View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    8 6.50%
  • B

    47 38.21%
  • C

    29 23.58%
  • D

    18 14.63%
  • F

    21 17.07%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #8501
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    1. Udho a quality big with upside? Yeah, those 4 pts and 3.5 rbs on 40% shooting are really promising. He has done little more to impress in Milwaukee than he did in GS. He's also making more than 3 million a year because of his rookie scale deal, and he's not even as good as Acy, I would say, though he is bigger, which makes him an ok backup or 3rd string C with Gray behind JV.

    2. Bargs gets some touches almost every game in the post. He is big and uses his size, especially when he has a mismatch. This is something that started way back when Triano was here. Clearly you don't actually pay attention to Raps games when you watch them. Ersan does not have the size, or moves, to really finish a lot in the post...Bargs is a much better player in the paint (where he finishes at a higher %, 46% on 44 attempts to 24% on 34 attempts, according to nba.com's advanced player stats), and Ilyasova's %s and usage are focused under the basket and at the 3pt line because he's a complimentary scorer. This is because Bargs can actually create shots from different spots on teh court.

    In fact, if you look at the breakdown by area on such pages, Bargs is as good or better in terms of %s from everywhere except the above the break 3, and all that with a usg % of about 25%, as compared to Ersan's 19%. Considering the Bucks want a better scorer, and especially that role of a 2nd or 3rd guy to go with Jennings, Bargs clearly has more ability to fill that role.

    3. Hypothesis about Indy. It's a hypothesis, I don't need a source. Have you suggested that the Raps should try any trade? All I did was suggest that since I think it's pretty well known that Granger has been in the rumor mill since the summer, and that with Indy's lineup playing well, it's as good a time as any for them to trade him to address more important issues, like the fact that their backcourt is basically Stephenson, Hill and Augustin...Ellis would be a huge upgrade for them from that perspective. I don't see a problem with showing that such a 3team deal is at least technically possible, which is really all I was doing with the trade machine link.

    4. Booing Bargs....that is classless. What would you be booing him for? YOu think that's going to help your team win? You think that's going to make him want to play better, which is good whether we keep or trade him? How has he caused you suffering? Has his inability to rebound affected your health, your virility, your friendships?
    Boo Bargs if we're losing games and he's playing like crap. He came back and was actually playing well, for Bargs. That is classless, good sir, and I hope one day 20,000 people boo you just for showing up to work.

    oh, some random stats from nba.com....
    http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pla...01213;season=r
    http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/pla...01213;season=r

    ok, lets entertain this discussion:

    1. Here are some Udoh stats for you:
    a. 1.15 blocks per game in 18.3 min - there is only one player in the league who averages more in less minutes, his teammate Delembert
    b. Shoots career best 80% FT this season

    With a 7'4.5'' wing span he's another Ibaka in making. Could be the first big off the bench on any team until he develops into a solid defensive PF.

    2. Bargs does not play inside. He is afraid of any contact and prefers to patrol the 3pt line. Ersan actually bangs in the post, hence his higher rebound %. I am just going to ignore your comment about "not paying attention"

    3. There are tons of potential trades rumors/sites and what makes sense to which team articles; I suggested to keep this relevant to the thread topic.

    4. Booing Bargs before he'd enter his first game back - has nothing to do with the team. Of course I want it to win and of course I want to get max value of the inevitable trade. He has caused me hours of pain watching his lack of effort and pathetic fake shot then one dribble pull up.

  2. #8502
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    I hope any thoughts of bargnani being a new man off the bench are put to rest

    #tradeBargnani

    he is who he is
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  3. #8503
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    All I have to say is that Ilyasova is a beast baller. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to watch reruns of Rautins on Roundball. Hammond will not do this deal until we take on someone like Dalembert which is fine by me personally. We're giving up Bargnani here. Andrea. Seriously.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  4. #8504
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Noooooooooooooooooooo.
    This is reality and tonight's performance against Denver was proof of that. It's one thing to have porous defence, after all Amir and Jonas were just as culpable. But a rebound in 18 minutes is simply the ol' 50 Shades of Bargnani. We're stuck with this clown. Oh, and here we are talking about Colangelo's option. Wow!
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  5. #8505
    Raptors Republic All-Star Hotshot's Avatar
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    People boo the players or the team because they don't get to boo the Managment for the product on the floor. By doing so it sends the message that they are unhappy with the product. It is misguided and uproductive but people are paying money to be entertained and if they aren't entertained well they got to let off some steam.

  6. #8506
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    Gah. As long as he isn't hurting the tea-

    Damn, well, thank Rudy Gay.

  7. #8507
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    Well, after a performance like tonight, and basically no effort on either end, take back the question.

  8. #8508
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Noooooooooooooooooooo.
    Don't worry...the team is totally different now with Gay in town, and Bargnani is going to be a spark off the bench.

    All we need to do is keeping changing every single team variable to make sure Bargnani has a chance to shine. One day, it's going to work for at least 13 games, I guarantee it!
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  9. #8509
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I hope any thoughts of bargnani being a new man off the bench are put to rest

    #tradeBargnani

    he is who he is
    It just boggles my mind that people STILL think that with a slight tweak here, or a minor change there, Bargnani is capable of being anything more than an inconsistent, lazy, 1-dimensional, chucker.

    "We can't trade him yet....we have to see how the roster changes next summer first!"

    "We can't trade him yet....we have to see how Bargnani responds to Colangelo being fired first!"

    "We can't trade him yet....we have to see if Bargnani responds to his new BlackBerry 10 first!"

    The same Bargnani emerges every time, yet some fans still haven't learned their lessons. What's that definition of insanity again?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  10. #8510
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote TRX wrote: View Post
    Until this season, Bargnani has always been assisted on 60%+ of his makes at the rim. Also, 60+% of his shots come from 16 feet and out. Ilyasova consistently has a usg% of 20; he takes a fifth of the shots when he's on the floor. He may not be ball dominant like Bargnani, but he's no corner three specialist.

    Bargnani has only had a double digit rebounding rate THREE TIMES IN SEVEN SEASONS. To put in perspective the difference between the two in terms of rebounding, Bargnani's DEFENSIVE rebounding rate has only been higher than Ilyasova's TOTAL rebounding rate in the same season... again... THREE TIMES IN SEVEN SEASONS. In a down year for Ilyasova, he's still bringing in more rebounds a game than Bargnani has ever averaged in a season.

    Also, why would Ilyasova get penalized for not being able to guard the post when he's a 4? I would also certainly not call Bargnani a better defender than any big in the league except when he doesn't have to move. Down in the post? Sure. In the high post? No thanks. Bit of an exaggeration, obviously, but the point still stands. I get that you're trying to rationalize it from Milwaukee's point of view, but yeah.
    I wasn't talking about at the rim. The post is a different area. Bargs takes little jumpers over defenders. He has a running hook....and a difference from 20 to 25% in usg is pretty high. It's the difference between a guy who mostly scores off the ball and a guy who's capable of doing so with it more in his hands. Ersan's is not that far off guys like Udrih and Henson on his team....Bargs is only below Gay on our team.Also, you diss bargs shot selection and need for assists, but you didn't bring up the same numbers for Ersan. How much does he depend on assists? As for distance, I don't have breakdown by every few feet, but over 60% of Ersan's shots are from the midrange and out, and he shoots a lot less in the (non-restricted) painted area. So far here, I see no reason to suggest Ersan is better as a high usg% player.

    Also, I still don't understand why people hate on Bargs so much for his D. I said his rebounding is worse. I gave Ersan that. Still, with skinny young guys like Sanders and Henson, they want a guy who can guard both big positions. Ersan doesn't do that for them. Bargs is a pretty good defensive player on the ball. Is he going to stop the guy's move every time? No, but who wuold??? If they are tired of giving up size at both positions up front, Bargs would make sense from that perpsective..

    Again, it's not like I've suggested Bargs is some all-star Milwaukee should go after...In fact, part of my logic was what are the chances that Milwaukee would acquire a quality all-star? Maybe if so many of them (Jefferson, Smith, Millsap, Gasol) weren't expiring or injured. But a team like the Bucks definitely can't give up assets for a rental or a player who might be damaged goods.

  11. #8511
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote vino wrote: View Post
    ok, lets entertain this discussion:

    1. Here are some Udoh stats for you:
    a. 1.15 blocks per game in 18.3 min - there is only one player in the league who averages more in less minutes, his teammate Delembert
    b. Shoots career best 80% FT this season

    With a 7'4.5'' wing span he's another Ibaka in making. Could be the first big off the bench on any team until he develops into a solid defensive PF.

    2. Bargs does not play inside. He is afraid of any contact and prefers to patrol the 3pt line. Ersan actually bangs in the post, hence his higher rebound %. I am just going to ignore your comment about "not paying attention"

    3. There are tons of potential trades rumors/sites and what makes sense to which team articles; I suggested to keep this relevant to the thread topic.

    4. Booing Bargs before he'd enter his first game back - has nothing to do with the team. Of course I want it to win and of course I want to get max value of the inevitable trade. He has caused me hours of pain watching his lack of effort and pathetic fake shot then one dribble pull up.
    All I'm going to ask, is why are you so high on Udoh? Again on some Bucks forums, I got the impression they're not really in love with him. They are very high on Sanders and Henson, because those 2 are prime athletes and good defenders, and don't bring a 40% FG%...who cares about his ft %, he'll have the opposite of hack-a-shaq...just let Udoh shoot and he'll be missing layups. Yes he's an ok shot blocker, but I think the issue is, he doesn't give you enough of other things on the floor to make that worthwhile, and he doesn't even have freak size/athleticism like Dalembert or Ibaka, or many others...

    *oh, and Udoh, born in 1987, turns 26 this year....not exactly young in terms of expecting him to develop any more
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Feb 13th, 2013 at 10:03 AM.

  12. #8512
    Raptors Republic Starter omgsomuchpotential's Avatar
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    Bargs needs to be hypnotized to think he's KG.

  13. #8513
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    All I'm going to ask, is why are you so high on Udoh? Again on some Bucks forums, I got the impression they're not really in love with him. They are very high on Sanders and Henson, because those 2 are prime athletes and good defenders, and don't bring a 40% FG%...who cares about his ft %, he'll have the opposite of hack-a-shaq...just let Udoh shoot and he'll be missing layups. Yes he's an ok shot blocker, but I think the issue is, he doesn't give you enough of other things on the floor to make that worthwhile, and he doesn't even have freak size/athleticism like Dalembert or Ibaka, or many others...

    *oh, and Udoh, born in 1987, turns 26 this year....not exactly young in terms of expecting him to develop any more
    Let's be straight here, I am seeing a potential here. We do not talk about the current stats. I am only basing my evaluation on what I see... here it is:

    1. above 80% FT shooting tells me he's more than capable developing a mid range jump shot, similar to the one Ibaka has developed in his last 12 months. Just look at Jonas - the guy is an above average FT shooter, I'd even say an excellent shooter for 7 footer, but he still struggles in game 15-17 ft shot even if left alone. For now. I have no doubt he could and will develop this shot.
    2. Udoh is not an "ok" shot blocker - he's an elite shot blocker, that's why he was picked 6th overall!
    3. Udoh is a freak by your definition - here is his comparison to Ibaka:
    Ibaka - 6'10'', 235lbs, 7'4'' wingspan
    Udoh - 6'10'', 245lbs, 7'4.5'' wingspan

    Again, I am not advocating Udoh is a superstar. All I am saying he has got potential to become an elite defensive PF in a right environment (Casey system?!); very similar to Ibaka in OKC. As for his age, he's still young in NBA -its only his third season with a second team. He has never been given a chance to play yet. These type of players are worth trading for as fillers. In our case, like I said, I'd do #7 for him straight up. Why did I bring this up, cause you have originally said he's shit and not worth anything. As for going to Bucks forums; I won't there are enough knuckleheads here... oh, and by the way, I like Milwaukee talent a lot. If they let this team develop, we will be fighting with them for 5-8 spot for years to come.

  14. #8514
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote vino wrote: View Post
    Let's be straight here, I am seeing a potential here. We do not talk about the current stats. I am only basing my evaluation on what I see... here it is:

    1. above 80% FT shooting tells me he's more than capable developing a mid range jump shot, similar to the one Ibaka has developed in his last 12 months. Just look at Jonas - the guy is an above average FT shooter, I'd even say an excellent shooter for 7 footer, but he still struggles in game 15-17 ft shot even if left alone. For now. I have no doubt he could and will develop this shot.
    2. Udoh is not an "ok" shot blocker - he's an elite shot blocker, that's why he was picked 6th overall!
    3. Udoh is a freak by your definition - here is his comparison to Ibaka:
    Ibaka - 6'10'', 235lbs, 7'4'' wingspan
    Udoh - 6'10'', 245lbs, 7'4.5'' wingspan

    Again, I am not advocating Udoh is a superstar. All I am saying he has got potential to become an elite defensive PF in a right environment (Casey system?!); very similar to Ibaka in OKC. As for his age, he's still young in NBA -its only his third season with a second team. He has never been given a chance to play yet. These type of players are worth trading for as fillers. In our case, like I said, I'd do #7 for him straight up. Why did I bring this up, cause you have originally said he's shit and not worth anything. As for going to Bucks forums; I won't there are enough knuckleheads here... oh, and by the way, I like Milwaukee talent a lot. If they let this team develop, we will be fighting with them for 5-8 spot for years to come.
    I think my issue with Udoh, is he was drafted so high partly because they thought they were getting more than just potential. He was an old rookie, by current standards. The fact that he's 26, and has not really improved his game since coming in is quite alarming. The only thing that seems to have improved is ft shooting. He may be long too, but he's not the explosive defender that Ibaka is...size is not that useful if you can't move your body to the right places fast enough. 26 is not young, even if he's only had a couple years in the pros. Most old draftees are picked hoping they can contribute right away. His contributions have hardly been significant.

    In my mind, Udoh will never be anything more than a 4th or 5th big...in the absolute best case. And he's going to be making 4.5 million dollars next year...that's a lot of money to pay someone who's not likely to be in your 8-9 man rotation every night.

    *also, my main point originally was that he is a guy they might be looking to move to clear cap or roster space. Again, you can get a cheaper depth big. They might also want some added flexibility with their roster. Whether it's trading for Bargs or a much better player, I do believe any team could have to take back extra players and money....and I pray that this would be a younger person like Udoh who could expire next year, than an old fart like Gooden who has a lot of money and years left.

    **Basically, I agree with you Udoh has some potential, but it's not much higher than the level he's playing at. I see no reason the Bucks would make keeping him a dealbreaker if they had the chance to make a trade they like (again, even if it's not for Bargs, just focusing on Udoh). But for a team like TO, or any team hoping to improve going into next year, Udoh is a much better gamble than Gooden, for example. I don't think any team willing to take Ilyasova's deal will want to take such an amount/length either. To me, this leaves Udoh as a likely option for them to dump because a)he doesn't seem to matter for their long term plans, and b) he's throw in other teams might want because of even limited potential and no long-term commitment....which is clearly why Milwaukee wanted him tossed into the Bogut-Ellis trade.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Feb 13th, 2013 at 11:15 AM.

  15. #8515
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    I'm scared that Colangelo might trade AB for players that we don't need like Ilyasova or old players with brutal contracts like Boozer and Gasol.
    I disagree. If they are talented then get them here and work them into the system. This season has shown that, despite how they would fit, acquiring talent has put the team in a positive direction. Rudy didn't look like a fit for the team when we traded for him (another athletic wing to clash with DeMar) but he's been worked in and he's delivering.
    Writer for RaptorsWatch.com

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  16. #8516
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    @white men can't jump:

    I would agree with you the difference in usage is fairly significant, but I want to point out a few things here.

    1. My pointing out Ilyasova's usg% of 20% was to say he isn't ball dominant, but he's not an afterthought on the offensive end. Not to mention he's playing with Jennings and Ellis - so even though he's also playing most of his minutes with Mbah a Moute and Sanders, he's taking his fair share of shots, literally. He's not sitting in the corner waiting for wide open threes.

    2. Ersan may not be better as a high usage player, but:

    a) he's not complaining about being a role player, contributing from range (second best 3pt% for forwards playing 25mpg+ this season, in an off year) and by grabbing an above average number of orebs (not as much this year as he was last year, when he was fourth among forwards). He's also taking two-thirds the number of shots Bargnani is taking and taking almost as many from 10 feet and in.

    b) Rudy Gay, in his (really short) Raptors tenure has a usg% (29.65%) slightly higher than Bargnani had last year (28.78%) and the year before (28.09%); the Raptors have essentially replaced the high-volume shot taker on this team.

    3. Guess what Bargnani is doing with his extra usage. From his first four years ~(22usg%) to the two seasons before this one (~28usg%), his shots at the rim didn't increase and neither did his 3pta. Most of the increase came from 10-23 feet which is by far the most inefficient range on the court. To his credit, he was shooting it at slightly better than league average rates, but they're still the most inefficient locations. The point is... Bargnani and Ilyasova aren't as different as you might think.


    Regarding rebounding though, the thing about Bargnani's rebounding though isn't so much that he's historically bad (which he is, with literally the worst total rebounding rate among significant players at his position for the last four years). Sometimes a player grabs less rebounds, but the team does better because he boxes out and gives other guys an awesome chance to grab it instead. In no year that Bargnani's been with the Raptors have they been a better rebounding team with him on the court than off it. The team is always grabbing 2%+ more of total rebounds available when he's off the court than when he's on it.

    What I did notice though is that Ilyasova is right around a net neutral presence over the last three seasons and actually a net -1.9% this season. Even last year in his monster season, the team did better on the offensive boards, but that was offset by the team doing worse on the defensive boards. Looking at it a little closer, nobody was really a net positive with the Bucks on the boards last season and Jennings was a net -2.7% and featured in 19 of Milwaukee's 20 most common lineups, so I think it remains inconclusive right now.
    Last edited by TRX; Wed Feb 13th, 2013 at 07:23 PM.

  17. #8517
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Trade idea fueled by rumours du jour:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=bc9t9mv

    Dallas: Jennings, Gooden
    Milwaukee: Bargnani, Collison, Wright, Crowder, Right to swap 1st rd picks w/ Dallas, LAL 2nd rd pick from Dallas, 2014 2nd rd pick TOR or SAC
    Toronto: Ilyasova, Udoh, Dahntay Jones


    Why?


    Dallas: gets PG for future and Bank of Cuban writes off Gooden as cost of doing business.

    Milwaukee: Saves guaranteed $20M, $28.5M if Ilyasova's option is eventually picked up, and likely $65-$73.5M once Jennings' extension is signed. They can get off the mediocrity treadmill and start a proper rebuild (attendance is already horrible and fans want change). Sanders, Mbah a Moute, and Henson are as good as any lineup to try and fit Bargnani in. Also, Bargnani's final year is a player option: maybe he hates Milwaukee so much he does not exercise it and makes next season a "contract year". This would save Milwaukee another $11M making previous numbers $31M, $39.5M, and $76-$84.5M. Milwaukee also gets a "local" kid back in Crowder who is on a cheap contract for the next 3 seasons.

    Toronto: #tradeBargnani - mission accomplished. Ilyasova much better than #tradeBargnani in play, contract, and age.


    Make no mistake this is not a basketball deal for Milwaukee except that they would be throwing in the towel to rebuild.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #8518
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Trade idea fueled by rumours du jour:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=bc9t9mv

    Dallas: Jennings, Gooden
    Milwaukee: Bargnani, Collison, Wright, Crowder, Right to swap 1st rd picks w/ Dallas, LAL 2nd rd pick from Dallas, 2014 2nd rd pick TOR or SAC
    Toronto: Ilyasova, Udoh, Dahntay Jones


    Why?


    Dallas: gets PG for future and Bank of Cuban writes off Gooden as cost of doing business.

    Milwaukee: Saves guaranteed $20M, $28.5M if Ilyasova's option is eventually picked up, and likely $65-$73.5M once Jennings' extension is signed. They can get off the mediocrity treadmill and start a proper rebuild (attendance is already horrible and fans want change). Sanders, Mbah a Moute, and Henson are as good as any lineup to try and fit Bargnani in. Also, Bargnani's final year is a player option: maybe he hates Milwaukee so much he does not exercise it and makes next season a "contract year". This would save Milwaukee another $11M making previous numbers $31M, $39.5M, and $76-$84.5M. Milwaukee also gets a "local" kid back in Crowder who is on a cheap contract for the next 3 seasons.

    Toronto: #tradeBargnani - mission accomplished. Ilyasova much better than #tradeBargnani in play, contract, and age.


    Make no mistake this is not a basketball deal for Milwaukee except that they would be throwing in the towel to rebuild.
    Need to find a way to get this thing done...Somehow I've managed to get a lot of backlash about this whole Milwaukee might actually have value for Bargnani...

    This is part of the reason people. THey have been mediocre since they drafted Jennings (not a knock on him), he wants money, and as a small market team they're not in a position to commit to that iwth the level of succes they've had (I hope). Why keep a role player like Ilyasova around on a team that will tank for a year or two??? On the other hand, can you think of a better player to feature in your team if you want to tank for a year or two than Bargnani??? And as a bonus, he helps gives you flexibility, and is a stretch 4 you need to have next to Sanders/Henson....It's crazy, but it just might all work...

  19. #8519
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    Quote omgsomuchpotential wrote: View Post
    Bargs needs to be hypnotized to think he's KG.
    He needs to be amnestied.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  20. #8520
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote omgsomuchpotential wrote: View Post
    Bargs needs to be hypnotized to think he's KG.
    It wouldn't hurt. Kim Gretzky would likely bring more fire and desire.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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