Bargnani for... Boozer?!?!

[octothorp]

Because Chicago (not a div opponent but i assume you meant conference) is making this trade for financial reasons rather than competitive reasons (at least on the surface). We aren't giving them cap space that they can use to sign a major free agent. At best it'll give them enough cap space to use the full MLE. We help out their pocketbooks they help our roster. For us as Toronto fans, that's a win. If we can get a draft pick out of it (preferably that Charlotte protected), even better.

If we've got ownership willing to spend into the tax, we can use that to our advantage to acquire guys who are talented but overpaid, and then retain those guys under bird rights in the new, fiscally tighter nba. There's a rare window right now to execute that strategy. I'm not saying it's a great strategy, but I can see the logic in it.

[torch19]

As far as I can see, we have been getting beat up on the boards and teams have been scoring in the paint at will. I know for a fact that Boozer addresses the rebounding situation, he also can't be a worse team defender than Bargnani. He certainly shows more balls and emotion than Primo. I really don't care about the cap situation as much. After all, all that money Rogers has been ripped me will be put to use on the Raptors at least. And that $5 M difference in contracts per year .... Kleiza makes $5 M. Those are the type of guys we find in free agency.

[Matt52]

Layups: A league source said talks with the Raptors regarding a potential Carlos Boozer for Andrea Bargnani trade have ended and it's unlikely Boozer will be moved before Thursday's trade deadline.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,1519165.story

Good news for some!

[Matt52]

Carlos Boozer has really picked his game up this season and has contributed greatly to the Bulls success. The 10-year veteran has been an easy target for fans complaining about his salary as it relates to his on-court production, but this season, Booz has earned every dime.

When word of a potential trade of Boozer for the Toronto Raptors’ Andrea Bargnani surfaced last week, even the harshest of his critics didn’t want to see that deal go down, and with good reason. Boozer has been one of the most, if not the most, valuable player on Tom Thibodeau’s roster this season.

Source: http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/outs...#ixzz2L45iVfn3

.

[white men can't jump]

Good news for some!

Well, I hope that's true....

I also thought today, I feel like BC is the type of guy who would despise the leaks (and the nature of them) coming out of this deal. They are very much trying to publicly pressure Toronto into taking this deal.

[Balls of Steel]

Because Chicago (not a div opponent but i assume you meant conference) is making this trade for financial reasons rather than competitive reasons (at least on the surface). We aren't giving them cap space that they can use to sign a major free agent. At best it'll give them enough cap space to use the full MLE. We help out their pocketbooks they help our roster. For us as Toronto fans, that's a win. If we can get a draft pick out of it (preferably that Charlotte protected), even better.

If we've got ownership willing to spend into the tax, we can use that to our advantage to acquire guys who are talented but overpaid, and then retain those guys under bird rights in the new, fiscally tighter nba. There's a rare window right now to execute that strategy. I'm not saying it's a great strategy, but I can see the logic in it.

Sorry, meant conference. Boozer's age and money owed scares me (yes, it's not my money). Unlike the Blue Jays situation, the likes of Miami and New York are not on the downside (with aging players and crazy contracts). We'll have to wait until Feb. 22 I guess.

[bobbybutler]

That is interesting.

But lets look at net total points.

In 30% of Toronto's minutes played, Bargnani on the court has resulted in minus 77 points.

In 59% of Chicago's minutes played, Boozer on the court has resulted in minus 33 points.

Putting that in perspective in half the time on court Bargnani has resulted in a net negative effect of over double the points. So I VERY MUCH DISAGREE that 15 minutes of Bargnani is better than 30 minutes of Boozer.

Boozer's results are hardly spectacular but he is still a major SUPERSTAR in comparison to Bargnani.

This deal makes the Raptors better and adds talent. Wait to the last minute to squeeze out a draft pick if possible but, whether that happens or not, lets do it Bryan!

http://www.82games.com/1112/11CHI12.HTM#onoff
http://www.82games.com/1213/12TOR15.HTM#onoff

Total Minutes-ON/OFF

Boozer-1948/1238
Bargnani-740/1709

Minutes per game

Boozer-31.1
Bargnani-30.8

How does a player averaging 30 minutes per game spend less time off the court than on it? 30% of a team's total minutes, including games when Andrea is hurt.

http://www.hoopdata.com/splits.aspx?...rea%20Bargnani
http://www.hoopdata.com/splits.aspx?...arlos%20Boozer

Don't have the time to do the math for net defensive rating for his last 4 games off the bench. So I will use plus/minus and a very small sample size, so take it for what its worth.

Boozer as starter- 31.1 minutes per game/ -1.0 plus minus per game/ -48 total
Bargnani as starter- 31.8 minutes/ -3.8 plus minus per game/ -81 total
Bargnani off the bench- 20.8 minutes per game/ +0.5 plus minus per game/ +2 total

For all the Hollinger fans:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=agacaan

Chicago:
Bargnani 12.3 PER
Lucas 15.0 PER

Toronto:
Boozer 17.1 PER
Robinson 18.5 PER

Trade results in +5 wins for Toronto and -11 wins for Chicago.


Based on Robinson's production, he might be the hidden gem here - with the major assumption that he has matured and accepts he is a good backup PG in the NBA.

http://www.blogabull.com/2012/9/21/3...ollinger-style

What's also obviously not good enough is his mostly brutal defense. Take it away John:

Defensively, Boozer is Chicago's worst frontcourt player, but the excellence of the other three made him look worse: Chicago gave up 8.6 points per 100 possessions more with him on the court. While he was 11th in rebound rate among power forwards, his help defense was pretty deficient, consisting large of screaming loudly that a pick was coming before pretending to stop the ball handler. He also has short arms and doesn't always sprint back, making him something of a magnet for criticism in the Windy City.

[Matt52]

http://www.82games.com/1112/11CHI12.HTM#onoff
http://www.82games.com/1213/12TOR15.HTM#onoff

Total Minutes-ON/OFF

Boozer-1948/1238
Bargnani-740/1709

Minutes per game

Boozer-31.1
Bargnani-30.8

How does a player averaging 30 minutes per game spend less time off the court than on it? 30% of a team's total minutes, including games when Andrea is hurt.

http://www.hoopdata.com/splits.aspx?...rea%20Bargnani
http://www.hoopdata.com/splits.aspx?...arlos%20Boozer

Don't have the time to do the math for net defensive rating for his last 4 games off the bench. So I will use plus/minus and a very small sample size, so take it for what its worth.

Boozer as starter- 31.1 minutes per game/ -1.0 plus minus per game/ -48 total
Bargnani as starter- 31.8 minutes/ -3.8 plus minus per game/ -81 total
Bargnani off the bench- 20.8 minutes per game/ +0.5 plus minus per game/ +2 total




http://www.blogabull.com/2012/9/21/3...ollinger-style

You are comparing Boozer 2011-12 with Bargnani 2012-13 in your links.

The takeaway is with Bargnani on the court the Raptors are down 77 points this season in just 740 minutes.

Any comparison of Boozer to Bargnani is an absolute joke. Boozer is a much better player. This is not a trade being doing by the basketball people in Chicago. This is a trade being done by the accountants and owner.

[tenforthewin]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,1519165.story

Apparently, we are not getting Boozer so this is the end of the Boozer to Toronto talk or could it be a smokescreen.

[bobbybutler]

http://www.82games.com/1213/12CHI12.HTM#onoff

Total Minutes-ON/OFF

Boozer-1449/970

link not links

Im not comparing them as starters. I'm comparing 30 minutes to 15. The lesser of two evils is Bargnani for 15 minutes.

Edit: Confused Boozer with someone else or confused gametime decisions with missed games. His hamstring forced him to miss games only this month. Not a nagging problem.

[TRX]

Boozer's on/off court numbers:

On: 1.03ppp for, 1.056ppp against (net -2.6 per 100)
Off: 1.085ppp for, .985ppp against (net +10 per 100)

Nothing about these numbers are good. They score better and defend better with Boozer off the court. They are also a net negative when he's on the court and a net positive when he's off. The only things they do better when Boozer is on the court are shoot the ball (on: 47efg%; off: 46.7efg%) and grab defensive rebounds (on: 70.2drr; off: 68.9drr).

That's just so bad all across the board.

[Matt52]

Boozer's on/off court numbers:

On: 1.03ppp for, 1.056ppp against (net -2.6 per 100)
Off: 1.085ppp for, .985ppp against (net +10 per 100)

Nothing about these numbers are good. They score better and defend better with Boozer off the court. They are also a net negative when he's on the court and a net positive when he's off. The only things they do better when Boozer is on the court are shoot the ball (on: 47efg%; off: 46.7efg%) and grab defensive rebounds (on: 70.2drr; off: 68.9drr).

That's just so bad all across the board.

and have you looked at bargnani's contributions?

boozer>bargnani.

also have you looked at the standings? per36 leading rebounder and scorer for 5th seed in east.

[TRX]

Irrelevant. Why would you trade for such a bad player by the numbers on such a bad contract? As bad as Bargnani is, there is literally no upside. Your contract situation gets significantly worse (more expensive AND longer contract) and you are only trading one negative contribution for another. Less negative, sure. But you shouldn't want either player.

[Matt52]

Irrelevant. Why would you trade for such a bad player by the numbers on such a bad contract? As bad as Bargnani is, there is literally no upside. Your contract situation gets significantly worse (more expensive AND longer contract) and you are only trading one negative contribution for another. Less negative, sure. But you shouldn't want either player.

Hardly irrelevant.

First off, Boozer is not a bad player. Bargnani is a bad player. Both guys are examples guys paid too much for what they produce.

Secondly, Boozer is on a bad contract but $1 for $1 he is better than Bargnani.

Thirdly, both players expire at the exact same time. Boozer is not a longer contract than Bargnani. Facts are important in the discussion. For the extra money you just got yourself a low post scoring threat and an extra 8.5 rebounds per 48 minutes plus a swing in win share of 4.6 wins.

Fourthly, Boozer has been winning more than losing for 8 years and in the playoffs for 7 straight years.

Fifthly, Boozer is not ideal but he is better than Bargnani - much better. You seem to think there is a market for Bargnani and that Toronto can afford to be selective in the offers for him.

Sixthly, less negative is an improvement and a significant talent upgrade to the Toronto bigs.

[planetmars]

There is no question that Boozer is a better talent than Bargnani.

The fact that the deal was kiboshed by Bryan I could see one of three possibilities:

1) Rogers/Bell seems hesitant to go further into luxury tax to get a little more talent.
2) Bryan still has a hard on for Bargnani and is expecting much better talent in return.
3) Bryan does not see Boozer as a fit either due to his character or his game.

I would hope its #3. If it's #2 then the board really needs to get rid of him at the end of this season. If it's #1 then it makes you wonder what type of talent Bell/Rogers would be okay with to go into luxury tax - or is it possible that they would not want to go into luxury tax at all? And if that's the case is the team doomed?

[enlightenment]

There is no question that Boozer is a better talent than Bargnani.

The fact that the deal was kiboshed by Bryan I could see one of three possibilities:

1) Rogers/Bell seems hesitant to go further into luxury tax to get a little more talent.
2) Bryan still has a hard on for Bargnani and is expecting much better talent in return.
3) Bryan does not see Boozer as a fit either due to his character or his game.

I would hope its #3. If it's #2 then the board really needs to get rid of him at the end of this season. If it's #1 then it makes you wonder what type of talent Bell/Rogers would be okay with to go into luxury tax - or is it possible that they would not want to go into luxury tax at all? And if that's the case is the team doomed?

4) there is a better deal on the horizon. *cough* http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=c8z2ywz *cough*

[Matt52]

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba...carlos-boozer/


Sources tell the Toronto Star that the Raptors have “no interest” in Carlos Boozer. The Raptors are on the hunt for a better, more cost-effective Andrea Bargnani deal: “There has been chatter about Bargnani-Boozer around here but I’m not sure if it’s just people catching up the first one or what. But my information remains as it was a week or so ago, there is no interest in taking on either Boozer or his more-costly contract.”

[ReubenJRD]

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba...carlos-boozer/


Sources tell the Toronto Star that the Raptors have “no interest” in Carlos Boozer. The Raptors are on the hunt for a better, more cost-effective Andrea Bargnani deal: “There has been chatter about Bargnani-Boozer around here but I’m not sure if it’s just people catching up the first one or what. But my information remains as it was a week or so ago, there is no interest in taking on either Boozer or his more-costly contract.”

With that said, I certainly think an Ilyasova or Hawes deal is better suited for what BC is trying to address. We still need ANY finance to better the team in the long term, and Boozer is only marginally better than Bargnani. Stats are definitely better, and an upgrade, but will only be able to provide this production for so long.

[enlightenment]

Knowing BC like I do, He is leaking out all the rumored players of who he is NOT going after. Watch for the possible trades which are NOT being mentioned.. Ridnour/Williams, Illyasova, etc....

[Matt52]

Knowing BC like I do, He is leaking out all the rumored players of who he is NOT going after. Watch for the possible trades which are NOT being mentioned.. Ridnour/Williams, Illyasova, etc....

Knowing BC like I do, he is leaking information of all the rumoured played who he IS going after because in the past he has NOT leaked players who he is going after.

lol

Actually I'm being an idiot here (yes, and elsewhere Hugmenot).

There was a lot of leaked information leading up to the Gay trade and it seemed to be coming from both ends.