Bargnani... For Ilyasova?

[vino]

He's better than him if he doesn't have to do too much with it. He's not quite as quick to the basket, and he's not big enough to play in the post as well as Bargs. They can't run plays for Ilyasova where he has the ball in his hands, and as it is now, they have that small backcourt issue. Bargs would make Ellis more expendable, and to get a scoring "downgrade" there as well more acceptable...maybe try to turn it into a 3-team deal with Indy. I don't think they really want to keep Granger. I think they could really use Ellis like a supersub, and it saves Indy a small amount of money. They can keep the lineup that's been working, and keep George at SF. This deal, for example, works....And Milwauke would have a slightly more conventional lineup, because they're clearly not going to be contenders as constructed. We could also throw in AA to the Bucks if they want extra SG insurance with Ellis gone.

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl3zt72

Nothing personal, but you've made few statements here that are just plain bsL.
1. Ekpe Udoh is actually a quality big that still has huge upside. He just has not been given the opportunity with limited minutes. As a matter of fact, I would trade #7 for him straight up!
2. "and he's not big enough to play in the post as well as Bargs." since when Bargs plays in the post?? Ersan actually plays well close to the basket on both ends of the floor.
3. Hypothesis about Indy - just leave it out unless you have any legit references.
4. Booing Bargs on his first game back - if I was in the crowd, I'd boo him! Damn right I would. The amount of suffering he has caused me over the years...

Just for the record, I would not do this trade... as much as I dislike #7

[white men can't jump]

Nothing personal, but you've made few statements here that are just plain bsL.
1. Ekpe Udoh is actually a quality big that still has huge upside. He just has not been given the opportunity with limited minutes. As a matter of fact, I would trade #7 for him straight up!
2. "and he's not big enough to play in the post as well as Bargs." since when Bargs plays in the post?? Ersan actually plays well close to the basket on both ends of the floor.
3. Hypothesis about Indy - just leave it out unless you have any legit references.
4. Booing Bargs on his first game back - if I was in the crowd, I'd boo him! Damn right I would. The amount of suffering he has caused me over the years...

Just for the record, I would not do this trade... as much as I dislike #7

1. Udho a quality big with upside? Yeah, those 4 pts and 3.5 rbs on 40% shooting are really promising. He has done little more to impress in Milwaukee than he did in GS. He's also making more than 3 million a year because of his rookie scale deal, and he's not even as good as Acy, I would say, though he is bigger, which makes him an ok backup or 3rd string C with Gray behind JV.

2. Bargs gets some touches almost every game in the post. He is big and uses his size, especially when he has a mismatch. This is something that started way back when Triano was here. Clearly you don't actually pay attention to Raps games when you watch them. Ersan does not have the size, or moves, to really finish a lot in the post...Bargs is a much better player in the paint (where he finishes at a higher %, 46% on 44 attempts to 24% on 34 attempts, according to nba.com's advanced player stats), and Ilyasova's %s and usage are focused under the basket and at the 3pt line because he's a complimentary scorer. This is because Bargs can actually create shots from different spots on teh court.

In fact, if you look at the breakdown by area on such pages, Bargs is as good or better in terms of %s from everywhere except the above the break 3, and all that with a usg % of about 25%, as compared to Ersan's 19%. Considering the Bucks want a better scorer, and especially that role of a 2nd or 3rd guy to go with Jennings, Bargs clearly has more ability to fill that role.

3. Hypothesis about Indy. It's a hypothesis, I don't need a source. Have you suggested that the Raps should try any trade? All I did was suggest that since I think it's pretty well known that Granger has been in the rumor mill since the summer, and that with Indy's lineup playing well, it's as good a time as any for them to trade him to address more important issues, like the fact that their backcourt is basically Stephenson, Hill and Augustin...Ellis would be a huge upgrade for them from that perspective. I don't see a problem with showing that such a 3team deal is at least technically possible, which is really all I was doing with the trade machine link.

4. Booing Bargs....that is classless. What would you be booing him for? YOu think that's going to help your team win? You think that's going to make him want to play better, which is good whether we keep or trade him? How has he caused you suffering? Has his inability to rebound affected your health, your virility, your friendships?
Boo Bargs if we're losing games and he's playing like crap. He came back and was actually playing well, for Bargs. That is classless, good sir, and I hope one day 20,000 people boo you just for showing up to work.

oh, some random stats from nba.com....
http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pla...01213;season=r
http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pla...01213;season=r

[Nilanka]

4. Booing Bargs....that is classless. What would you be booing him for? YOu think that's going to help your team win? You think that's going to make him want to play better, which is good whether we keep or trade him? How has he caused you suffering? Has his inability to rebound affected your health, your virility, your friendships?
Boo Bargs if we're losing games and he's playing like crap. He came back and was actually playing well, for Bargs. That is classless, good sir, and I hope one day 20,000 people boo you just for showing up to work.

Just to play devil's advocate, why is it OK to boo a player if he's playing badly? Like you mentioned, it doesn't help the team win, and doesn't make him want to play better.

[tucas]

Just to play devil's advocate, why is it OK to boo a player if he's playing badly? Like you mentioned, it doesn't help the team win, and doesn't make him want to play better.

I may have misinterpreted, but I saw it more as you should never boo a player on your own team, but if you're going to atleast have a reason to do it(ie. playing like shit)

[white men can't jump]

Just to play devil's advocate, why is it OK to boo a player if he's playing badly? Like you mentioned, it doesn't help the team win, and doesn't make him want to play better.

WEll, I assume if you're going to a game, you want to see the team win. It is more acceptable to boo a player, in my mind, if that guy is really bringing garbage, and it's ok to boo anyone on the team if the whole team is playing like that....This is still something I would probably only expect in the last minute or two of a bad game in that sense. In general, I think that there is no really good reason to boo and it's not something I do, but really, like I said, if you watch your team/player put up an awful game, especially if it's not the first in recent memory, I would fully expect some boos at the end of that game.
But for Bargs, it was just angry booing before he had even done anything. Really, like I said, he got booed basically for showing up tp work...Like, would those fans rather he had stayed injured and not had a solid game for us that night?

[Nilanka]

I may have misinterpreted, but I saw it more as you should never boo a player on your own team, but if you're going to atleast have a reason to do it(ie. playing like shit)

That's just it though....the fans who booed Bargnani DID have a reason. That is, the less-than-stellar play he's graced us with over the past 7 years.

I'm just curious as to why some people think it's justified to boo Bargnani if he lacks effort one night, but not if he lacks effort for his entire career.

[white men can't jump]

That's just it though....the fans who booed Bargnani DID have a reason. That is, the less-than-stellar play he's graced us with over the past 7 years.

I'm just curious as to why some people think it's justified to boo Bargnani if he lacks effort one night, but not if he lacks effort for his entire career.

Again, I point to the booing just for showing up to work. That night Bargs played well and helped his team. I'm not saying one night makes up for 7 years. But you're going to one game where he actually helped the team...how is it ok to boo someone for that?

[Nilanka]

Again, I point to the booing just for showing up to work. That night Bargs played well and helped his team. I'm not saying one night makes up for 7 years. But you're going to one game where he actually helped the team...how is it ok to boo someone for that?

But wouldn't you agree that the timeframe is completely subjective? You evaluate performances from one game to the next. Maybe the fans booing that night were evaluating his entire career to date. Who's to say one's right and one's wrong?

[TRX]

While reading the entire first page... I was amused to an absurd degree. I can't believe so many people would shoot down Bargnani for Ilyasova straight up so emphatically. A lot of reversals after the first page, but wow. Like Matt52 said, there is virtually literally nothing about Ilyasova that isn't better than Bargnani. Younger, better from range, gets paid less in the four years of his contract (minus team option year) than Bargnani gets paid in three, better shot selection, much better rebounder, etc. Ridiculous.

[white men can't jump]

But wouldn't you agree that the timeframe is completely subjective? You evaluate performances from one game to the next. Maybe the fans booing that night were evaluating his entire career to date. Who's to say one's right and one's wrong?

I think it's a mixture of a lack of logic, and just being way too negative....Booing Bargnani early in the game can't possibly do any good. And really does it erase the last 7 years? Such an attitude would make you think that the fans would rather him not play at all, which is probably a fair guess....but then, like I said earlier, would they rather he didn't and it cost us the game?

That's why it makes no sense to me to boo someone at the game for his past 7 years of performance. It would seem to imply that such fans desired a sort of negative experience at the game...that they would be happier booing Bargs to a loss as if it's some sort of vindication.....That they would rather see the team win wihtout him than with him, when really why should it matter if the team is winning?

All that said, you are right and it's subjective, but I just really don't understand the side of the argument for why you would do such a thing....if you hate that player and don't want to cheer for the team with him on it..don't go to the game

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Guys, there's an entire thread dedicated to the question of "to boo, or not to boo" with regards to Bargnani. Please keep this thread on topic - Ilyasova rumor.

[white men can't jump]

Well, I'm going to recap some reasons why I think getting Bargs could end up working for Milwaukee....

-He definitely mixes it up more as a scorer, and can carry a higher usg% because of that. Ilyasova, much like Amir and other role players, is partly so efficient from knowing when to limit himself. You can't put the ball in his hands and expect a lot to happen. Bargs is less efficient, but certainly more capable of being a 2nd or 3rd option(or probably 4th). They need someone who can hit shots in the post/paint and create those for himself. Bargs certainly has at least a few moves where he finishes in that low post area or heart of the paint. He's a worse 3pt shooter than Ilyasova, but if he's also going to score for them in other ways, I think they might take that. I also feel like part of Bargs' dropoff in that 3% is a mix of injuries, and utilization by Casey...I feel like he shoots a lot more 3s in bad situations (like in isolation) instead of open 3s in rhythm where he thrives, but I could be wrong, I don't have access to any advanced stats like that (would synergy have that???)

-Ilyasova can't play C defensively. Yes Bargs is soft on the boards, but we all see his size, and that as a one on one defender, he's actually probably our best all-around big guarding the ball. Once that ball is into the post(low or high), Bargs is often the best at either holding his ground, or backing off and making himself big so it's hard to drive by him. Is Amir a better overall team defender? Yes, of course. Hands down. It's not even close. And he's better usually at fighting off the ball. But for Milwaukee, they're grooming Sanders and Henson as help defenders. What they desperately lack, and I noticed this a bit on their forums, is a F/C who can score and defend both big positions. I saw a lot of Cousins, and names like Gasol, Jefferson...even before you might see names Raps fans are big on, like Smith and Millsap. Also, yes Ilyasova is a better rebounder, but stats-wise and with their roster, they might be ok losing 1-2 rebounds for Bargs' points if they think they'll make it up as Sanders and Henson develop, which is entirely possible.

-Finances....the initial reason I suggested Udoh, is that if they have Sanders, Henson and whoever they trade for, Udoh gets no real burn anyway. You figure they are going to want a vet, or just keep Gooden...Mbah a Moute plays as a 3/4 as well, so they're not small. THey could easily have 4-5 bigs discounting Udoh. Milwaukee is a smaller market. They struggle to attract big names/contracts...They may have to settle for someone like Bargs, and we can sweeten the deal by taking back Udoh, who doesn't figure to be in their long term plans, and eats up capspace + a roster spot next year. We can offer Udoh a legit chance at least as the 4th big if he can outplay Gray or Acy, and we can also absorb his money fairly easily and renounce his rights after next year if we want instead of giving him a qualifying offer. So the deal would not only save Milwaukee the extra year (and not much, less than a million) on Ilyasova, plus another 4.5 million on Udoh next year. That would save them some roster space, about 5-6 million dollars, and shorten their commitments.

-Also, ignoring any hypotheses since apparently that bugged someone, fans definitely want Ellis gone. Apart from the forums, below's a link to an article of which players their truehoop network site, Bucksketball, seems to suggest that Dalembert(expiring), Udrih(expiring), Ilyasova, Ellis(possibly opting out), and Jennings are most likely to be traded judging by other teams wanting them, in that order, which is associated to some question in a Chad Ford chat about which Bucks are available...(Chad Ford, take that as you like) You never know when a 3 team deal might help as it clearly made a difference in the Gay trade, and it seems there's at least a possibility they have some different pieces moving.

http://www.bucksketball.com/2013/02/...lwaukee-bucks/

[TRX]

-He definitely mixes it up more as a scorer, and can carry a higher usg% because of that. Ilyasova, much like Amir and other role players, is partly so efficient from knowing when to limit himself. You can't put the ball in his hands and expect a lot to happen. Bargs is less efficient, but certainly more capable of being a 2nd or 3rd option(or probably 4th). They need someone who can hit shots in the post/paint and create those for himself. Bargs certainly has at least a few moves where he finishes in that low post area or heart of the paint. He's a worse 3pt shooter than Ilyasova, but if he's also going to score for them in other ways, I think they might take that. I also feel like part of Bargs' dropoff in that 3% is a mix of injuries, and utilization by Casey...I feel like he shoots a lot more 3s in bad situations (like in isolation) instead of open 3s in rhythm where he thrives, but I could be wrong, I don't have access to any advanced stats like that (would synergy have that???)

Until this season, Bargnani has always been assisted on 60%+ of his makes at the rim. Also, 60+% of his shots come from 16 feet and out. Ilyasova consistently has a usg% of 20; he takes a fifth of the shots when he's on the floor. He may not be ball dominant like Bargnani, but he's no corner three specialist.

-Ilyasova can't play C defensively. Yes Bargs is soft on the boards, but we all see his size, and that as a one on one defender, he's actually probably our best all-around big guarding the ball. Once that ball is into the post(low or high), Bargs is often the best at either holding his ground, or backing off and making himself big so it's hard to drive by him. Is Amir a better overall team defender? Yes, of course. Hands down. It's not even close. And he's better usually at fighting off the ball. But for Milwaukee, they're grooming Sanders and Henson as help defenders. What they desperately lack, and I noticed this a bit on their forums, is a F/C who can score and defend both big positions. I saw a lot of Cousins, and names like Gasol, Jefferson...even before you might see names Raps fans are big on, like Smith and Millsap. Also, yes Ilyasova is a better rebounder, but stats-wise and with their roster, they might be ok losing 1-2 rebounds for Bargs' points if they think they'll make it up as Sanders and Henson develop, which is entirely possible.

Bargnani has only had a double digit rebounding rate THREE TIMES IN SEVEN SEASONS. To put in perspective the difference between the two in terms of rebounding, Bargnani's DEFENSIVE rebounding rate has only been higher than Ilyasova's TOTAL rebounding rate in the same season... again... THREE TIMES IN SEVEN SEASONS. In a down year for Ilyasova, he's still bringing in more rebounds a game than Bargnani has ever averaged in a season.

Also, why would Ilyasova get penalized for not being able to guard the post when he's a 4? I would also certainly not call Bargnani a better defender than any big in the league except when he doesn't have to move. Down in the post? Sure. In the high post? No thanks. Bit of an exaggeration, obviously, but the point still stands. I get that you're trying to rationalize it from Milwaukee's point of view, but yeah.

[vino]

1. Udho a quality big with upside? Yeah, those 4 pts and 3.5 rbs on 40% shooting are really promising. He has done little more to impress in Milwaukee than he did in GS. He's also making more than 3 million a year because of his rookie scale deal, and he's not even as good as Acy, I would say, though he is bigger, which makes him an ok backup or 3rd string C with Gray behind JV.

2. Bargs gets some touches almost every game in the post. He is big and uses his size, especially when he has a mismatch. This is something that started way back when Triano was here. Clearly you don't actually pay attention to Raps games when you watch them. Ersan does not have the size, or moves, to really finish a lot in the post...Bargs is a much better player in the paint (where he finishes at a higher %, 46% on 44 attempts to 24% on 34 attempts, according to nba.com's advanced player stats), and Ilyasova's %s and usage are focused under the basket and at the 3pt line because he's a complimentary scorer. This is because Bargs can actually create shots from different spots on teh court.

In fact, if you look at the breakdown by area on such pages, Bargs is as good or better in terms of %s from everywhere except the above the break 3, and all that with a usg % of about 25%, as compared to Ersan's 19%. Considering the Bucks want a better scorer, and especially that role of a 2nd or 3rd guy to go with Jennings, Bargs clearly has more ability to fill that role.

3. Hypothesis about Indy. It's a hypothesis, I don't need a source. Have you suggested that the Raps should try any trade? All I did was suggest that since I think it's pretty well known that Granger has been in the rumor mill since the summer, and that with Indy's lineup playing well, it's as good a time as any for them to trade him to address more important issues, like the fact that their backcourt is basically Stephenson, Hill and Augustin...Ellis would be a huge upgrade for them from that perspective. I don't see a problem with showing that such a 3team deal is at least technically possible, which is really all I was doing with the trade machine link.

4. Booing Bargs....that is classless. What would you be booing him for? YOu think that's going to help your team win? You think that's going to make him want to play better, which is good whether we keep or trade him? How has he caused you suffering? Has his inability to rebound affected your health, your virility, your friendships?
Boo Bargs if we're losing games and he's playing like crap. He came back and was actually playing well, for Bargs. That is classless, good sir, and I hope one day 20,000 people boo you just for showing up to work.

oh, some random stats from nba.com....
http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pla...01213;season=r
http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pla...01213;season=r

ok, lets entertain this discussion:

1. Here are some Udoh stats for you:
a. 1.15 blocks per game in 18.3 min - there is only one player in the league who averages more in less minutes, his teammate Delembert
b. Shoots career best 80% FT this season

With a 7'4.5'' wing span he's another Ibaka in making. Could be the first big off the bench on any team until he develops into a solid defensive PF.

2. Bargs does not play inside. He is afraid of any contact and prefers to patrol the 3pt line. Ersan actually bangs in the post, hence his higher rebound %. I am just going to ignore your comment about "not paying attention"

3. There are tons of potential trades rumors/sites and what makes sense to which team articles; I suggested to keep this relevant to the thread topic.

4. Booing Bargs before he'd enter his first game back - has nothing to do with the team. Of course I want it to win and of course I want to get max value of the inevitable trade. He has caused me hours of pain watching his lack of effort and pathetic fake shot then one dribble pull up.

[Matt52]

I hope any thoughts of bargnani being a new man off the bench are put to rest

#tradeBargnani

he is who he is

[Balls of Steel]

All I have to say is that Ilyasova is a beast baller. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to watch reruns of Rautins on Roundball. Hammond will not do this deal until we take on someone like Dalembert which is fine by me personally. We're giving up Bargnani here. Andrea. Seriously.

[Nilanka]

I hope any thoughts of bargnani being a new man off the bench are put to rest

#tradeBargnani

he is who he is

It just boggles my mind that people STILL think that with a slight tweak here, or a minor change there, Bargnani is capable of being anything more than an inconsistent, lazy, 1-dimensional, chucker.

"We can't trade him yet....we have to see how the roster changes next summer first!"

"We can't trade him yet....we have to see how Bargnani responds to Colangelo being fired first!"

"We can't trade him yet....we have to see if Bargnani responds to his new BlackBerry 10 first!"

The same Bargnani emerges every time, yet some fans still haven't learned their lessons. What's that definition of insanity again?

[white men can't jump]

Until this season, Bargnani has always been assisted on 60%+ of his makes at the rim. Also, 60+% of his shots come from 16 feet and out. Ilyasova consistently has a usg% of 20; he takes a fifth of the shots when he's on the floor. He may not be ball dominant like Bargnani, but he's no corner three specialist.

Bargnani has only had a double digit rebounding rate THREE TIMES IN SEVEN SEASONS. To put in perspective the difference between the two in terms of rebounding, Bargnani's DEFENSIVE rebounding rate has only been higher than Ilyasova's TOTAL rebounding rate in the same season... again... THREE TIMES IN SEVEN SEASONS. In a down year for Ilyasova, he's still bringing in more rebounds a game than Bargnani has ever averaged in a season.

Also, why would Ilyasova get penalized for not being able to guard the post when he's a 4? I would also certainly not call Bargnani a better defender than any big in the league except when he doesn't have to move. Down in the post? Sure. In the high post? No thanks. Bit of an exaggeration, obviously, but the point still stands. I get that you're trying to rationalize it from Milwaukee's point of view, but yeah.

I wasn't talking about at the rim. The post is a different area. Bargs takes little jumpers over defenders. He has a running hook....and a difference from 20 to 25% in usg is pretty high. It's the difference between a guy who mostly scores off the ball and a guy who's capable of doing so with it more in his hands. Ersan's is not that far off guys like Udrih and Henson on his team....Bargs is only below Gay on our team.Also, you diss bargs shot selection and need for assists, but you didn't bring up the same numbers for Ersan. How much does he depend on assists? As for distance, I don't have breakdown by every few feet, but over 60% of Ersan's shots are from the midrange and out, and he shoots a lot less in the (non-restricted) painted area. So far here, I see no reason to suggest Ersan is better as a high usg% player.

Also, I still don't understand why people hate on Bargs so much for his D. I said his rebounding is worse. I gave Ersan that. Still, with skinny young guys like Sanders and Henson, they want a guy who can guard both big positions. Ersan doesn't do that for them. Bargs is a pretty good defensive player on the ball. Is he going to stop the guy's move every time? No, but who wuold??? If they are tired of giving up size at both positions up front, Bargs would make sense from that perpsective..

Again, it's not like I've suggested Bargs is some all-star Milwaukee should go after...In fact, part of my logic was what are the chances that Milwaukee would acquire a quality all-star? Maybe if so many of them (Jefferson, Smith, Millsap, Gasol) weren't expiring or injured. But a team like the Bucks definitely can't give up assets for a rental or a player who might be damaged goods.

[white men can't jump]

ok, lets entertain this discussion:

1. Here are some Udoh stats for you:
a. 1.15 blocks per game in 18.3 min - there is only one player in the league who averages more in less minutes, his teammate Delembert
b. Shoots career best 80% FT this season

With a 7'4.5'' wing span he's another Ibaka in making. Could be the first big off the bench on any team until he develops into a solid defensive PF.

2. Bargs does not play inside. He is afraid of any contact and prefers to patrol the 3pt line. Ersan actually bangs in the post, hence his higher rebound %. I am just going to ignore your comment about "not paying attention"

3. There are tons of potential trades rumors/sites and what makes sense to which team articles; I suggested to keep this relevant to the thread topic.

4. Booing Bargs before he'd enter his first game back - has nothing to do with the team. Of course I want it to win and of course I want to get max value of the inevitable trade. He has caused me hours of pain watching his lack of effort and pathetic fake shot then one dribble pull up.

All I'm going to ask, is why are you so high on Udoh? Again on some Bucks forums, I got the impression they're not really in love with him. They are very high on Sanders and Henson, because those 2 are prime athletes and good defenders, and don't bring a 40% FG%...who cares about his ft %, he'll have the opposite of hack-a-shaq...just let Udoh shoot and he'll be missing layups. Yes he's an ok shot blocker, but I think the issue is, he doesn't give you enough of other things on the floor to make that worthwhile, and he doesn't even have freak size/athleticism like Dalembert or Ibaka, or many others...

*oh, and Udoh, born in 1987, turns 26 this year....not exactly young in terms of expecting him to develop any more

[vino]

All I'm going to ask, is why are you so high on Udoh? Again on some Bucks forums, I got the impression they're not really in love with him. They are very high on Sanders and Henson, because those 2 are prime athletes and good defenders, and don't bring a 40% FG%...who cares about his ft %, he'll have the opposite of hack-a-shaq...just let Udoh shoot and he'll be missing layups. Yes he's an ok shot blocker, but I think the issue is, he doesn't give you enough of other things on the floor to make that worthwhile, and he doesn't even have freak size/athleticism like Dalembert or Ibaka, or many others...

*oh, and Udoh, born in 1987, turns 26 this year....not exactly young in terms of expecting him to develop any more

Let's be straight here, I am seeing a potential here. We do not talk about the current stats. I am only basing my evaluation on what I see... here it is:

1. above 80% FT shooting tells me he's more than capable developing a mid range jump shot, similar to the one Ibaka has developed in his last 12 months. Just look at Jonas - the guy is an above average FT shooter, I'd even say an excellent shooter for 7 footer, but he still struggles in game 15-17 ft shot even if left alone. For now. I have no doubt he could and will develop this shot.
2. Udoh is not an "ok" shot blocker - he's an elite shot blocker, that's why he was picked 6th overall!
3. Udoh is a freak by your definition - here is his comparison to Ibaka:
Ibaka - 6'10'', 235lbs, 7'4'' wingspan
Udoh - 6'10'', 245lbs, 7'4.5'' wingspan

Again, I am not advocating Udoh is a superstar. All I am saying he has got potential to become an elite defensive PF in a right environment (Casey system?!); very similar to Ibaka in OKC. As for his age, he's still young in NBA -its only his third season with a second team. He has never been given a chance to play yet. These type of players are worth trading for as fillers. In our case, like I said, I'd do #7 for him straight up. Why did I bring this up, cause you have originally said he's shit and not worth anything. As for going to Bucks forums; I won't there are enough knuckleheads here... oh, and by the way, I like Milwaukee talent a lot. If they let this team develop, we will be fighting with them for 5-8 spot for years to come.