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Thread: Blessing in Disguise?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Dalembert has a $6.7M expiring contract. So it's a valuable asset.

    I still think the Raptors need a starting PF, backup C, and backup PG.

    I think a trade like this could benefit all teams:
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bjr9g8h

    Utah needs perimeter scoring and Ellis can provide that in bunches. He can also play point which is important especially since Williams went down. DeMar/Jennings can play together. The only issue is that Toronto will have 3 expiring contracts.. and it may be difficult to resign all three next season. But it's the kind of deal that I would be looking for.
    I don't think we need a backup C and PF, probably just one or the other.

    Next year, I envision a front court rotation of [new guy, Jonas and Amir]. I don't like the idea of going 4-deep in the front court.

    My ideal rotation involves the 5 starters, a backup PG, a backup wing, and a backup big (and maybe a utility player for situational purposes). I prefer short 8-9 man rotations.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I don't think we need a backup C and PF, probably just one or the other.

    Next year, I envision a front court rotation of [new guy, Jonas and Amir]. I don't like the idea of going 4-deep in the front court.

    My ideal rotation involves the 5 starters, a backup PG, a backup wing, and a backup big (and maybe a utility player for situational purposes). I prefer short 8-9 man rotations.
    Ideally I would like an 8-9 man rotation too.. I just don't think JV is quite ready to be a rotational piece next year. In his 3rd year definitely, but he still has a lot of strength to gain and I don't quite see him developing fast enough to not have a 4th big in the rotation.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    No to Dalembert...please, God, no.....He's more athletic than Gray, he's also a complete dumbass who hasn't been able to stick with any team because he refuses to play hard consistently, and by refuse I mean it's clearly partly intentional because he gets to whining about his lack of touches everywhere....I'd take Gray over Dalembert any day of the week. Dalembert has the talent of a starter and plays down to being a 3rd stringer....Gray has the talent of a 3rd stringer and plays up to being a starter if need be....
    You raise good points about Dalemberts attitude. Still, it would have been nice to see Leo squirm during interviews

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Dalembert has a $6.7M expiring contract. So it's a valuable asset.

    I still think the Raptors need a starting PF, backup C, and backup PG.

    I think a trade like this could benefit all teams:
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bjr9g8h

    Utah needs perimeter scoring and Ellis can provide that in bunches. He can also play point which is important especially since Williams went down. DeMar/Jennings can play together. The only issue is that Toronto will have 3 expiring contracts.. and it may be difficult to resign all three next season. But it's the kind of deal that I would be looking for.
    I really like that trade proposal, but I think for the Bucks to bite on it we would have figure out a way to do it without Bargnani. Every which way I look at it I just don't see anyone wanting to take Bargs with that contract of his and the only option might be to amnesty him. With regards to resigning ... I would only be concerned with Milsap. Back up PG's are a dime a dozen and Dalembert is as solid as it gets as a back up big man, but as White Men Can't Jump pointed out, he may not be the best locker room guy.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Dalembert has a $6.7M expiring contract. So it's a valuable asset.

    I still think the Raptors need a starting PF, backup C, and backup PG.

    I think a trade like this could benefit all teams:
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bjr9g8h

    Utah needs perimeter scoring and Ellis can provide that in bunches. He can also play point which is important especially since Williams went down. DeMar/Jennings can play together. The only issue is that Toronto will have 3 expiring contracts.. and it may be difficult to resign all three next season. But it's the kind of deal that I would be looking for.
    Horrible trade. Dalembert and Tinsley are crap....bigger crap than Bargs by so much. You're basically trading Demar and Bargs for Millsap...Add to that Millsap could easily walk, and you're basically giving away Bargs and Demar for a slim chance to re-sign Millsap. This trade basically means that in addition to a PF hole, and backup big, you will now also have a hole at wing (because you need 4 wings, so Gay, Demar, Ross and Fields is solid).

  6. #26
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I don't think we need a backup C and PF, probably just one or the other.

    Next year, I envision a front court rotation of [new guy, Jonas and Amir]. I don't like the idea of going 4-deep in the front court.

    My ideal rotation involves the 5 starters, a backup PG, a backup wing, and a backup big (and maybe a utility player for situational purposes). I prefer short 8-9 man rotations.
    I agree. That's also one reason why I think that DeRozan could still be available - financial situation being the other (ie: close to the apron). If Bargnani & DeRozan (and possibly Anderson and/or Kleiza) can be turned into a starting PF and backup PG, our lineup would be set:

    STARTERS
    C: Valanciunas
    PF: new guy
    SF: Gay
    SG: Fields
    PG: Lowry

    PRIMARY ROTATION
    Big: Johnson
    Wing: Ross
    PG: new guy

    BENCH
    - Gray (backup C to play in certain matchups, or when Valanciunas gets in foul trouble)
    - Acy (5th big)
    - Anderson (could be 4th wing, if re-signed)
    - Lucas (3rd PG)

    * I do think a 4th wing would be needed, but I'm sure one could be found through free agency, for the MLE or less
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Feb 6th, 2013 at 09:56 AM.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Horrible trade. Dalembert and Tinsley are crap....bigger crap than Bargs by so much. You're basically trading Demar and Bargs for Millsap...Add to that Millsap could easily walk, and you're basically giving away Bargs and Demar for a slim chance to re-sign Millsap. This trade basically means that in addition to a PF hole, and backup big, you will now also have a hole at wing (because you need 4 wings, so Gay, Demar, Ross and Fields is solid).
    But if Millsap does sign, it could be the move that take us to 50 wins next year.

    I'd be fine with the gamble on the assumption that Colangelo receives some indication (not sure how this is done without "tampering"), that Millsap is interested in staying in Toronto.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Horrible trade. Dalembert and Tinsley are crap....bigger crap than Bargs by so much. You're basically trading Demar and Bargs for Millsap...Add to that Millsap could easily walk, and you're basically giving away Bargs and Demar for a slim chance to re-sign Millsap. This trade basically means that in addition to a PF hole, and backup big, you will now also have a hole at wing (because you need 4 wings, so Gay, Demar, Ross and Fields is solid).
    It's essentially DeMar for Millsap.. but yeah he could walk. Although the Raps could offer the most money and years since he'd be their player. As I said in a previous post I'd be willing to amnesty Bargnani or dump his salary for no assets. This would be perfect in that we get 2 expiring contracts (Dalembert and Tinsley) for Bargnani.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Ideally I would like an 8-9 man rotation too.. I just don't think JV is quite ready to be a rotational piece next year. In his 3rd year definitely, but he still has a lot of strength to gain and I don't quite see him developing fast enough to not have a 4th big in the rotation.
    playing him 8 mins a game wont help either.

    I hope Casey is not pulling a Smitch on Big Val.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is obviously the one long term piece that doesn't seem to fit. The assumption is that Bargnani is traded in any Millsap deal (perhaps not to Utah directly but via a 3rd team).

    Toronto would get Millsap's Bird rights.. they can sign him to a deal even if they go above the cap to do it. If they are able to move Bargnani to get Millsap then that would be adding only $2-$3M to the roster (ie, the difference between Bargnani's salary and Millsap's extension).

    Assuming Kleiza is amnestied.. they'd be in the tax at about $71M (assuming Millsap's first year is at $12M) next year. That's still $3M below the apron.

    If Millsap leaves in free agency then they are able to shed $10M (Bargnani's salary) from their roster without having to use the amnesty. They could then use the amnesty on Kleiza and have some wiggle room (ie, be able to get far enough away from tax so they can offer the full MLE and not be penalized by being a tax team). If the salary cap goes up as projected then they may even get under the cap and have some flexibility back.

    It's a gamble, but I do think that if you show Millsap the money he will stay.. and if Bargnani's salary is dumped without needing to use the amnesty I think that's a bonus.

    For those that are hoping for some kind of asset for Bargnani then this wouldn't work unless there was an agreement already in place from Millsap that he would resign. I'm personally okay if we don't get anything back for him. I just want the Bargnani era to come to an end before next season starts whether or not he returns an asset.
    I agree with the last paragraph. I'm just as happy with a straight amnesty as anything.

    However for the rest. There are numerous assumptions made here (a team wants Bargnani, or a team wants to help Toronto out in a deal, plus the questions of what else it would take for Utah to give Toronto Milsap or what Toronto would additionally give up). But even assuming they occur, or something similar, its still doesn't address trying to retain Lowry after signing Milsap.

    Even if we want to assume Bargnani can be moved for Milsap, and MLSE would pay deep into the tax, and would pay Kleiza's amnestied salary on top of that, we are still talking about potentially having one of the highest payrolls in the league after resigning everyone. These aren't impossibilities, but I think trading for Milsap and having a realistic shot at retaining him while maintaining the roster is much more of a pipe dream then anything.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    playing him 8 mins a game wont help either.

    I hope Casey is not pulling a Smitch on Big Val.
    If you have 96 minutes between two guys.. you could do something like 30, 30, 20 and 15 with a 4 big rotation.. where JV gets 20 mins. I'd need someone that can also play about 15+ mpg though (and I don't think Gray is that guy).

    If you look at the stats, JV's production and +/- are one of the worst on the team. I am okay with that because he's a rookie, but I don't suspect a huge change in his 2nd year. Most bigs blossom in their 3rd/4th years. That's why I'd like some insurance, and therefore a backup center next year.

    Unless if you think Gray is good for 15mpg (I don't) then it's fine I guess. I do agree that a backup PG is far more important than a backup C though.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    If you have 96 minutes between two guys.. you could do something like 30, 30, 20 and 15 with a 4 big rotation.. where JV gets 20 mins. I'd need someone that can also play about 15+ mpg though (and I don't think Gray is that guy).
    Ideally, we'd go 35, 35 and 26. But with Amir and Jonas as foul-prone as they are, I suppose a 4th big is needed for emergencies.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Horrible trade. Dalembert and Tinsley are crap....bigger crap than Bargs by so much. You're basically trading Demar and Bargs for Millsap...Add to that Millsap could easily walk, and you're basically giving away Bargs and Demar for a slim chance to re-sign Millsap. This trade basically means that in addition to a PF hole, and backup big, you will now also have a hole at wing (because you need 4 wings, so Gay, Demar, Ross and Fields is solid).
    But wouldn't having both DeMar and Bargs off the books be a good thing? We have Anderson whom can be the 4th wing and T. Ross can start or get more minutes which is a good thing for his development. Sure Milsap could walk, but we could also offer him an attractive contract which he may not receive elsewhere, not to mention a starting position.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I agree with the last paragraph. I'm just as happy with a straight amnesty as anything.

    However for the rest. There are numerous assumptions made here (a team wants Bargnani, or a team wants to help Toronto out in a deal, plus the questions of what else it would take for Utah to give Toronto Milsap or what Toronto would additionally give up). But even assuming they occur, or something similar, its still doesn't address trying to retain Lowry after signing Milsap.

    Even if we want to assume Bargnani can be moved for Milsap, and MLSE would pay deep into the tax, and would pay Kleiza's amnestied salary on top of that, we are still talking about potentially having one of the highest payrolls in the league after resigning everyone. These aren't impossibilities, but I think trading for Milsap and having a realistic shot at retaining him while maintaining the roster is much more of a pipe dream then anything.
    When discussing Millsap you have to throw out assumptions considering I have not heard one rumour that says that Toronto is even interested in him (if I had to guess, it would be Houston that would get him considering Morey is a stats guy and Millsap is one of the best producing players out there).... but with regards to Lowry's extension it wouldn't matter if Millsap was on the team or not, they would still need a PF regardless (Amir is not a long term answer).

    If it was Gasol then once his contract expires, the Raptors would still have to resign him (and he won't be cheap) or they'd have to try and trade for one (no free agent is coming here, plus they'd have cap issues anyway). So I'm not sure why it would it make a difference if they got Millsap or not. If they need to free up cap they have two expiring contracts in Fields/Amir in 2014 as well as DeMar's contract if they wanted to trade him.

    You also have to consider that the cap is probably going to be raised next season, which could lift the tax as well. Lot of assumptions for sure, but if Bryan is not done tinkering and if Bells/Rogers is willing to spend money then I personally would rather have them go after Millsap than Gasol (or any other potentially available PF).

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    i don't know, I guess my assumption here is that maybe a lot of fans on these forums are overvaluing Paul Millsap. He's also a 3rd, or maybe 2nd option at best, type player. Why go through so much fuss to get him? People are willing to give up more talent to get Millsap than they were to get Gay, a more talented player...what's the deal? Ok, obviously I'd prefer him over Bargs, but how much talent are you going to give up for a him on top of that? Demar is definitely too much, IMO.
    *again, all with no guarantee you can re-sign him, or sign a competent PF to replace him in the offseason. TO fans should know firsthand how much free agency is a crapshoot. You usually end up overpaying for players that fit a need, and the true stars will have choices and dictate where they go, which is not gonna be Toronto...maybe in a couple of years if we're winning
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Feb 6th, 2013 at 11:20 AM.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    That's a much more acceptable package if you're going to trade away both those guys.

  18. #38
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    Too funny! planetmars suggested that yesterday in the 'Is Amir a legit starting PF' thread (http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/sh...rting-PF/page4) in post #62, then I posted a similar trade proposal for after the season (assuming 2013 1st round pick goes to OKC) in post #76.

    My thinking was that DeRozan & Bargnani & 2 x 1st round picks would at least be enough to get Minnesota to consider trading Love & Ridnour & Roy (to match/dump salary, to help them re-sign Pekovic & Buddinger). Minny could also try to turn Bargnani & Williams & 1st round pick(s) into Gasol, if they wanted to.

    Toronto would address both their starting PF & backup PG needs in a single trade. If Gray uses his player option, Lucas's team option is picked-up, Kleiza is amnestied and Roy retires, the Raps would actually shave $6.75M off their team salary for 2013-2014. Their total commitments would be $67,115,165 for 11 players:

    C: Valanciunas, Gray
    PF: Love, Johnson, Acy
    SF: Gay
    SG: Fields, Ross
    PG: Lowry, Ridnour, Lucas

    Anderson could be re-signed as backup SF, or a free agent could be signed.

    Too good to be true!
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Feb 6th, 2013 at 11:27 AM.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    id prob do that in a heart beat if Love would stop braking his hand.. how long is he out for again?? im not sure Kahn could be be that stupid but who knows hes left many scratching there heads in the past..

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Pretty sure If Gay and Demar keep up this electric play we have seen (and why wouldnt they) thete is no way in Hell Colangelo is going to break that up all of you want Demar gone sure but you dontsee the reprocussion of losing him. The guy can score, Gay, DeRozan and Ross can turn into the one of the biggest wing threats in the league come 3 years from now.

    PFs are a dime a dozen a scoing threat in the form of DeRozan not so much. Focus on the problem and the problem is Bargnani

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