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  • #16
    matt wrote: View Post
    The only reason Bargnani should ever put on a Raptors jersey again is to up his trade value. That's all it should be. I just don't see him changing his habits and playing off Gay's game.
    I'm not convinced. He had no issue playing second-fiddle to Bosh. He isn't a #1 option and he was exposed when forced into being the default #1 option. Plus, nobody is saying to keep him 100% forever.

    I think a lot of people are just realizing that with his skillset, he has the potential to be a great addition to a lineup featuring Gay, DeRozan, Lowry and Valanciunas/Amir. If he is told in no uncertain terms that he's now option #3 and that he has to make a better defensive/rebounding effort to EARN his playing time, he could deliver. If he doesn't, then no harm done - trade him - it's not like his value could decline further than it likely already has.

    At the very least, he would be a huge improvement over Gray (no offense) or Valanciunas (rookie) right now. A healthy Bargnani would have made that Miami game very different, simply because teams actually have to respect (and cover) Bargnani on the offensive end. Whether it was him scoring or just minimizing the double-teams thrown at Gay/DeRozan/Lowry, his presence would have drastically changed the team's offensive execution. With the improved defense, especially on the perimeter (more Lowry, addition of Gay, improving DeRozan), I even think his defense shortcomings wouldn't be as destructive.

    Just try it out... playoffs are a longshot and his value is already at rock bottom, so why not? He can still be traded at the deadline or in the offseason if it doesn't work out.

    Comment


    • #17
      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
      I'm not convinced. He had no issue playing second-fiddle to Bosh. He isn't a #1 option and he was exposed when forced into being the default #1 option. Plus, nobody is saying to keep him 100% forever.

      I think a lot of people are just realizing that with his skillset, he has the potential to be a great addition to a lineup featuring Gay, DeRozan, Lowry and Valanciunas/Amir. If he is told in no uncertain terms that he's now option #3 and that he has to make a better defensive/rebounding effort to EARN his playing time, he could deliver. If he doesn't, then no harm done - trade him - it's not like his value could decline further than it likely already has.

      At the very least, he would be a huge improvement over Gray (no offense) or Valanciunas (rookie) right now. A healthy Bargnani would have made that Miami game very different, simply because teams actually have to respect (and cover) Bargnani on the offensive end. Whether it was him scoring or just minimizing the double-teams thrown at Gay/DeRozan/Lowry, his presence would have drastically changed the team's offensive execution. With the improved defense, especially on the perimeter (more Lowry, addition of Gay, improving DeRozan), I even think his defense shortcomings wouldn't be as destructive.

      Just try it out... playoffs are a longshot and his value is already at rock bottom, so why not? He can still be traded at the deadline or in the offseason if it doesn't work out.
      Very well point. My sentiments exactly. Raps fans might have to accept the fact that Bargnani's shooting from the 4 spot, might be the necessary evil to help space the floor for our 3 slashers (Lowry, Demar, Gay). Plus don't forget the talk about being a top 10 (some even said 5) defence this year, with Bargnani starting at the PF spot. Hopefully the development of JV at the center position and more athleticism on the wings helps cover Barg's limitations on defence and he could actually work out very well as the team's 2nd/3rd option.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

      Comment


      • #18
        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
        I'm not convinced. He had no issue playing second-fiddle to Bosh. He isn't a #1 option and he was exposed when forced into being the default #1 option. Plus, nobody is saying to keep him 100% forever.

        I think a lot of people are just realizing that with his skillset, he has the potential to be a great addition to a lineup featuring Gay, DeRozan, Lowry and Valanciunas/Amir. If he is told in no uncertain terms that he's now option #3 and that he has to make a better defensive/rebounding effort to EARN his playing time, he could deliver. If he doesn't, then no harm done - trade him - it's not like his value could decline further than it likely already has.

        Just try it out... playoffs are a longshot and his value is already at rock bottom, so why not? He can still be traded at the deadline or in the offseason if it doesn't work out.
        Exactly. If someone calls at the deadline and offers you something of value that helps the team, then sure, jump on it. But there's no reason Casey can't sit him down and make it very clear that he's going to have to earn his minutes on one end of the floor. Even 15-20 minutes a night from him could really help given the current big rotation, especially when foul trouble comes into play.

        As an aside, it's hard not to think that all of BC's talk about trading Andrea might just be one big motivational ploy. I mean have you ever heard any GM, especially one that likes to deal as much as BC, lay his cards on the table in the media like that? I have a hunch that it was a not-so-subtle hint that he needs to fit within what the team is doing when he gets back or else. But that's just a theory.

        Comment


        • #19
          I don't know about Bargnani having to up his trade value. Whether his trade value is considered high or low, he is a known quantity and it's not going any higher because he comes back and plays. He's been around the league long enough where everyone knows he's a scorer and weak at most everything else. It's not like he's going to come back and every time there is a rebound to be had, Amir is going to take a step back and let Bargs grab it to up his rebound numbers.

          If there is an worthy offer for Bargs they should take it. Whether it's now or later is irrelevant. His trade stock is what it is, and unless GM's are as dumb as fans it's not going to change because he comes back and plays well, decently or poorly. Certainly what they are going to offer us isn't going to change because of how he plays once he gets back.

          Comment


          • #20
            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
            Not a bad write-up, but he obviously is an outsider looking at the Bargnani (and Kleiza) situation.

            I would suggest the roster breakdown is more like this:
            Inner Core - Valanciunas, Ross, Gay, Lowry
            Outer Core - DeRozan, Johnson, Fields

            Bargnani is absolutely trade bait, very likely not included in the team's long-term plans anymore. I'm surprised how anybody who saw/heard BC's interview in the wake of the Gay deal going through, could possibly believe otherwise. I just wish there were some rumors or even just some chatter floating around regarding Bargnani... soooo much more entertaining to discuss/debate tangible rumors!

            Kleiza is definitely not in the team's plans beyond this season. I expect that if he isn't traded, he'll be amnestied. No way he starts next season on the Raptors' roster.
            I dont know what to think of BC anymore. The way he called out Bargnani during the post season presscon last year, i thought he was gone. But he improved, got injured then came back as the old Bargnani and got injured again. Now BC is calling him out again, will he come back as the new Bargnani? Who knows.

            specualations i gathered from that BC interview:

            Bargnani is as good as gone.
            He's trying to make it known that Bargnani is really, really available.
            Offers are on the table, but waiting to see if Bargnani can come back on the court 100% healthy

            OR

            doing another scare tactic to nudge Bargnani and make him realize that if he doesnt smarten up AGAIN, he will be traded for real.

            IMO, i think BC is still going to keep him. Im still not convinced that BC has accepted within himself that Bargnani is as high as he can go, and is still hanging on to the illusion that he will be an all-star someday.

            IMO, see how he does with the 2nd unit, if it doesnt work out, trade him.

            Like i said,

            Comment


            • #21
              For me, the #1 priority is still to find a good deal for Bargnani. Much like Jose, out with the old, in with the new. But if there are no good deals out there, i would like to see Bargnani with the 2nd unit, coming off the bench. Mainly because the glaring problem the Raptors have this season is the 2nd unit scoring, 3rd quarter scoring. Bargnani can definitely provide that scoring punch.

              Comment


              • #22
                Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                I don't know about Bargnani having to up his trade value. Whether his trade value is considered high or low, he is a known quantity and it's not going any higher because he comes back and plays. He's been around the league long enough where everyone knows he's a scorer and weak at most everything else. It's not like he's going to come back and every time there is a rebound to be had, Amir is going to take a step back and let Bargs grab it to up his rebound numbers.

                If there is an worthy offer for Bargs they should take it. Whether it's now or later is irrelevant. His trade stock is what it is, and unless GM's are as dumb as fans it's not going to change because he comes back and plays well, decently or poorly. Certainly what they are going to offer us isn't going to change because of how he plays once he gets back.
                I agree you take any worthy offer, but there's a lot of talk about amnestying him just to get him off the roster, or taking back a contract just to dump him. That's not good business in my opinion.

                I do disagree about his value having flatlined though. I do think it's flatlined relative to the role he's been playing the last few years, that his value as a reliable first even second option is pretty set. But we haven't seen 'cog in the machine' Bargs yet, and I think that's where his value can go up. If he can prove that he can play team-first ball and focus on playing within the flow of the offense instead of dominating the ball (and that's a HUGE if), then his value should rise because it will show that he can play in a lot more situations around the league and fit onto a lot more rosters. It just opens up more options; even if the value of what you might get back in return won't necessarily climb that much higher, you're looking at being able to pick and choose what to take back instead of having to accept whatever your only buyer is willing to give up. Maybe that's splitting hairs, but I think it makes a difference.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                  I don't know about Bargnani having to up his trade value. Whether his trade value is considered high or low, he is a known quantity and it's not going any higher because he comes back and plays. He's been around the league long enough where everyone knows he's a scorer and weak at most everything else. It's not like he's going to come back and every time there is a rebound to be had, Amir is going to take a step back and let Bargs grab it to up his rebound numbers.

                  If there is an worthy offer for Bargs they should take it. Whether it's now or later is irrelevant. His trade stock is what it is, and unless GM's are as dumb as fans it's not going to change because he comes back and plays well, decently or poorly. Certainly what they are going to offer us isn't going to change because of how he plays once he gets back.
                  Playing him now probably wont be for upping his trade value, but rather finding out if he can fit into this new look raptor team.

                  Like you said, GMs all over the league already know what he brings to the table, i dont see any reason for Colangelo to showcase him anymore, as long as he's on the court, everybody pretty much knows what they can get out of him.

                  Definitely agree that if the right deal comes along then by all means, but im actually curious to see how Bargnani will react to being in unfamiliar territory.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
                    but im actually curious to see how Bargnani will react to being in unfamiliar territory.
                    You're setting yourself for disappointment....

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Nilanka wrote: View Post
                      You're setting yourself for disappointment....
                      i promise, this is the Nth time, hahahahahaha

                      if you think about it, which is the only situation that Bargnani has never been in?? Coming off the bench! this is his last straw!!!

                      Looking back....

                      Maybe if he becomes "the man" he'll be a star.....didnt work
                      Maybe if you surround him with rebounders.....didnt work
                      Maybe if you got him a defensive coach and a defensive big as a mentor......didnt work
                      Maybe if you put him on the 4 spot because he's really a natural 4.....didnt work
                      Maybe if you call him out in the media.......worked! After 13 games......didnt work

                      what else can you do?

                      Make him come off the bench.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
                        i promise, this is the Nth time, hahahahahaha

                        if you think about it, which is the only situation that Bargnani has never been in?? Coming off the bench! this is his last straw!!!

                        Looking back....

                        Maybe if he becomes "the man" he'll be a star.....didnt work
                        Maybe if you surround him with rebounders.....didnt work
                        Maybe if you got him a defensive coach and a defensive big as a mentor......didnt work
                        Maybe if you put him on the 4 spot because he's really a natural 4.....didnt work
                        Maybe if you call him out in the media.......worked! After 13 games......didnt work

                        what else can you do?

                        Make him come off the bench.
                        None of those scenarios worked because of Bargnani's inability to rotate and rebound. I can confidently say that coming off the bench will do nothing to help these holes in Bargnani's game.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Nilanka wrote: View Post
                          None of those scenarios worked because of Bargnani's inability to rotate and rebound. I can confidently say that coming off the bench will do nothing to help these holes in Bargnani's game.
                          Even if his game doesn't improve in those areas, facing the opposition 2nd units will both increase his offensive advantage and decrease his defensive disadvantage. I get the feeling that he's not the type of guy to let a demotion to the 2nd unit affect him. He's had plenty of time riding the pine to see the improvements in the team's play, plus he's been at practice and has surely had lots of conversations with BC/DC, so I would think he'll come out hungry to prove himself.

                          Again, if it fails and he's still 'all but 13 games Bargnani', he can be traded at the deadline or in the offseason. A few games trial with the revamped roster, in 2nd unit and/or with starters, won't change perceptions about him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Nilanka wrote: View Post
                            None of those scenarios worked because of Bargnani's inability to rotate and rebound. I can confidently say that coming off the bench will do nothing to help these holes in Bargnani's game.
                            What if you make him into a Jamal Crawford type player? Just give him the go signal to shoot to his heart's content

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
                              What if you make him into a Jamal Crawford type player? Just give him the go signal to shoot to his heart's content
                              IMO, he'll still be exploited defensively. It's much easier to hide a poor defensive wing, than a poor defensive front court player.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                                Even if his game doesn't improve in those areas, facing the opposition 2nd units will both increase his offensive advantage and decrease his defensive disadvantage. I get the feeling that he's not the type of guy to let a demotion to the 2nd unit affect him. He's had plenty of time riding the pine to see the improvements in the team's play, plus he's been at practice and has surely had lots of conversations with BC/DC, so I would think he'll come out hungry to prove himself.

                                Again, if it fails and he's still 'all but 13 games Bargnani', he can be traded at the deadline or in the offseason. A few games trial with the revamped roster, in 2nd unit and/or with starters, won't change perceptions about him.
                                I certainly agree there's no harm in trying it.

                                I'm just attempting to temper expectations of a rejuvenated/transformed Bargnani

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