shouldn't have to be a huge NEED because of the number of slashers/cutters on this team. Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Fields.

    We saw what New York put out last night. Carmelo plays a majority of his game on the low block, where Demar and Gay should be spending half the time whether it's slashing, or the low block.
    I disagree. Gay and DeRozan don't spend enough time in the post to make a noticeable impact on the offense. By and large, they're both jump shooters.

    A good player in the blocks attracts double-teams (in a half-court set). A double-team results in a wide open look for a teammate. We haven't had this element to our offense since Bosh left.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I disagree. Gay and DeRozan don't spend enough time in the post to make a noticeable impact on the offense. By and large, they're both jump shooters.

    A good player in the blocks attracts double-teams (in a half-court set). A double-team results in a wide open look for a teammate. We haven't had this element to our offense since Bosh left.
    Bosh isn't a post player, more of a face-up player on the low block - if that's even possible. I'm still a big proponent of having the same lineup being a more perimeter oriented team, slashers, and offensive rebounders and pick-&-roll type bigs on our team. Giving Jonas the opportunity to be the low-post guy in the near-future, and far.

    I still feel with a spaced floor, it's better to get shots - especially in the NBA, with most teams going small ball - because they have to contemplate between trying to help, or staying on the shooter.

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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Bosh isn't a post player, more of a face-up player on the low block - if that's even possible. I'm still a big proponent of having the same lineup being a more perimeter oriented team, slashers, and offensive rebounders and pick-&-roll type bigs on our team. Giving Jonas the opportunity to be the low-post guy in the near-future, and far.

    I still feel with a spaced floor, it's better to get shots - especially in the NBA, with most teams going small ball - because they have to contemplate between trying to help, or staying on the shooter.
    That's why I think Millsap is ideal, as he gives the best of both worlds. He can post up and bang inside (similar to Boozer), plust he can play a little further out from the basket and hit jumpers (similar to Ilyasova).

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    That's why I think Millsap is ideal, as he gives the best of both worlds. He can post up and bang inside (similar to Boozer), plust he can play a little further out from the basket and hit jumpers (similar to Ilyasova).
    Which I don't disagree with, I was actually on a boat of Millsap or bust, until someone made me turn heads about Ilyasova.

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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Which I don't disagree with, I was actually on a boat of Millsap or bust, until someone made me turn heads about Ilyasova.
    Honestly, as one of the guys who endorses Ilyasova the most....BOTH these guys are totally ok. I endorse Ilyasova because I guess I see it as a more likely move to pull off....getting Millsap is really tricky, and could mean losing other assets and less flexibility for a few years. But again, I think both would fit in very nicely (and slightly differently) with the team we have from a basketball perspective, and much better than any other options out there.
    *I think you and other people just needed to be convinced that Ilyasova is a much tougher player than he seems to be. Very strong D and rebounding, solid size and good enough athleticism...though he's no Millsap

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Honestly, as one of the guys who endorses Ilyasova the most....BOTH these guys are totally ok. I endorse Ilyasova because I guess I see it as a more likely move to pull off....getting Millsap is really tricky, and could mean losing other assets and less flexibility for a few years. But again, I think both would fit in very nicely (and slightly differently) with the team we have from a basketball perspective, and much better than any other options out there.
    *I think you and other people just needed to be convinced that Ilyasova is a much tougher player than he seems to be. Very strong D and rebounding, solid size and good enough athleticism...though he's no Millsap
    My preference would definitely be Millsap > Ilyasova > Gasol > Boozer

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