Bargnani... For Ilyasova?

[white men can't jump]

Let's be straight here, I am seeing a potential here. We do not talk about the current stats. I am only basing my evaluation on what I see... here it is:

1. above 80% FT shooting tells me he's more than capable developing a mid range jump shot, similar to the one Ibaka has developed in his last 12 months. Just look at Jonas - the guy is an above average FT shooter, I'd even say an excellent shooter for 7 footer, but he still struggles in game 15-17 ft shot even if left alone. For now. I have no doubt he could and will develop this shot.
2. Udoh is not an "ok" shot blocker - he's an elite shot blocker, that's why he was picked 6th overall!
3. Udoh is a freak by your definition - here is his comparison to Ibaka:
Ibaka - 6'10'', 235lbs, 7'4'' wingspan
Udoh - 6'10'', 245lbs, 7'4.5'' wingspan

Again, I am not advocating Udoh is a superstar. All I am saying he has got potential to become an elite defensive PF in a right environment (Casey system?!); very similar to Ibaka in OKC. As for his age, he's still young in NBA -its only his third season with a second team. He has never been given a chance to play yet. These type of players are worth trading for as fillers. In our case, like I said, I'd do #7 for him straight up. Why did I bring this up, cause you have originally said he's shit and not worth anything. As for going to Bucks forums; I won't there are enough knuckleheads here... oh, and by the way, I like Milwaukee talent a lot. If they let this team develop, we will be fighting with them for 5-8 spot for years to come.

I think my issue with Udoh, is he was drafted so high partly because they thought they were getting more than just potential. He was an old rookie, by current standards. The fact that he's 26, and has not really improved his game since coming in is quite alarming. The only thing that seems to have improved is ft shooting. He may be long too, but he's not the explosive defender that Ibaka is...size is not that useful if you can't move your body to the right places fast enough. 26 is not young, even if he's only had a couple years in the pros. Most old draftees are picked hoping they can contribute right away. His contributions have hardly been significant.

In my mind, Udoh will never be anything more than a 4th or 5th big...in the absolute best case. And he's going to be making 4.5 million dollars next year...that's a lot of money to pay someone who's not likely to be in your 8-9 man rotation every night.

*also, my main point originally was that he is a guy they might be looking to move to clear cap or roster space. Again, you can get a cheaper depth big. They might also want some added flexibility with their roster. Whether it's trading for Bargs or a much better player, I do believe any team could have to take back extra players and money....and I pray that this would be a younger person like Udoh who could expire next year, than an old fart like Gooden who has a lot of money and years left.

**Basically, I agree with you Udoh has some potential, but it's not much higher than the level he's playing at. I see no reason the Bucks would make keeping him a dealbreaker if they had the chance to make a trade they like (again, even if it's not for Bargs, just focusing on Udoh). But for a team like TO, or any team hoping to improve going into next year, Udoh is a much better gamble than Gooden, for example. I don't think any team willing to take Ilyasova's deal will want to take such an amount/length either. To me, this leaves Udoh as a likely option for them to dump because a)he doesn't seem to matter for their long term plans, and b) he's throw in other teams might want because of even limited potential and no long-term commitment....which is clearly why Milwaukee wanted him tossed into the Bogut-Ellis trade.

[isaacthompson]

I'm scared that Colangelo might trade AB for players that we don't need like Ilyasova or old players with brutal contracts like Boozer and Gasol.

I disagree. If they are talented then get them here and work them into the system. This season has shown that, despite how they would fit, acquiring talent has put the team in a positive direction. Rudy didn't look like a fit for the team when we traded for him (another athletic wing to clash with DeMar) but he's been worked in and he's delivering.

[TRX]

@white men can't jump:

I would agree with you the difference in usage is fairly significant, but I want to point out a few things here.

1. My pointing out Ilyasova's usg% of 20% was to say he isn't ball dominant, but he's not an afterthought on the offensive end. Not to mention he's playing with Jennings and Ellis - so even though he's also playing most of his minutes with Mbah a Moute and Sanders, he's taking his fair share of shots, literally. He's not sitting in the corner waiting for wide open threes.

2. Ersan may not be better as a high usage player, but:

a) he's not complaining about being a role player, contributing from range (second best 3pt% for forwards playing 25mpg+ this season, in an off year) and by grabbing an above average number of orebs (not as much this year as he was last year, when he was fourth among forwards). He's also taking two-thirds the number of shots Bargnani is taking and taking almost as many from 10 feet and in.

b) Rudy Gay, in his (really short) Raptors tenure has a usg% (29.65%) slightly higher than Bargnani had last year (28.78%) and the year before (28.09%); the Raptors have essentially replaced the high-volume shot taker on this team.

3. Guess what Bargnani is doing with his extra usage. From his first four years ~(22usg%) to the two seasons before this one (~28usg%), his shots at the rim didn't increase and neither did his 3pta. Most of the increase came from 10-23 feet which is by far the most inefficient range on the court. To his credit, he was shooting it at slightly better than league average rates, but they're still the most inefficient locations. The point is... Bargnani and Ilyasova aren't as different as you might think.


Regarding rebounding though, the thing about Bargnani's rebounding though isn't so much that he's historically bad (which he is, with literally the worst total rebounding rate among significant players at his position for the last four years). Sometimes a player grabs less rebounds, but the team does better because he boxes out and gives other guys an awesome chance to grab it instead. In no year that Bargnani's been with the Raptors have they been a better rebounding team with him on the court than off it. The team is always grabbing 2%+ more of total rebounds available when he's off the court than when he's on it.

What I did notice though is that Ilyasova is right around a net neutral presence over the last three seasons and actually a net -1.9% this season. Even last year in his monster season, the team did better on the offensive boards, but that was offset by the team doing worse on the defensive boards. Looking at it a little closer, nobody was really a net positive with the Bucks on the boards last season and Jennings was a net -2.7% and featured in 19 of Milwaukee's 20 most common lineups, so I think it remains inconclusive right now.

[Matt52]

Trade idea fueled by rumours du jour:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=bc9t9mv

Dallas: Jennings, Gooden
Milwaukee: Bargnani, Collison, Wright, Crowder, Right to swap 1st rd picks w/ Dallas, LAL 2nd rd pick from Dallas, 2014 2nd rd pick TOR or SAC
Toronto: Ilyasova, Udoh, Dahntay Jones


Why?


Dallas: gets PG for future and Bank of Cuban writes off Gooden as cost of doing business.

Milwaukee: Saves guaranteed $20M, $28.5M if Ilyasova's option is eventually picked up, and likely $65-$73.5M once Jennings' extension is signed. They can get off the mediocrity treadmill and start a proper rebuild (attendance is already horrible and fans want change). Sanders, Mbah a Moute, and Henson are as good as any lineup to try and fit Bargnani in. Also, Bargnani's final year is a player option: maybe he hates Milwaukee so much he does not exercise it and makes next season a "contract year". This would save Milwaukee another $11M making previous numbers $31M, $39.5M, and $76-$84.5M. Milwaukee also gets a "local" kid back in Crowder who is on a cheap contract for the next 3 seasons.

Toronto: #tradeBargnani - mission accomplished. Ilyasova much better than #tradeBargnani in play, contract, and age.


Make no mistake this is not a basketball deal for Milwaukee except that they would be throwing in the towel to rebuild.

[white men can't jump]

Trade idea fueled by rumours du jour:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=bc9t9mv

Dallas: Jennings, Gooden
Milwaukee: Bargnani, Collison, Wright, Crowder, Right to swap 1st rd picks w/ Dallas, LAL 2nd rd pick from Dallas, 2014 2nd rd pick TOR or SAC
Toronto: Ilyasova, Udoh, Dahntay Jones


Why?


Dallas: gets PG for future and Bank of Cuban writes off Gooden as cost of doing business.

Milwaukee: Saves guaranteed $20M, $28.5M if Ilyasova's option is eventually picked up, and likely $65-$73.5M once Jennings' extension is signed. They can get off the mediocrity treadmill and start a proper rebuild (attendance is already horrible and fans want change). Sanders, Mbah a Moute, and Henson are as good as any lineup to try and fit Bargnani in. Also, Bargnani's final year is a player option: maybe he hates Milwaukee so much he does not exercise it and makes next season a "contract year". This would save Milwaukee another $11M making previous numbers $31M, $39.5M, and $76-$84.5M. Milwaukee also gets a "local" kid back in Crowder who is on a cheap contract for the next 3 seasons.

Toronto: #tradeBargnani - mission accomplished. Ilyasova much better than #tradeBargnani in play, contract, and age.


Make no mistake this is not a basketball deal for Milwaukee except that they would be throwing in the towel to rebuild.

Need to find a way to get this thing done...Somehow I've managed to get a lot of backlash about this whole Milwaukee might actually have value for Bargnani...

This is part of the reason people. THey have been mediocre since they drafted Jennings (not a knock on him), he wants money, and as a small market team they're not in a position to commit to that iwth the level of succes they've had (I hope). Why keep a role player like Ilyasova around on a team that will tank for a year or two??? On the other hand, can you think of a better player to feature in your team if you want to tank for a year or two than Bargnani??? And as a bonus, he helps gives you flexibility, and is a stretch 4 you need to have next to Sanders/Henson....It's crazy, but it just might all work...

[white men can't jump]

So, with things quieted down as they inevitably do before the deadline (the final storm)...I was pondering what would I be willing to do to get this deal done??? All the talk of Boozer has left me thinking....if people are willing to take on 15 million a year of Boozer, what throw ins will they accept with Ilyasova, who at 7.9 mill, makes a pretty large sum less than Boozer...
Candidates as I see them:
-Ekpe Udoh....if the Bucks don't see him in future plans, they may want to create an open roster space soon, and he'd be among the better options (as he could be a backup C/F) on their roster. His contract could be up next season (4.5ish million), and if we don't see him in future plans, we don't have to give him a qualifying offer and can renounce him.

-Drew Gooden....Just as long as Boozer/Bargs contracts...making 6.7ish million per season expiring in 2015. He's a piece of crap that can't be amnestied....but to put things in perspective, adding his contract to Ilyasova still commits less money than going after Boozer (roughly 14.5 million against 15+) over the next 2+ seasons. I want Ilyasova and I'm still not sure I'd do this. I'd say if they took Kleiza it'd help, but the Raps can just amnesty Kleiza if that's what it comes to, though I suppose if they'd take him now, it couldn't hurt. Will Gooden be able to even provide any help even as a backup C/F or end up being the most overpaid 6th big in the NBA since Yogi Stewart graced Toronto with his presence?

-Udrih, Dalembert...only because of expiring contracts. Both could be stopgap depth players. I really don't want Dalembert. Don't like players that bring a fresh bag of crazy to every situation they touch. Udrih would be fine, but I feel like they'll try to use him in a better deal or let him expire. These are obvious players they could probably move, but I doubt either ends up doing so in a Bargs trade.

So if the worst thing we can take is Gooden, would you??? Hard to say I would, but I can't say I wouldn't.
*Note, damn hard to work the salaries of this trade...would pretty much require them taking back Kleiza, or being willing to part with someone like Gray (I think a solid value player).

[Matt52]

So, with things quieted down as they inevitably do before the deadline (the final storm)...I was pondering what would I be willing to do to get this deal done??? All the talk of Boozer has left me thinking....if people are willing to take on 15 million a year of Boozer, what throw ins will they accept with Ilyasova, who at 7.9 mill, makes a pretty large sum less than Boozer...
Candidates as I see them:
-Ekpe Udoh....if the Bucks don't see him in future plans, they may want to create an open roster space soon, and he'd be among the better options (as he could be a backup C/F) on their roster. His contract could be up next season (4.5ish million), and if we don't see him in future plans, we don't have to give him a qualifying offer and can renounce him.

-Drew Gooden....Just as long as Boozer/Bargs contracts...making 6.7ish million per season expiring in 2015. He's a piece of crap that can't be amnestied....but to put things in perspective, adding his contract to Ilyasova still commits less money than going after Boozer (roughly 14.5 million against 15+) over the next 2+ seasons. I want Ilyasova and I'm still not sure I'd do this. I'd say if they took Kleiza it'd help, but the Raps can just amnesty Kleiza if that's what it comes to, though I suppose if they'd take him now, it couldn't hurt. Will Gooden be able to even provide any help even as a backup C/F or end up being the most overpaid 6th big in the NBA since Yogi Stewart graced Toronto with his presence?

-Udrih, Dalembert...only because of expiring contracts. Both could be stopgap depth players. I really don't want Dalembert. Don't like players that bring a fresh bag of crazy to every situation they touch. Udrih would be fine, but I feel like they'll try to use him in a better deal or let him expire. These are obvious players they could probably move, but I doubt either ends up doing so in a Bargs trade.

So if the worst thing we can take is Gooden, would you??? Hard to say I would, but I can't say I wouldn't.

I would take udoh or gooden to get ilyasova for bargnani.

[ReubenJRD]

I would take udoh or gooden to get ilyasova for bargnani.

Agreed. With Ilyasova coming in AS the prospect big, veteran pieces - especially guys like Gooden who is capable of playing on the inside - would better suit us.

[white men can't jump]

I would take udoh or gooden to get ilyasova for bargnani.

Agreed. With Ilyasova coming in AS the prospect big, veteran pieces - especially guys like Gooden who is capable of playing on the inside - would better suit us.

Ok, I just wanted to check if I was going a bit crazy. I honestly don't know what Gooden has left. Has he been injured this year? What the heck happened? He was somewhere between serviceable and solid, even last year....

[ReubenJRD]

Ok, I just wanted to check if I was going a bit crazy. I honestly don't know what Gooden has left. Has he been injured this year? What the heck happened? He was somewhere between serviceable and solid, even last year....

*Especially last year. That guy was putting up some scary numbers. Anyways, I think it's because Milwaukee has started to try developing their younger guys. Ilyasova, Udoh, Henson, etc.