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Thread: SI responds to an email question about the Raps

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    For me, the #1 priority is still to find a good deal for Bargnani. Much like Jose, out with the old, in with the new. But if there are no good deals out there, i would like to see Bargnani with the 2nd unit, coming off the bench. Mainly because the glaring problem the Raptors have this season is the 2nd unit scoring, 3rd quarter scoring. Bargnani can definitely provide that scoring punch.

  2. #22
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I don't know about Bargnani having to up his trade value. Whether his trade value is considered high or low, he is a known quantity and it's not going any higher because he comes back and plays. He's been around the league long enough where everyone knows he's a scorer and weak at most everything else. It's not like he's going to come back and every time there is a rebound to be had, Amir is going to take a step back and let Bargs grab it to up his rebound numbers.

    If there is an worthy offer for Bargs they should take it. Whether it's now or later is irrelevant. His trade stock is what it is, and unless GM's are as dumb as fans it's not going to change because he comes back and plays well, decently or poorly. Certainly what they are going to offer us isn't going to change because of how he plays once he gets back.
    I agree you take any worthy offer, but there's a lot of talk about amnestying him just to get him off the roster, or taking back a contract just to dump him. That's not good business in my opinion.

    I do disagree about his value having flatlined though. I do think it's flatlined relative to the role he's been playing the last few years, that his value as a reliable first even second option is pretty set. But we haven't seen 'cog in the machine' Bargs yet, and I think that's where his value can go up. If he can prove that he can play team-first ball and focus on playing within the flow of the offense instead of dominating the ball (and that's a HUGE if), then his value should rise because it will show that he can play in a lot more situations around the league and fit onto a lot more rosters. It just opens up more options; even if the value of what you might get back in return won't necessarily climb that much higher, you're looking at being able to pick and choose what to take back instead of having to accept whatever your only buyer is willing to give up. Maybe that's splitting hairs, but I think it makes a difference.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I don't know about Bargnani having to up his trade value. Whether his trade value is considered high or low, he is a known quantity and it's not going any higher because he comes back and plays. He's been around the league long enough where everyone knows he's a scorer and weak at most everything else. It's not like he's going to come back and every time there is a rebound to be had, Amir is going to take a step back and let Bargs grab it to up his rebound numbers.

    If there is an worthy offer for Bargs they should take it. Whether it's now or later is irrelevant. His trade stock is what it is, and unless GM's are as dumb as fans it's not going to change because he comes back and plays well, decently or poorly. Certainly what they are going to offer us isn't going to change because of how he plays once he gets back.
    Playing him now probably wont be for upping his trade value, but rather finding out if he can fit into this new look raptor team.

    Like you said, GMs all over the league already know what he brings to the table, i dont see any reason for Colangelo to showcase him anymore, as long as he's on the court, everybody pretty much knows what they can get out of him.

    Definitely agree that if the right deal comes along then by all means, but im actually curious to see how Bargnani will react to being in unfamiliar territory.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    but im actually curious to see how Bargnani will react to being in unfamiliar territory.
    You're setting yourself for disappointment....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    You're setting yourself for disappointment....
    i promise, this is the Nth time, hahahahahaha

    if you think about it, which is the only situation that Bargnani has never been in?? Coming off the bench! this is his last straw!!!

    Looking back....

    Maybe if he becomes "the man" he'll be a star.....didnt work
    Maybe if you surround him with rebounders.....didnt work
    Maybe if you got him a defensive coach and a defensive big as a mentor......didnt work
    Maybe if you put him on the 4 spot because he's really a natural 4.....didnt work
    Maybe if you call him out in the media.......worked! After 13 games......didnt work

    what else can you do?

    Make him come off the bench.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    i promise, this is the Nth time, hahahahahaha

    if you think about it, which is the only situation that Bargnani has never been in?? Coming off the bench! this is his last straw!!!

    Looking back....

    Maybe if he becomes "the man" he'll be a star.....didnt work
    Maybe if you surround him with rebounders.....didnt work
    Maybe if you got him a defensive coach and a defensive big as a mentor......didnt work
    Maybe if you put him on the 4 spot because he's really a natural 4.....didnt work
    Maybe if you call him out in the media.......worked! After 13 games......didnt work

    what else can you do?

    Make him come off the bench.
    None of those scenarios worked because of Bargnani's inability to rotate and rebound. I can confidently say that coming off the bench will do nothing to help these holes in Bargnani's game.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #27
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    None of those scenarios worked because of Bargnani's inability to rotate and rebound. I can confidently say that coming off the bench will do nothing to help these holes in Bargnani's game.
    Even if his game doesn't improve in those areas, facing the opposition 2nd units will both increase his offensive advantage and decrease his defensive disadvantage. I get the feeling that he's not the type of guy to let a demotion to the 2nd unit affect him. He's had plenty of time riding the pine to see the improvements in the team's play, plus he's been at practice and has surely had lots of conversations with BC/DC, so I would think he'll come out hungry to prove himself.

    Again, if it fails and he's still 'all but 13 games Bargnani', he can be traded at the deadline or in the offseason. A few games trial with the revamped roster, in 2nd unit and/or with starters, won't change perceptions about him.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    None of those scenarios worked because of Bargnani's inability to rotate and rebound. I can confidently say that coming off the bench will do nothing to help these holes in Bargnani's game.
    What if you make him into a Jamal Crawford type player? Just give him the go signal to shoot to his heart's content

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    What if you make him into a Jamal Crawford type player? Just give him the go signal to shoot to his heart's content
    IMO, he'll still be exploited defensively. It's much easier to hide a poor defensive wing, than a poor defensive front court player.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Even if his game doesn't improve in those areas, facing the opposition 2nd units will both increase his offensive advantage and decrease his defensive disadvantage. I get the feeling that he's not the type of guy to let a demotion to the 2nd unit affect him. He's had plenty of time riding the pine to see the improvements in the team's play, plus he's been at practice and has surely had lots of conversations with BC/DC, so I would think he'll come out hungry to prove himself.

    Again, if it fails and he's still 'all but 13 games Bargnani', he can be traded at the deadline or in the offseason. A few games trial with the revamped roster, in 2nd unit and/or with starters, won't change perceptions about him.
    I certainly agree there's no harm in trying it.

    I'm just attempting to temper expectations of a rejuvenated/transformed Bargnani
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  11. #31
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I certainly agree there's no harm in trying it.

    I'm just attempting to temper expectations of a rejuvenated/transformed Bargnani
    lol fair enough. From what I'm reading, even those in favor of trying it out still have Bargnani squarely on the trade block! I think expectations have long since been tempered accordingly.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    I'm reading this thread. Shaking my head. And wondering what kind of narcotic Bargnani's name gives off to make people so addicted to him.

    Just one last hit.... just one more drink.... just one more taste.....

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I'm reading this thread. Shaking my head. And wondering what kind of narcotic Bargnani's name gives off to make people so addicted to him.

    Just one last hit.... just one more drink.... just one more taste.....
    lol

    Funny b/c true.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Starter themasao's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I'm reading this thread. Shaking my head. And wondering what kind of narcotic Bargnani's name gives off to make people so addicted to him.

    Just one last hit.... just one more drink.... just one more taste.....
    Of dat delicious PRIMO PASTA!

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote themasao wrote: View Post
    Of dat delicious PRIMO PASTA!
    Don't diss the Primo! that shit is delicious

  16. #36
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    I know I'm in the minority here, but the more I think about it, the less dumping Bargs for spare parts makes sense. We all know that his value is probably limited right now, and aside from waiting to see if he improves in order to maximize his value (which is an upside-only proposition since it probably can't get much, if any, lower), I think there are some reasons to think that Bargs could actually contribute to the team.

    First off, he's not the team's primary scorer any longer. With DeRozan's increasing ability on the wing and Gay's arrival, Bargs is looking at a drastic reduction in shots compared to the last couple of years. And I really think that's the best thing for him. Being an alpha dog on offense is not his game, but like so many Raptors before him the organization placed that burden on his shoulders due to lack of choice. We all know the results: a lot of long 2s and a lot of ball stopping.

    But what Bargs is great at is spacing the floor and being the trigger guy who finishes swing or drive and kick sequences with jumpers that are often open because the opposing big has been sucked into the paint or doesn't want to stray from the rim to guard him. Looking at a Lowry-Gay-DeRozan trio on the wings, you can see why that particular skill set would be extremely useful, not only for opening driving lanes but also for receiving passes and doing what he does best. The key would be Casey getting into his head about shot selection and the need to swing the ball if he doesn't have an open jumper instead of forcing shots up. But on a team with so many scorers, hopefully he can unlearn that bad habit.

    Now of course this all comes with a huge caveat: his defense. We all know it's bad, we all get angry watching him loaf around. I don't know if lessening the scoring load would free up energy for the defensive end, but I do think that his rebounding can be made up for with the Lowry/DeMar/Gay combo crashing the boards and one of Val and Amir with him at all times. That's a strong rebounding lineup at 4/5 positions. You would hope Casey would distribute playing time to Andrea only if he commits to playing harder on D, and in general I think Bargs would benefit from a reduction in minutes with the emphasis on playing as hard as possible during those shorter stretches. Realistically though, it's probably a lost cause.

    But to me, a Bargnani with a decreased but more specialized offensive role and more playing time against opposing benches could really be an asset going forward. He's not going to be worth his 10 mil/yr contract or his draft position, but that doesn't mean he can't help the team. Gonna be interesting to see how it all plays out.
    The more I think about the team the way it is, the more I realize that Bargnani is about as relevant to our success (now and in the future) as john Lucas is.

    For us to continue to emphasize the importance of trading what has now become our 9th or 10th best player is kind of....stupid.

    If he accepts his role as a 6th or 7th man off the bench to provide some scoring at certain points in the game, then what do we care? He won't be on for the important parts of the game anyway.

    I, like a lot of us, have always said that he would be a great 6th man....why not give it a shot?

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Starter themasao's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    Don't diss the Primo! that shit is delicious
    You misunderstand me good sir -- it's so delicious, it might as well be a drug (as Il Mago knows alllll too well).

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    I agree you take any worthy offer, but there's a lot of talk about amnestying him just to get him off the roster, or taking back a contract just to dump him. That's not good business in my opinion.

    I do disagree about his value having flatlined though. I do think it's flatlined relative to the role he's been playing the last few years, that his value as a reliable first even second option is pretty set. But we haven't seen 'cog in the machine' Bargs yet, and I think that's where his value can go up. If he can prove that he can play team-first ball and focus on playing within the flow of the offense instead of dominating the ball (and that's a HUGE if), then his value should rise because it will show that he can play in a lot more situations around the league and fit onto a lot more rosters. It just opens up more options; even if the value of what you might get back in return won't necessarily climb that much higher, you're looking at being able to pick and choose what to take back instead of having to accept whatever your only buyer is willing to give up. Maybe that's splitting hairs, but I think it makes a difference.
    After 7 years though? You think Bargs can change his game at this point in his career? I have doubts that he could, but more importantly are GM's gonna buy into such a small sample size and equally important how effective is Bargs as a role player? Does another team want to pick up his contract for a guy who is just going to be a role player? One that can't even do the role player things like hustle, box out, defend etc.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    BArgnani has gotta go. There is no happy ending for him here in Toronto and it's his own damned fault. Coming off the bench to face the oppositions bench (if only it always worked so easily) doesn't matter. He'll still jack up shots early and often, he'll still be the worst help defender I've ever seen, his man defence will come and go, his effort on the glass will still be nonexistent. The worst part is if he puts together another magical stretch of good games and everyone loses their fucking minds again and demand he takes on a larger, starting role.

    Just trade him. We don't need him, he doesn't need us. We REALLY need a backup PG and a cheap back up pf/c. Ideally steady vets. Nothing spectacular, just guys who know how to play a role. "Scraps" like that will improve this team so much more than an inefficient, uncaring "stretch" 4 who doesn't rebound or defend.
    LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    I know I'm in the minority here, but the more I think about it, the less dumping Bargs for spare parts makes sense. We all know that his value is probably limited right now, and aside from waiting to see if he improves in order to maximize his value (which is an upside-only proposition since it probably can't get much, if any, lower), I think there are some reasons to think that Bargs could actually contribute to the team.

    First off, he's not the team's primary scorer any longer. With DeRozan's increasing ability on the wing and Gay's arrival, Bargs is looking at a drastic reduction in shots compared to the last couple of years. And I really think that's the best thing for him. Being an alpha dog on offense is not his game, but like so many Raptors before him the organization placed that burden on his shoulders due to lack of choice. We all know the results: a lot of long 2s and a lot of ball stopping.

    But what Bargs is great at is spacing the floor and being the trigger guy who finishes swing or drive and kick sequences with jumpers that are often open because the opposing big has been sucked into the paint or doesn't want to stray from the rim to guard him. Looking at a Lowry-Gay-DeRozan trio on the wings, you can see why that particular skill set would be extremely useful, not only for opening driving lanes but also for receiving passes and doing what he does best. The key would be Casey getting into his head about shot selection and the need to swing the ball if he doesn't have an open jumper instead of forcing shots up. But on a team with so many scorers, hopefully he can unlearn that bad habit.

    Now of course this all comes with a huge caveat: his defense. We all know it's bad, we all get angry watching him loaf around. I don't know if lessening the scoring load would free up energy for the defensive end, but I do think that his rebounding can be made up for with the Lowry/DeMar/Gay combo crashing the boards and one of Val and Amir with him at all times. That's a strong rebounding lineup at 4/5 positions. You would hope Casey would distribute playing time to Andrea only if he commits to playing harder on D, and in general I think Bargs would benefit from a reduction in minutes with the emphasis on playing as hard as possible during those shorter stretches. Realistically though, it's probably a lost cause.

    But to me, a Bargnani with a decreased but more specialized offensive role and more playing time against opposing benches could really be an asset going forward. He's not going to be worth his 10 mil/yr contract or his draft position, but that doesn't mean he can't help the team. Gonna be interesting to see how it all plays out.
    +1

    but i still want to #freebargs
    For The Win

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