View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #9201
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Gasol....better player all around. Shorter contract. More versatile.

    There's no way in which Boozer is actually better than Gasol, except that he should be easier to acquire.

    I see a surprising amount of Boozer fans in this thread...but why?
    -Gasol is a better scorer
    -Gasol is a better passer
    -Gasol is a better defensive presence
    -Gasol is at least as good a rebounder
    -Gasol can line up at both big spots
    -Gasol has won 2 rings to Boozer's none
    -Gasol has a better injury history, or at least not worse (just because Boozer's been healthy recently shouldn't negate that he's had far more issues over his career)
    -Boozer is not "tougher" or "grittier" than Gasol. Just because a guy has a wide body, does not make him a tough player. I don't know what evidence could support such a claim.
    -Finally, a shorter contract is better. Neither player have big odds of being long-term keepers, so the guy who comes off the books first is best so you can move forward with actual team-building (as opposed to bandaid measures). Boozer is a bandaid that is costly since your team gets frozen or 2 years. Gasol is not. One year and he's gone.

    I really don't see any way in which Boozer is better, again, other than him being easier to acquire.
    Boozer is a year younger. I don't see Pau being attainable if Lakers make the playoffs. It seem like him and Dwight are finally starting to learn to play with each other at least offensively.

  2. #9202
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Gasol....better player all around. Shorter contract. More versatile.

    There's no way in which Boozer is actually better than Gasol, except that he should be easier to acquire.

    I see a surprising amount of Boozer fans in this thread...but why?
    -Gasol is a better scorer
    -Gasol is a better passer
    -Gasol is a better defensive presence
    -Gasol is at least as good a rebounder
    -Gasol can line up at both big spots
    -Gasol has won 2 rings to Boozer's none
    -Gasol has a better injury history, or at least not worse (just because Boozer's been healthy recently shouldn't negate that he's had far more issues over his career)
    -Boozer is not "tougher" or "grittier" than Gasol. Just because a guy has a wide body, does not make him a tough player. I don't know what evidence could support such a claim..
    Im sorry White men but a lot of these points are negated..... Pau Gasol regulary gets dunked on is very slow awful defender and so is Boozer Gasol may be a tad better simply because he is taller. Ya Gasol has 2 rings playing beside Kobe Bryant and Bynum in LAL will do that Luke Walton also has a ring lets go get him seriously that doesnt matter.... Boozer is a better player. Gasol is listed as one of the softest players in the league right there beside Bargnani injured every 10 games or so. Gasol is a good rebounder yes he is you saying Boozer isnt? Gasol is only a better scorer because over the years hes playing beside Kobe who draws so much attention, mainly putbacks Boozer is a #2 option behind Rose on the bulls and plays through tons of attention from defenders has a varied skillset. Gasol flops like no other big in the league Boozer doesnt Gasol gets away with it simply because he plays in LAL.

    Gasol is not a better player than Boozer..

  3. #9203
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    The Raptors are trying to get better and stronger not..... Soft. Kobe Bryant calls him soft, Phil Jackson calls him soft everyone he has ever played with has called him a soft guy I dont want JV anywhere near Gasol.
    Last edited by Rapstor4Life; Thu Apr 11th, 2013 at 01:33 PM.

  4. #9204
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Boozer is a year younger. I don't see Pau being attainable if Lakers make the playoffs. It seem like him and Dwight are finally starting to learn to play with each other at least offensively.
    Does that make him better? No. It doesn't even make him more reliable, given their respective injury histories. He is definitely more attainable, and I said that's basically his only advantage.

    That said, I still think there's a fairly good chance Pau is traded this summer. Their luxury tax bill with all 4 future HOFers on their team will be absolutely insane, even for a deep pocket team. And they will struggle greatly to add quality pieces as well, because of that situation (like they did this year...they have dreadful depth and can't go through another year like that). If they can turn Pau into 2-3 players that can slide into their system, and cut even 2-3 million, that could be very attractive to them.

  5. #9205
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Gasol....better player all around. Shorter contract. More versatile.

    There's no way in which Boozer is actually better than Gasol, except that he should be easier to acquire.

    I see a surprising amount of Boozer fans in this thread...but why?
    -Gasol is a better scorer
    -Gasol is a better passer
    -Gasol is a better defensive presence
    -Gasol is at least as good a rebounder
    -Gasol can line up at both big spots
    -Gasol has won 2 rings to Boozer's none
    -Gasol has a better injury history, or at least not worse (just because Boozer's been healthy recently shouldn't negate that he's had far more issues over his career)
    -Boozer is not "tougher" or "grittier" than Gasol. Just because a guy has a wide body, does not make him a tough player. I don't know what evidence could support such a claim.
    -Finally, a shorter contract is better. Neither player have big odds of being long-term keepers, so the guy who comes off the books first is best so you can move forward with actual team-building (as opposed to bandaid measures). Boozer is a bandaid that is costly since your team gets frozen or 2 years. Gasol is not. One year and he's gone.

    I really don't see any way in which Boozer is better, again, other than him being easier to acquire.
    #1 reason for Boozer over Gasol is who would need to be sent out to acquire each.

    To acquire Boozer will only take Bargs, and we might even be able to get them to send us a pick too.

    To acquire Gasol, we'd have to send Bargs + DD (or Ross), which is way too much for a one year rental of a guy coming off an injury plagued season.

    #2 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
    The current Raps team with either guy at PF is probably going to result in roughly the same amount of wins, playoff position, and playoff exit time. Gasol may equal 1-4 more wins, if he stays healthy all year, than Boozer would. His extra value isn't enough to overcome the fact we'd have to include DD or Ross.

    #3 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
    Boozer's contract lines up with our huge cap clear in 2015. If we're being realistic, that is when the Raps will finally have cap space. There is no way in hell they're moving Gay for a huge 1 year contract similar to Gasol's to free up the cap space a year earlier, so once again another Gasol advantage goes by the wayside. We'd still have no cap room in 2014 as long as Gay is still here, and if you're being realistic then you know there's a 99.999% chance he will be. Even if we got a new GM, he's not going to make his first move shipping out our best player for pennies on the $.

    #4 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
    It's a culmination of the above points. We get a playoff team for 2 seasons (5-8 seed), then we have a huge cap clear in 2015 when Jonas, Ross, and DD are the only guys under contract and ready to take over. We could spend to bring in whatever big FA are available, and hopefully have a more championship caliber squad in 2015.

    Gasol is the better player, but his contract, what it would take to get him, and the difference in wins vs Boozer instead is not enough to pick Gasol over Boozer.

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  7. #9206
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Im sorry White men but a lot of these points are negated..... Pau Gasol regulary gets dunked on is very slow awful defender and so is Boozer Gasol may be a tad better simply because he is taller. Ya Gasol has 2 rings playing beside Kobe Bryant and Bynum in LAL will do that Luke Walton also has a ring lets go get him seriously that doesnt matter.... Boozer is a better player. Gasol is listed as one of the softest players in the league right there beside Bargnani injured every 10 games or so. Gasol is a good rebounder yes he is you saying Boozer isnt? Gasol is only a better scorer because over the years hes playing beside Kobe who draws so much attention, mainly putbacks Boozer is a #2 option behind Rose on the bulls and plays through tons of attention from defenders has a varied skillset. Gasol flops like no other big in the league Boozer doesnt Gasol gets away with it simply because he plays in LAL.

    Gasol is not a better player than Boozer..
    -One, Pau is not that soft. He gets a bad rep for plaing in a market with lots and lots of attention.
    Pau has played in 80+ games 4 times....Boozer 2 times. This will be the first season Pau has played less than 50 games (which Boozer has done twice). Pau has played in roughly 87% possible career games, Boozer in 80%. Define how Boozer is less soft.

    -Two, Pau has been the 2nd best player on a championship team twice, and the best player on a FIBA gold, and 2 Olympic silver medal wins. Boozer has been the 2nd best player on 3 teams that haven't won championships, with LeBron early on in Cleveland (acceptable given their youth), with D-Will in Utah (declining success after first season together), and now with D-Rose in Chicago (where injuries have been an issue having them both at the same time, but doesn't that come back to "softness" if you think it has to do with missing games?). I don't know how it's a negative that Pau was playing 2nd fiddle to Kobe Bryant, easily the best wing of his generation and arguably best player (with Tim Duncan). That's like saying Manu and Parker are bad players because they played with Duncan. That's a messed up argument

    -Third and coming back to softness, lists are stupid and subjective, especially when they come from random journalists/bloggers. I can't consider a guy soft if he is able to perform at the highest level of competition, both in the NBA and in FIBA related competitions. Does he flop? Yes, maybe more than some guys. Does he whine and complain comically? Yes. Does he make stupid plays because of his softness? No. He still rebounds, scores, protects the basket, makes solid passes and generally impacts all areas of the game. Softness is about how you play, not hwo you look. He won his rings going up against Perkins-KG twice (winning once), and Howard (winning once), and being effective in both wins. That is not soft. Soft is when you disappear because of physicality/pressure, and this has never really been an issue for Pau.

    *there are lots of tough players who flop. Reggie Evans, CP3, Anderson Varejao, Manu....flopping is not the same as softness

  8. #9207
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    #1 reason for Boozer over Gasol is who would need to be sent out to acquire each.

    To acquire Boozer will only take Bargs, and we might even be able to get them to send us a pick too.

    To acquire Gasol, we'd have to send Bargs + DD (or Ross), which is way too much for a one year rental of a guy coming off an injury plagued season.

    #2 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
    The current Raps team with either guy at PF is probably going to result in roughly the same amount of wins, playoff position, and playoff exit time. Gasol may equal 1-4 more wins, if he stays healthy all year, than Boozer would. His extra value isn't enough to overcome the fact we'd have to include DD or Ross.

    #3 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
    Boozer's contract lines up with our huge cap clear in 2015. If we're being realistic, that is when the Raps will finally have cap space. There is no way in hell they're moving Gay for a huge 1 year contract similar to Gasol's to free up the cap space a year earlier, so once again another Gasol advantage goes by the wayside. We'd still have no cap room in 2014 as long as Gay is still here, and if you're being realistic then you know there's a 99.999% chance he will be. Even if we got a new GM, he's not going to make his first move shipping out our best player for pennies on the $.

    #4 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
    It's a culmination of the above points. We get a playoff team for 2 seasons (5-8 seed), then we have a huge cap clear in 2015 when Jonas, Ross, and DD are the only guys under contract and ready to take over. We could spend to bring in whatever big FA are available, and hopefully have a more championship caliber squad in 2015.

    Gasol is the better player, but his contract, what it would take to get him, and the difference in wins vs Boozer instead is not enough to pick Gasol over Boozer.
    One last point I forgot to make is that the 2015 FA class is exponentially better for the Raps than the 2014 FA class. Unless we think we can sign Kobe or Dirk, who the hell is the target in 2014? The next tier in 2014 is Deng, Granger, Bogut, Gortat, then a huge drop to Humphries, then basically no one. I'm not counting RFA as realistic since in this new CBA they really aren't. How many RFA changed teams this past season without a trade involved? I think none, but I could be wrong.

    In 2015 you have much more realistic Raps options like ZBo, Aldridge, Marc Gasol, Asik, Rondo, Lin, Nash, Lou Williams, Danny Green, Marcus Thornton, Wesley Matthews, Prince, Gerald Green, Scola, Chandler, Melo, Amare, Gay (discount?), Frye, and a few others on a sliding scale of talent.

    We can't just say "cap space = good" without knowing what is available that year with cap. Cap space in 2014 is rather useless to most teams unless you think you can convince one of the big 3 to jump ship, which isn't going to happen.

  9. #9208
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    If you had your choice for this current team. Who would you pick?


    Marc J Spears: Bargnani is gone. I do not see him going back to Toronto unless he's a visitor. Keep an eye on teams like Chicago Bulls. That would be a team that could be interested in him. Yahoo! Sports
    TORONTO RAPTORS, TRADE, ANDREA BARGNANI | SHARE
    Boozer for AB then amnesty kleiza might work.

    Marc J Spears: Bargnani is gone. I do not see him going back to Toronto unless he's a visitor. Keep an eye on teams like Chicago Bulls. That would be a team that could be interested in him. Yahoo! Sports
    TORONTO RAPTORS, TRADE, ANDREA BARGNANI | SHARE
    Boozer for AB then amnesty Kleiza

  10. #9209
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    #1 reason for Boozer over Gasol is who would need to be sent out to acquire each.

    To acquire Boozer will only take Bargs, and we might even be able to get them to send us a pick too.

    To acquire Gasol, we'd have to send Bargs + DD (or Ross), which is way too much for a one year rental of a guy coming off an injury plagued season.

    #2 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
    The current Raps team with either guy at PF is probably going to result in roughly the same amount of wins, playoff position, and playoff exit time. Gasol may equal 1-4 more wins, if he stays healthy all year, than Boozer would. His extra value isn't enough to overcome the fact we'd have to include DD or Ross.

    #3 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
    Boozer's contract lines up with our huge cap clear in 2015. If we're being realistic, that is when the Raps will finally have cap space. There is no way in hell they're moving Gay for a huge 1 year contract similar to Gasol's to free up the cap space a year earlier, so once again another Gasol advantage goes by the wayside. We'd still have no cap room in 2014 as long as Gay is still here, and if you're being realistic then you know there's a 99.999% chance he will be. Even if we got a new GM, he's not going to make his first move shipping out our best player for pennies on the $.

    #4 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
    It's a culmination of the above points. We get a playoff team for 2 seasons (5-8 seed), then we have a huge cap clear in 2015 when Jonas, Ross, and DD are the only guys under contract and ready to take over. We could spend to bring in whatever big FA are available, and hopefully have a more championship caliber squad in 2015.

    Gasol is the better player, but his contract, what it would take to get him, and the difference in wins vs Boozer instead is not enough to pick Gasol over Boozer.
    First off, I agreed that Boozer would be easier to acquire, but I took this thread to focus more on who you'd prefer.

    Second, you can't just statistically predict wins. You can't say either guy theoretically adds the same amount of wins if they're slotted at PF. Gasol brings better skills. Getting a better player, talent and skill wise, who also fits the needs of a post presence even more (better scorer and passer, IMO), should work out better, if you ask me.

    Third, on the contract, there's way too much up in the air to suggest that 2015 will stay a summer of flexibility. Right now, the Raptors have really big depth/talent issues up front, serious questions about the PG spot, redundancy at the wings, and just generally need more talent (even if a fair amount comes from internal growth). They cannot pass up opportunities to improve their team, so there may very well be deals happening to address different issues, either this summer or during the season. At the very least we have to see what options are out there for Bargs to have any sense of the future financial outlook. And getting Pau does not, strictly speaking, sacrifice any flexibility for 2015, especially if the extra player is someone like Fields (another awful contract). You can easily just sign stopgap players to fill holes for a season, especially when you're talking about backup bigs and wings.

    The only real issue with Pau will come down to what it takes to get a deal done. Like I said, I wouldn't trade Demar (who I'd only trade for a long-term piece, and ideally in a package to truly upgrade talent), and that means that they'd basically have to want Landry Fields....and that's a pretty tough pill for them to swallow with Bargs. That said, I'm also not sure what the market will be like for Pau this summer, as teams should not want to add his money any more than they should want to add Boozer's or Bargnani's.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Apr 11th, 2013 at 02:37 PM.

  11. #9210
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    One last point I forgot to make is that the 2015 FA class is exponentially better for the Raps than the 2014 FA class. Unless we think we can sign Kobe or Dirk, who the hell is the target in 2014? The next tier in 2014 is Deng, Granger, Bogut, Gortat, then a huge drop to Humphries, then basically no one. I'm not counting RFA as realistic since in this new CBA they really aren't. How many RFA changed teams this past season without a trade involved? I think none, but I could be wrong.

    In 2015 you have much more realistic Raps options like ZBo, Aldridge, Marc Gasol, Asik, Rondo, Lin, Nash, Lou Williams, Danny Green, Marcus Thornton, Wesley Matthews, Prince, Gerald Green, Scola, Chandler, Melo, Amare, Gay (discount?), Frye, and a few others on a sliding scale of talent.

    We can't just say "cap space = good" without knowing what is available that year with cap. Cap space in 2014 is rather useless to most teams unless you think you can convince one of the big 3 to jump ship, which isn't going to happen.
    Oh, and also, my general opinion is that capspace is overrated. Most often you overpay for a player and then just pray that they will be close to value. So I'm always in favor of moving bad contracts for better ones. Bargs' contract is worse than Gasol's because of length and untradeability of player. Boozer's contract is worse than Gasol's as well. I am for moves that remove bad contracts as fast as possible, regardless of implications on signings.

    I firmly believe the 2 easiest ways to acquire high-calibre talent is through smart drafting and trading. So IMO, I don't care about 2015 capspace...I just want to cut the deadweight (and associated money) ASAP. Cutting pay isn't just about capspace, but about getting farther from the luxury tax, which also gives ownership more comfort when absorbing more money again. In that sense, Gasol is also a better move, if other deals the team likes become available. I know I shouldn't care about money, but the owners clearly do.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Apr 11th, 2013 at 02:29 PM.

  12. #9211
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Not sure I agree.

    D'Antoni might have said it best:



    The last five games he is averaging 18 points, 10 rebounds, 6 assists on 59% shooting.

    I think health was a big factor as well. Appears his foot is finally healthy.
    He's certainly been playing better since his return, but it's a pretty short time frame. I can't look past an entire season, playoffs from last season and periods prior to that where he didn't play up to standards, because of the last 6 games, but we'll know for sure once the playoffs get here.

  13. #9212
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    He's certainly been playing better since his return, but it's a pretty short time frame. I can't look past an entire season, playoffs from last season and periods prior to that where he didn't play up to standards, because of the last 6 games, but we'll know for sure once the playoffs get here.
    But if playoffs are part of anyone's gauging, Boozer has also somehow become totally useless in the playoffs the last couple of seasons. Just alarmingly so because he used to be a solid playoff performer. I don't think either one can be expected to play the #2 role like they used to for a whole season and playoffs.

    OH, another thing I like about the difference in deal lengths: I really don't think this team will need someone like Boozer demanding minutes and touches by JV's 3rd season. I like the idea of getting that roster space back after just one season, even if it means just using stopgaps to maintain capspace for 2015. Then you can re-mould the bigs spots around JV and Amir again to allow them, but mainly JV, to thrive.

  14. #9213
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    He's certainly been playing better since his return, but it's a pretty short time frame. I can't look past an entire season, playoffs from last season and periods prior to that where he didn't play up to standards, because of the last 6 games, but we'll know for sure once the playoffs get here.
    That is true.

    13 games is the minimum for determining.

    *damn*

    Hopefully one day that will be funny for Raptor fans. Right now it still hurts.
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  15. #9214
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    #1 reason for Boozer over Gasol is who would need to be sent out to acquire each.

    To acquire Boozer will only take Bargs, and we might even be able to get them to send us a pick too.

    To acquire Gasol, we'd have to send Bargs + DD (or Ross), which is way too much for a one year rental of a guy coming off an injury plagued season.

    #2 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
    The current Raps team with either guy at PF is probably going to result in roughly the same amount of wins, playoff position, and playoff exit time. Gasol may equal 1-4 more wins, if he stays healthy all year, than Boozer would. His extra value isn't enough to overcome the fact we'd have to include DD or Ross.

    #3 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
    Boozer's contract lines up with our huge cap clear in 2015. If we're being realistic, that is when the Raps will finally have cap space. There is no way in hell they're moving Gay for a huge 1 year contract similar to Gasol's to free up the cap space a year earlier, so once again another Gasol advantage goes by the wayside. We'd still have no cap room in 2014 as long as Gay is still here, and if you're being realistic then you know there's a 99.999% chance he will be. Even if we got a new GM, he's not going to make his first move shipping out our best player for pennies on the $.

    #4 Reason for Boozer over Gasol
    It's a culmination of the above points. We get a playoff team for 2 seasons (5-8 seed), then we have a huge cap clear in 2015 when Jonas, Ross, and DD are the only guys under contract and ready to take over. We could spend to bring in whatever big FA are available, and hopefully have a more championship caliber squad in 2015.

    Gasol is the better player, but his contract, what it would take to get him, and the difference in wins vs Boozer instead is not enough to pick Gasol over Boozer.
    I like your post - good points.

    The bold is one area I would question. Danny Ferry's first move in Atlanta was sending out the best player for pennies on the dollar - an older and more expensive player at that.

    However, I think we can safely say Colangelo's LAST move will not be sending out Gay for pennies on the dollar.
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Oh, and also, my general opinion is that capspace is overrated. Most often you overpay for a player and then just pray that they will be close to value. So I'm always in favor of moving bad contracts for better ones. Bargs' contract is worse than Gasol's because of length and untradeability of player. Boozer's contract is worse than Gasol's as well. I am for moves that remove bad contracts as fast as possible, regardless of implications on signings.

    I firmly believe the 2 easiest ways to acquire high-calibre talent is through smart drafting and trading. So IMO, I don't care about 2015 capspace...I just want to cut the deadweight (and associated money) ASAP. Cutting pay isn't just about capspace, but about getting farther from the luxury tax, which also gives ownership more comfort when absorbing more money again. In that sense, Gasol is also a better move, if other deals the team likes become available. I know I shouldn't care about money, but the owners clearly do.
    In the new CBA, cap space should be much more beneficial in trades. Big reason why DeRozan's extension pissed me off so much.
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  17. #9216
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    In the new CBA, cap space should be much more beneficial in trades. Big reason why DeRozan's extension pissed me off so much.
    Cap space is always beneficial in trades, but what is even more beneficial is having quality assets to trade.

    Right now, the Raptors have 4 "assets" in my view: Amir, Demar, Ross, Lowry.....JV is untouchable. These guys are guys that teams will WANT for something they bring to the game. In order to get an upgrade in talent somewhere, it will cost one or two of these guys to start building any package.

    I don't know what to call Bargnani...I suppose he's an "asset" if he can bring back a Boozer or Gasol, but what is he if he brings Spencer Hawes and filler?

    Then you just have filler....Fields being both filler and an awful contract. No one on the rest of the roster, Gay included, is someone you can use to get a talent upgrade via trade.

    Using money alone, or money and picks, is not likely to bring back the kind of player this team would need to take the next step. I don't think you'll see repeats of what happened iwth the guys going to Miami for basicaly just picks. Teams will be more aggressive and unwilling to let someone walk for basically nothing, becasue the draft is always pretty unceratin. And for instance, I don't think there's a chance in hell Rajon Rondo would ever sign with Toronto as a free agent (lets say unrestricted). Why would he make that choice when there are sure to be other teams offering a player of his calibre equal or better money and chance to win?

    The best opportunity to get him(or that calibre of player) is to do so via a trade before he finishes his contract, because Rondo also probably wouldn't be against playing in Toronto if the team is moving in the right direction. It's just never going to be a first choice in free agency, but it's also a city guys generally like. You'll usually only end up getting guys in the 2nd or 3rd tier as free agents, and overpay them at that. For me, the situation I keep thinking of is Chris Paul going to the Clippers. Does anyone believe in a million years he would choose them, even with Griffin there, if he played out his current contract somewhere else? He'd probably go to Dallas or someplace like that with an established star, solid ownership and management, and a winning history. It is unsure if Toronto could offer a star free agent any of those things in 2015, as Gay is a borderline star at best (whose future contract has to be cheaper for keeping him to make sense), and JV may not be enough on his own to attract a guy here.

    Now, as far using the money during the season as part of a trade, well, that's clearly not the situation being talked about unless they end up striking out completely in 2015 free agency, which is entirely possible if this team stays mediocre and JV stays the only worthwhile building block. To me, it all keeps coming back to this team having to pull off one more significant trade before 2015 if they want to keep moving in the right direction, otherwise it's basically rebuilding again, this time hoping JV can stay patient for a couple of bad years as he's hitting his prime. I mean, yes, the team could have signficant cap space, but if they're losing (or barely winning) and JV's the only keeper, it's not going to be an attractive situation. JV would have to look like an MVP type player by then for there to be any chance to attract guys....and then the issue becomes how do you get guys via trade? Will Demar's contract seem better/worse at that point? Will Ross blossom or fade? Lowry could be long gone by then.

    *I feel like I've helped sidetrack the discussion. Sorry. Wasn't this supposed to be just a preference? Contracts/attainability aside, I'd choose Gasol every time. Accounting for attainability, I'd go with Boozer, unless for some reason LA wants Fields...I would not give up Demar/Ross for anything other than a long-term piece
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Apr 11th, 2013 at 03:21 PM.

  18. #9217
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    Gasol. Shorter contract, better player, and I like the idea of him mentoring JV for a season before his contract runs out.

  19. #9218
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Cap space is always beneficial in trades, but what is even more beneficial is having quality assets to trade.

    Right now, the Raptors have 4 "assets" in my view: Amir, Demar, Ross, Lowry.....JV is untouchable. These guys are guys that teams will WANT for something they bring to the game. In order to get an upgrade in talent somewhere, it will cost one or two of these guys to start building any package.

    I don't know what to call Bargnani...I suppose he's an "asset" if he can bring back a Boozer or Gasol, but what is he if he brings Spencer Hawes and filler?

    Then you just have filler....Fields being both filler and an awful contract. No one on the rest of the roster, Gay included, is someone you can use to get a talent upgrade via trade.

    Using money alone, or money and picks, is not likely to bring back the kind of player this team would need to take the next step. I don't think you'll see repeats of what happened iwth the guys going to Miami for basicaly just picks. Teams will be more aggressive and unwilling to let someone walk for basically nothing, becasue the draft is always pretty unceratin. And for instance, I don't think there's a chance in hell Rajon Rondo would ever sign with Toronto as a free agent (lets say unrestricted). Why would he make that choice when there are sure to be other teams offering a player of his calibre equal or better money and chance to win?

    The best opportunity to get him(or that calibre of player) is to do so via a trade before he finishes his contract, because Rondo also probably wouldn't be against playing in Toronto if the team is moving in the right direction. It's just never going to be a first choice in free agency, but it's also a city guys generally like. You'll usually only end up getting guys in the 2nd or 3rd tier as free agents, and overpay them at that. For me, the situation I keep thinking of is Chris Paul going to the Clippers. Does anyone believe in a million years he would choose them, even with Griffin there, if he played out his current contract somewhere else? He'd probably go to Dallas or someplace like that with an established star, solid ownership and management, and a winning history. It is unsure if Toronto could offer a star free agent any of those things in 2015, as Gay is a borderline star at best (whose future contract has to be cheaper for keeping him to make sense), and JV may not be enough on his own to attract a guy here.

    Now, as far using the money during the season as part of a trade, well, that's clearly not the situation being talked about unless they end up striking out completely in 2015 free agency, which is entirely possible if this team stays mediocre and JV stays the only worthwhile building block. To me, it all keeps coming back to this team having to pull off one more significant trade before 2015 if they want to keep moving in the right direction, otherwise it's basically rebuilding again, this time hoping JV can stay patient for a couple of bad years as he's hitting his prime. I mean, yes, the team could have signficant cap space, but if they're losing (or barely winning) and JV's the only keeper, it's not going to be an attractive situation. JV would have to look like an MVP type player by then for there to be any chance to attract guys....and then the issue becomes how do you get guys via trade? Will Demar's contract seem better/worse at that point? Will Ross blossom or fade? Lowry could be long gone by then.

    *I feel like I've helped sidetrack the discussion. Sorry. Wasn't this supposed to be just a preference? Contracts/attainability aside, I'd choose Gasol every time. Accounting for attainability, I'd go with Boozer, unless for some reason LA wants Fields...I would not give up Demar/Ross for anything other than a long-term piece
    Of course. My point is with Luxury taxes becoming exponentially more penalizing, taking salary from teams is going to become extremely enticing in a trade partner.

    Example, assuming Howard resigns in LA next year for max, cutting $8M from the Lakers is going to save between $34-38M in salary and tax.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  20. #9219
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Of course. My point is with Luxury taxes becoming exponentially more penalizing, taking salary from teams is going to become extremely enticing in a trade partner.

    Example, assuming Howard resigns in LA next year for max, cutting $8M from the Lakers is going to save between $34-38M in salary and tax.
    Yes, in that sense, I totally agree. And that's one of the reasons I think there's even any chance of getting Gasol. I'm sure LA will want to cut at least a bit of payroll in any deal.

    Toronto getting Gasol may cloud things beyond next season, but the future of the team is pretty cloudy in general. I see no reason why getting him would sacrifice flexibilty after his contract is over. A team doesn't have to make another long-term investment immediately after one is loosed.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Apr 11th, 2013 at 03:53 PM.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Yes, in that sense, I totally agree. And that's one of the reasons I think there's even any chance of getting Gasol. I'm sure LA will want to cut at least a bit of payroll in any deal.

    Toronto getting Gasol may cloud things beyond next season, but the future of the team is pretty cloudy in general. I see no reason why getting him would sacrifice flexibilty after his contract is over. A team doesn't have to make another long-term investment immediately after one is loosed.
    I don't see an extra year as being a long term investment but whatever.

    Any trade with LA is going to need a third team unless LA is not making a trade looking for salary relief purposes.

    I put up a trade with Minnesota being a third team with Lakers & Raptors. Also Bargnani for Boozer is straightforward. Whatever deal Toronto can get a first round pick from is what I would pursue. I think sending DeRozan out in ANY deal needs a first round draft pick coming back.

    Lots of negativity around this draft but solid players come from every draft.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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