View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #8221
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    Quote GoHuskies wrote: View Post
    I still don't like the idea of taking on another bloated contract. Still like the idea of getting some youngs and build with what we have. LA needs to make a move to shore up their PF position and looks like maybe Howard won't be healthy the rest of the year and may not be a fit in LA , Houston would jump at the chance to lock him up or at the very least have the upper hand in resigning him next year.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=at5wnkk


    We get 2 promising PF to add to the stable , and a servicable C for the rest of the year. See our salaries reduced by about 8 mil next year instead of going up 5m.

    LA gets a PF in BArgs that should fit into the D'Antoni system as well as a rebounding big in Asik that doesn't demand the ball , throw in Morris and they are able to still play out the season and then move Gasol in the offseason for more pieces to fix the trainwreck that they are.

    Houston gets their man Howard.....nuff said there.


    Toronto looks like this after swaping Anderson to Utah for Tinsley and waiving Pietrus and Haddadi

    Lowry / Tinsley / Lucas
    DeRozan / Ross
    Gay / Fields / Kleiza
    Johnson / Jones / Montiejunas / Acy
    JV / Gray / Aldrich

    Come summer we can amnesty Kleiza , let Lucas and Aldrich go , try moving Montiejunas to C , Resign Tinsley and then will in the blanks with min contracts and keeping our salary under 65m.
    Howard has been assured that he won't be traded.

  2. #8222
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I haven't read through the whole thread, so apologies if I'm repeating someone's idea. But this trade helps us next year, and that's about it. This year is already over. There's no way we're catching the 8th seed with the hole we've dug.

    Boozer finally gives us a low post thread to attract double-teams, something we've been missing since the Bosh days. The only thing left to address would be the lack of 3pt shooting in the starting lineup. But a lineup of Lowry, DeRozan, Gay, Boozer and Jonas should be enough to win 40 games next year....assuming everyone stays healthy.

    Such a move goes completely against the idea of rebuilding properly through the draft. But as long as Colangelo is in town, we ALL need to get this wish out of our heads, because it ain't happening.

    If none of this works, the worst case scenario is that we have a playoff contender to cheer for the next 2 years. And then we've got a ton of cap space in the summer of 2015 (when Boozer and Gay comes off the books).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  3. #8223
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    You can win a lot of games just making the right plays besides JVs rookie mistakes and or Demars blunders on Defense the money ball can be worked around, Chicago only attempts 4.8 3 pointers a game and they have an amazing record.

  4. #8224
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    It's interesting using the word "classless", because showing class requires an effort. Which means what you're really saying is that it takes an amount of effort to not boo Bargnani. As in, he deserves it but people should show some class and hold back.

    Well, if that's the case then I come back to you with another word -- dignity. Have a little self respect for yourself. Here is a guy who, if he isn't traded will have sucked $71M out of the Toronto Raptors by the end of his contract.

    Taking the following criteria of being 7' with average of 25+ minutes per game, here is where Bargnani ranks in the history of the NBA:
    - dead last in rebounds per game
    - 5th worst all time in FG%
    - 7th worst all time in blocks
    - 1st all time in 3 pointers attempted

    You'll want to argue that this is Colangelo's fault, but the problem with that is Bargnani has the ability to be so much better. Unfortunately he just doesn't care. Plus booing Bargnani is booing Colangelo.

    And then we have fans like you who are putting up an effort to take more. It's like pointing at the guy, turning around and bending over so he can take you right up your rear end. You're sitting in the stands, hearing guys stand up for themselves and their city and instead you think to yourself ""I have class" and do nothing. What's worse is you come to the forums to rant about this.

    I'm sorry, but if that means I have no class, then I don't want to have class in this situation. I'd rather leave the arena with some dignity and I'm glad some fans feel the same way. If this had been anyone else, I can understand but frankly I'm fed up. This is Andrea Bargnani we're talking about.
    Last edited by ebrian; Fri Feb 8th, 2013 at 09:12 AM.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  5. #8225
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    This trade, or any trade that has Kleiza or Fields going to Chicago, defeats the whole purpose on Chicago's end. They are trying to get out of the tax for this season and next season.
    Yep. There was word that they would consider using the Amnesty on Boozer just to stay away from paying the tax.

    I'm back and forth on this trade. I hate Carlos Boozer as a human being, and that kind of makes me not want to trade for him. On the other hand I hate what Bargnani stands for on the court. He's lazy and he doesn't care and that is worse than Boozer being a jackass. We are not rebuilding and thus taking on his contract doesn't matter that much, and he's a pretty good player.

    He adds a lot of the toughness that this team has lacked since Charles Oakley days. Someone said they could see him being angry about being traded to Toronto, and unhappy. We've seen this throughout his career so yea, it could happen. There's a risk there for sure. But then again we're talking about Bargnani. A potentially pouty and half-assed effort from Boozer is still better than what Bargnani has done for us over the last 7 years. Combined.

    A draft pick like you suggested would make this a lot easier for me.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  6. #8226
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Here's SI's take on this trade. (Like Nilanka, I didn't read the full thread, but since this was only recently posted on SI, I think I'm safe)

    "Who wants to swap underwhelming, overpaid power forwards?

    ESPN.com reported that Bulls and Raptors are potentially discussing a Carlos Boozer for Andrea Bargnani swap.

    The Chicago Bulls and Toronto Raptors have engaged in exploratory trade discussions on a deal that would swap the Bulls’ Carlos Boozer for the Raptors’ Andrea Bargnani, according to sources familiar with the discussions.

    Other players with smaller contracts would have to be added to the deal to make the salary-cap math work, should talks indeed progress to a more serious level, but sources told ESPN.com on Thursday that both teams have given consideration to the move.

    The Chicago Tribune reported that the Bulls initiated the trade talks but that a deal between the teams is “unlikely” to come to fruition.

    Boozer, 31, is in the middle of a five-year, $75 million contract that pays him $15 million this season, $15.3 million next season and $16.8 million in 2014-15. He is averaging 15.7 points, 9.6 rebounds, 2.0 assists and shooting 47.2 percent this season.

    Bargnani, 27, is in the middle of a five-year, $50 million contract that pays him $10 million this season, $10.8 million next season and $11.5 million in 2014-15. The final year is a player option, which he’s likely to opt into unless he manages a remarkable and unexpected career revival. This season, Bargnani is averaging 15.9 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.4 assists while shooting just 40.1 percent from the field and 30.9 percent from deep. He missed roughly two months with an elbow injury before returning to action this week.

    Let’s not beat around the bush. This proposed trade would be laughed off the court for basketball reasons. For all of Boozer’s annoyances and faults, he was a fringe All-Star candidate this season and is a key reason why the Bulls have been neck-and-neck with the Pacers at the top of the Central Division despite the absence of Derrick Rose. He’s helped Chicago to a No. 7 ranking in rebound rate and he hasn’t stood in the way of the Bulls’ No. 3 ranking in defensive efficiency. More than half his shot attempts come from the paint and he’s got a solid mid-range shot to keep teams honest.

    Bargnani, on the other hand, has been about as unwatchable as it gets. Take your pick from these words — lethargic, unproductive, inefficient — or take them all. The Raptors were 4-17 with him in the starting lineup to open the season and they went 13-14 before he returned to action on Wednesday. What more do you need to know? He’s an unmotivated defender not known for his toughness who hasn’t been in the postseason since 2008; more than two-thirds of his shot attempts have come from outside the paint over the last two seasons. How or where or why he would fit into Chicago’s plans as anything other than a bridge to clear out Boozer’s contract is a mystery.

    Chicago’s rationale behind this trade proposal, of course, would be all financial. The Bulls sit roughly $5 million over the luxury tax line and are headed into luxury tax territory again next season unless they start trimming. The fundamental issue they face is essentially the same one that broke up the Thunder and Grizzlies: it’s difficult to commit eight-figure (or close) salaries to four different players without incurring more punitive luxury tax penalties under the new collective bargaining agreement. The Thunder elected to downsize out of James Harden, who wanted a max contract, and the Grizzlies shipped off a max guy in Rudy Gay. Boozer, like Gay, is paid as a max player while being one or two steps below a max-quality player. There’s no question that he’s the odd man out if Chicago is choosing between him and Derrick Rose, Luol Deng and Joakim Noah. The Bulls also committed above mid-level money to power forward Taj Gibson, whose new deal goes two years longer than Boozer’s. That all suggests the Bulls are headed towards a post-Boozer reality fairly quickly.

    The question, though, is when. Dumping Boozer now would be a bigger blow than the Harden or Gay trades because of the timing and because they can claim to be legitimate title contenders whereas the Grizzlies are not. The East simply presents an easier route than the West and the Bulls’ current core proved it can advance as far as the East finals in 2011. Chicago, already set to reincorporate Rose into the mix after a season-long rehabilitation from knee surgery, would be stuck dealing with two major moving parts and less than two months of regular season games to get things right if the traded Boozer before the Feb. 21 deadline. Moving Boozer now wouldn’t necessarily be blowing up the season but it would have a major, major impact for a team that is arguably the East’s second best when fully healthy.

    There are a few other advantages to waiting until the offseason. For starters, there’s the amnesty clause, which could be used to clear out Boozer without taking back the $22+ million of future salary owed to Bargnani. If Chicago’s notoriously stingy ownership balks at writing the amnesty check without getting a player back, the summer presents another alternative: trading Boozer into a team’s cap space and taking back smaller salary commitments in an uneven trade. That route could prove to be preferable, as it would keep Chicago’s core intact this season and potentially provide greater cost savings if the right buyer can be found for the final two years of Boozer’s deal.

    As for Toronto, this would amount to another trip on the Bryan Colangelo Express, as Rob Mahoney brilliantly dubbed it. The allure of trading Bargnani is serious, as the team and player are clearly ready for a split, but Toronto needs to be shedding dollars wherever possible, not stockpiling yet another major, multi-year commitment. If this proposal did go through, the Raptors would be looking at a financial commitment of more than $55 million (almost the entire salary cap) to just five players: Gay, Boozer, DeMar DeRozan, Amir Johnson and Landry Fields. That would be a funny thought if it wasn’t so incredibly painful. That core, plus Kyle Lowry, still wouldn’t be a major threat in the East playoffs and their only consolation prize would be finishing second to the Lakers in the “most expensive mediocre team” conversation. Not exactly a place you want to be without the benefits of the Lakers’ television deal.

    In sum, a downsizing style trade involving Boozer makes a lot of sense for the Bulls and it’s coming sooner or later, assuming they decide against the amnesty route. This particular move, though, makes little sense, and one would hope Chicago ownership would be willing to pay to play out their hand the rest of the season. As for the Raptors, they should be running the other direction from taking on new salary, meaning Colangelo is probably licking his lips and opening his wallet in anticipation as we speak."

    http://nba.si.com/2013/02/08/carlos-.../?sct=uk_t2_a3

  7. #8227
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    The question is who do people want, a healthy Gasol or Boozer as of right now? With Gasol's injury, (plantar fascia) I'd stay away from him as far away as possible. I didn't realize that fans have an incredible input in all of this. Most articles I read about AB7's demise in Toronto was borne out of fans' frustrations (it has been 7 years).
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Fri Feb 8th, 2013 at 09:26 AM.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  8. #8228
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    The question is who do people want, a healthy Gasol or Boozer as of right now?
    There's no guarantee that Gasol will continue to be healthy next year or that he'll still play at a high level next year. Boozer has been relatively healthy this season and has been producing productively, so he's a bit safer at the moment IMO. There's too many "what ifs" with Gasol this season and next season...

  9. #8229
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
    There's no guarantee that Gasol will continue to be healthy next year or that he'll still play at a high level next year. Boozer has been relatively healthy this season and has been producing productively, so he's a bit safer at the moment IMO. There's too many "what ifs" with Gasol this season and next season...
    Boozer's contract is terrible though. We can't pay that much for 3 years for what he is. Only way I'd want Boozer is if they amnesty him and we put in a bid much much lower than his current salary. Which is a possibility if we wait until the off-season

  10. #8230
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    I understand the Gay trade. The Raps were willing to pay for Gay's contract based on his performance and age. Gay is at the prime of his career and from a numbers perspective should live up to the contract. Boozer on the other hand, with his age and injury history would cripple this franchise. The more I think about it, the more I don't want it. A healthy Gasol would be preferable for me because there's only one more year of salary (19M) and if he enjoys being here, can be had for cheap in his last NBA contract (like 10M max). This rumour worries me because BC seems like an unstoppable spending train at this point.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  11. #8231
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    This rumour worries me because BC seems like an unstoppable spending train at this point.
    This is what scares me too. He seems like he is pushing hard to make the playoffs this year with no thought of the future. The financial implications of a GM trying to save his job is potentially crippling. The question is what does ownership want; a team built properly or play-off revenues?

  12. #8232
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    This is what scares me too. He seems like he is pushing hard to make the playoffs this year with no thought of the future. The financial implications of a GM trying to save his job is potentially crippling. The question is what does ownership want; a team built properly or play-off revenues?
    I don't think that it should be up to ownership though. They only write checks. Colangelo should have the basketball foresight though. The tax laws in the new CBA is very punitive. Even the likes of the Lakers (and their massive TV deal) are thinking twice about traversing in those waters. We got Gay, he represents a good portion of the future. Now, we just need to wait until the off-season to decide what to do. Letting Bargs build his confidence and value should be top priority.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  13. #8233
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    from what ive read this morning on hoopshype rumors these discusions for Boozer happened weeks ago & league sources say the Raps have Zero Interest in Boozer

  14. #8234
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    D Smith puts some perspective on it (although that's a freakin' huge picture of boozer to put up to say nothing's going on)

    http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/201...day-nears.html

  15. #8235
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    guys stop worrying about what players cost. we aren't GMs, ant the GM we have says MLSE will go into tax territory if it means winning. A serious play off teams starting line costs between 45 - 60 million

  16. #8236
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    from what ive read this morning on hoopshype rumors these discusions for Boozer happened weeks ago & league sources say the Raps have Zero Interest in Boozer
    None of that would suprise me. I'm alot more convinced than most that Colangelo won't be trading Bargnani.

    Besides his traditional attachment to Bargs, I think Toronto would end up having to give up something just to make it work. Speculation on my part but I'm willing to bet there is/was alot more to this deal than meets the eye, especially because Boozer for Bargs straight up doesn't work. I can easily see the discussion being Boozer for Bargs + Ross.

  17. #8237
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    guys stop worrying about what players cost. we aren't GMs, ant the GM we have says MLSE will go into tax territory if it means winning. A serious play off teams starting line costs between 45 - 60 million
    There is still a salary cap with rules. Those rules make it more difficult to make future moves.

    A players cost shouldn't be ignored.

  18. #8238
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    There is still a salary cap with rules. Those rules make it more difficult to make future moves.

    A players cost shouldn't be ignored.
    i agree... this isnt baseball... if it were i wouldnt care if he had an A.Rod deal if he can play it out.. but this is basketball & salary is a huge concern unless the player being aquired is top tier talent inthere prime with little history of severe injury..

  19. #8239
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    There is still a salary cap with rules. Those rules make it more difficult to make future moves.

    A players cost shouldn't be ignored.
    THESE moves don't though. If we picked up Boozer we would have 50 million coming off the books in 2015. That's only two seasons. Which means we would have that much as trade chips as well. Giant expiring contracts are attractive.

  20. #8240
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    There is still a salary cap with rules. Those rules make it more difficult to make future moves.

    A players cost shouldn't be ignored.
    You don't have to ignore it, but it really isn't the defining factor a lot of fans seem to make it when discussing players.

    Aside from his contract, though, Boozer is not attractive for the same reasons Pau isn't attractive: old and declining, and -- here's where the contract DOES come into play -- not likely to be moveable in 2 years when he's expiring, if you assume he continues to get older and keep declining. He also doesn't play a lick of defense; he's probably worse than Bargnani.

    Toronto stands to gain nothing from this deal outside of a possible 3-5 additional wins this year (at the expense of developing the younger players), which makes it hard to accept the idea that Chicago would actually be looking at MORE return... IMO, to be remotely possible, Chicago would have to keep Nate Robinson and give Toronto Teague instead. And BC could throw in Anderson along with Lucas, who Chicago apparently wants back.

    This is a lot like the Gay deal -- Chicago is looking to dump Boozer, not get anything back for him. They know he's tough to move, so they're basically saying "take our crap, we'll take yours".
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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