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Thread: franchise outlook discussion

  1. #1
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    Default franchise outlook discussion

    negative
    -no capspace in near future to take on large contracts

    - bargnani=unmoveable as of right now derozan=hasn't lived up to contract, doesn't bring a unique skillset to the team, not an elite shooter or defender.

    -not an elite team. decent chance we are stuck on that treadmill.

    -amnesty can't save us.

    positive
    -promising prospects ross, valanciunas

    -good character players , locker room atmosphere

    -coach has players respect

    -at least bargnani isn't amare, looks like he is trying his hardest defensively.

    -derozan has chance to live up to contract.


    this is just off the top of my head. What is everyone else's thoughts on how far this franchise can go with this core of players. I want a good level headed discussion, no pity party, or tenforthewin delusional discussion, ok.
    Last edited by akashsingh; Thu Feb 21st, 2013 at 07:22 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I think the outlook has:

    1) numerous reoccurring Gasol to Toronto talk
    2) numerous reoccurring Gasol to Minnesota with Lakers 3 team trade talk
    3) a few glimmers of brilliance from Bargnani over the next 28 games but continued lost handfuls of hair lost in RaptorLand
    4) the bar being lowered for Bargnani to become a solid 3rd string option - which he fails at
    5) Colangelo being given his 3rd year option
    6) a team as currently constructed capable of getting the 5/6 seed but one injury away from a lottery pick in the very near term but capable of more if JV becomes Noah-like or better (my money is on better).


    I hope the outlook:

    1) sees a valuable asset(s) returned for Bargnani somehow, someway... like a crazy 5 team deal with LAL, MIL, ATL, TOR, and MIN.
    2) sees JV turn in to his potential
    3) sees TR become half what Raptor fans think he will become (that would be a borderline all-star).



    I fear the outlook

    1) has Bargnani in a Raptor uniform until April 2015
    2) has the impossible happen and Bargnani continues to decline
    3) the Raptors holding numerous over paid contracts (DD, LF, AB).
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Feb 21st, 2013 at 07:54 PM.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    Lowry/Fields/Demar/Bargs/Klieza should all be moved for legit pieces..T.Ross & Val need to become the studs were hoping for or the deals we do over the next season or two have to be blockbusters.. right now we have to much money invested in guys who consistantly dissapear for long periods through out a season.. Im not sure what the outlook is but as it sits now were a 1st round knockout team

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    DeMar isnt a legit piece???? how so? Lowry, DeRozan Gay and JV are probably the core moving forward pretty much untradeable Lowry and Gay are pretty much a package deal now (pretty much family) one will see it as betryal and want out if one is traded away.

    I have no idea where Fields fits into the future hes making too much money for a guy that doesnt have much offensive tools.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    DeMar isnt a legit piece???? how so? Lowry, DeRozan Gay and JV are probably the core moving forward pretty much untradeable Lowry and Gay are pretty much a package deal now (pretty much family) one will see it as betryal and want out if one is traded away.

    I have no idea where Fields fits into the future hes making too much money for a guy that doesnt have much offensive tools.
    I would guess that the primary core is Gay, Lowry, Ross and Valanciunas.

    I'm guessing DeRozan (they're loaded at wing, his contract is huge, Gay is #1 wing and Ross is "untradeable") and Johnson (great 3rd big) are the secondary core.

    Fields is on the bubble of the secondary core - his contract likely makes him untradeable, he's still young and if his shot improves, he'll cement his status as the primary wing defender.

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    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    1. We have a 2 way player who has the tools to be an all-star in Rudy Gay. Quite frankly, his defense has been better than his offense which I blame on the fact that we are too isolation heavy, perimeter oriented team. It's like watching the Lakers of last year without inside presence. He needs to be a willing facilitator to take advantage of his skill set.

    2. Demar can settle in on a secondary wing option. Another off season of improvement (hopefully, he works on his shot base, tightens his handle, gets more upper body strength and more awareness) and his $9.5 M salary becomes easier to swallow or at the very least, becomes a great trade chip. In my opinion, he is overpaid by $1 M, which isn't so bad to digest (assuming this year's production is where he will be next year). Keep in mind, Redick is getting $7 M and is looking for $10 M per year this coming off season.

    3. Two bright spots in Jonas Valanciunas and Terrence Ross. I believe that this off season will be big for the two young men in terms of developing their skill set. Ross has done enough this season for management to keep him in his rookie deal even though minutes will be tough for the rest of the season while the team aims to catch the Bucks. Valanciunas has been a joy to watch in terms of effort and enthusiasm. Both men need to hit up the gym with Amir; learn from the master.

    4. Moving forward, Dwane Casey needs to hire some wise ass offensively brilliant assistant coach. His lack of creativity offensively is often exposed. Phil Jackson said in a recent interview:

    "Basketball is a simple game. The goal is penetration, get the ball close to the basket, which is accomplished in 3 ways - dribbling, passing and offensive rebounding. You have to have a system that makes all things work. Pop [San Antonio's Gregg Popovich] has that. A lot of stuff he does represents the triangle offense. They flow into it a different way. Strong-side triangle. Pinch-post action."

    Watching our recent stretch of games, I can safely conclude that our plays develop slowly, with only one off ball action happening to free up a Demar or simple isolation plays. Just as much as the team emphasizes of the defensive system, you need an offensive system in place.

    5. Kyle Lowry has been a big reason as to why our defense has improved recently. He is tenacious and he goes in and grabs rebounds. Currently, he is being asked to carry on Jose's role of facilitating the offense. So far, he has done a horrible job which leads me to believe that the system is not suitable for Kyle.

    6. Not much cap space seeing that we have about $20 M tied up to Kleiza, Bargnani and Fields which is not a good outlook moving forward. I feel that we need a skilled 2 way big man in the mix to be considered a legitimate playoff team.

    7. Bargnani is pretty much dead weight. I hope he finds a little bit of dignity in him to show up the fans that booed him in order to increase his value. To his credit, he has been doing a good job at guarding the post and I've witnessed him rebound more in traffic.
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    With 17.5 pts. 4 rbs. 2.5 assts. Demar has more than earned his contract. If these numbers continue, it's a great contract. So this does not belong under 'negative' IMO.

    Of the present starters, only Amir does not belong there. If this position is filled by a legitimate PF, Raptors have a solid starting unit. If this is done and Amir joins the 2nd unit(Fields, Ross, Bargnani) it's not a bad situation. Without a doubt the back up PG need will be addressed in the off season.

    As much as Casey has earned his players respect, it's an area that needs to be looked at IMO and as far as cap space(or the lack of it) is concerned, it's where Bryan's creativity and expertise is critical and I don't see why he wont deliver.

    If I sound optimistic it's because there's reason for it.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    DeMar isnt a legit piece???? how so? Lowry, DeRozan Gay and JV are probably the core moving forward pretty much untradeable Lowry and Gay are pretty much a package deal now (pretty much family) one will see it as betryal and want out if one is traded away.

    I have no idea where Fields fits into the future hes making too much money for a guy that doesnt have much offensive tools.
    regarding fields and the poison pill. in year 3 is he a 10 million expiring for other teams still or was that only if new York had of signed him?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    I think what we've got is a team that's a lock for the playoffs and not much else

    The Good: There's unquestionably more talent on this roster than there has been in a long time.

    The Bad: We've got too many iso players and I don't see anyone who can facilitate an offense, nor do we have anyone who can shoot the 3 ball.

    If this team wants to challenge for home court in the 1st round these things need to be addressed (imo). How can that happen?

    3pt shooting - hopefully will come from Ross, but if he doesn't turn out to be a 3pt shooter than it'll have to come from a trade.
    Facilitation - I don't see Lowry being traded and I don't see him magically morphing into a pass first PG, so ball movement is going to have to come from other positions. I don't see anyone currently on the roster who can step up and fill this role so this is also going to have to come from trades.

    Basically there are two positions where I see these upgrades being made SG, and PF. SG because I think Lowry's, Derozan's and Gay's games are too similar, and although I don't mind redundancy between a starter and a bench player, the redundancy we currently have with our starters is problematic and Demar is the odd man out (imo).

    For PF it's obvious that Bargs is the odd man out, and unless we see him being able to contribute meaningfully from the bench (I don't see it) he has to be moved for something.

    If I was the GM I'd be looking to trade Derozan for someone who can do two of these three things shoot threes/pass/defend.

    Theoretically, If you could trade Bargs for a PF who was an amazing passer (Pau Gasol?) than you might be able to get away with keeping Derozan. I just don't think there are to many amazing passers available at the PF spot.
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  10. #10
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    I am looking to see what happens with four players. Demar, Fields, Ross and JV.

    Demar has improved every year he's been on the team. I see no reason he won't improve again for next season. I believe he studies his own tape, so he is quite conscious of his weak points. Next year, improved ball handling, increased strength and better court vision will lead to improved assists and fewer turnovers.

    Fields will be working with the team coaches and trainers on his shot. I think it is killing him now that he can't shoot well. He plays so hard when he is out there that I suspect we will see a significant improvement next year. It's the only part of his game that needs to improve. This year he is shooting 44%, but he is pretty much only taking layups, so his scoring is way down.

    Ross needs to stop being a rookie. He seems humble and good natured. I have no idea how hard he will work in the off-season, but if he puts in the time and spends time with the assistant coaches I expect improvement in his shot selection and accuracy next season. A subset of all of this is Casey needs an offensive minded Assistant who can come up with better use of players. I believe Ross would do better with better offensive schemes being run.

    Jv, I don't have to say much. Get stronger. And send little private notes to the rest of the team. "When I am in the paint, waving my hands, you can pass to me and I can hit the shot." He is not being used well yet by Casey. See above reference to offensive minded assistant coach.

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I am looking to see what happens with four players. Demar, Fields, Ross and JV.

    Demar has improved every year he's been on the team. I see no reason he won't improve again for next season. I believe he studies his own tape, so he is quite conscious of his weak points. Next year, improved ball handling, increased strength and better court vision will lead to improved assists and fewer turnovers.

    Fields will be working with the team coaches and trainers on his shot. I think it is killing him now that he can't shoot well. He plays so hard when he is out there that I suspect we will see a significant improvement next year. It's the only part of his game that needs to improve. This year he is shooting 44%, but he is pretty much only taking layups, so his scoring is way down.

    Ross needs to stop being a rookie. He seems humble and good natured. I have no idea how hard he will work in the off-season, but if he puts in the time and spends time with the assistant coaches I expect improvement in his shot selection and accuracy next season. A subset of all of this is Casey needs an offensive minded Assistant who can come up with better use of players. I believe Ross would do better with better offensive schemes being run.

    Jv, I don't have to say much. Get stronger. And send little private notes to the rest of the team. "When I am in the paint, waving my hands, you can pass to me and I can hit the shot." He is not being used well yet by Casey. See above reference to offensive minded assistant coach.
    This sums up a lot of my thoughts, though I don't think Fields matters so much for the franchise's outlook. He's a utility player so he'll find a way to be effective no matter what. It's not his fault BC made a dumb strategic move with his contract. The biggest problem with Fields is can you afford to keep him as a 4th wing at that money, and how do you trade him if you can't?

    Aside from that, I agree with what you say about the rest of the guys. I see the chance for this team to be more than a 6-8 seed tied almost completely to 2 guys: JV and Lowry.
    JV: Just insane amount of potential. I think his impact this year would even have been higher with a coach who cuts him a bit more slack and teammates who actually pass him the ball. I have a hard time seeing him as less than an all-star, and this team really needs to make his development priority #1.
    Lowry: Shows flashes of being the kind of PG we need, especially with this team where he can become a pass-first PG who just looks for his shot when it's there or his team needs him to. Way too disappointing defensively, but I think dude needs to work on his body. He's too short to be that big, and he plays all out. That said, when he's on, he's so close to being the PG this team needs. I also think his attitude/personality and JV's are great matches. They could make an excellent leadership tandem for years to come. Lowry needs to have a strong year next year, to make it worth re-signing him (and hopefully not just be a contract year aberration).

    This team is not going to do that well as built unless they get a total team effort, and learn to play a smart methodical style of basketball. I would love for them to run and gun, but frankly, I fear this will lead to a disorganized style of play that looks good in the regular season but fails in the playoffs, much like Atlanta. This team needs to be more like Detroit earlier this decade...obviously not as gritty a roster, but in terms of knowing roles, playing with a plan, and controlling the pace of the game with smart play, not athleticism and chaos. So a lot of this will also depend on coaching staff. I do think Casey has the motivation aspect, and the defensive aspect, but not sure about offense yet. We'll see if things even get better finishing out this year, because right now it looks horrible.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    I'm concerned that with our limited options (no cap room, no takers for Bargnani, and possibly no first round draft pick), that next season is going to be the exact same group of guys. I don't know how comfortable I am with Amir being the starting PF into next season, but can't see how they upgrade that. I don't think we have a chance of getting Millsap or any of the other big name PFs people like to dream about, so it is either status quo or a gem find.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I'm concerned that with our limited options (no cap room, no takers for Bargnani, and possibly no first round draft pick), that next season is going to be the exact same group of guys. I don't know how comfortable I am with Amir being the starting PF into next season, but can't see how they upgrade that. I don't think we have a chance of getting Millsap or any of the other big name PFs people like to dream about, so it is either status quo or a gem find.
    Well, with the trade deadline come and gone, it's hard to figure what BC's plan is for Bargs. Will offers get better in the summer? Is he just banking on Pau? If that falls through, is he willing to take a crap deal (role player(s), cap relief, maybe pick(s)) for Bargs? I don't see how this team can start another season with Bargs at PF. I also agree with you that it's going to be damn near impossible to get a great PF. I think from a trade perspective, I have a very hard time seeing any PFs being made available, apart from the slim chance at Gasol (Bargs would still seem like a good fit next to Howard in D'Antoni's system) or maybe Ersan if following the season Milwaukee decides to blow it up. Millsap, Smith, West, and even Jefferson seem like pipe dreams to me.
    My hopefully realistic target who I think might be gettable with the MLE, partly because of other PF/C names available ebing more sought: Carl Landry. His production would be solid combined with Amir's at PF. I think he also has the right motor/energy for the role.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Any legit Gasol/Bargnani talk will need the Lakers taking on one of Kleiza, Amir, or Fields. I don't see the Raps parting with Amir and I don't see the Lakers wanting Kleiza or Fields...... or Bargnani.
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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Any legit Gasol/Bargnani talk will need the Lakers taking on one of Kleiza, Amir, or Fields. I don't see the Raps parting with Amir and I don't see the Lakers wanting Kleiza or Fields...... or Bargnani.
    Hence my saying very slim chance.....there are some things which MAY (or could easily not) work out in the Raps favor:
    -Pau's salary and injuries....hard to send back enough assets. Most teams like guys that they have signed to deals in the Bargs range. The ones that don't....well you saw names up for trade...Humphries, Gordon, Boozer....And doubtful Chicago would do such a thing since they hate the luxury tax. LA certainly wouldn't want Humphries, and doubtful they want Gordon. Maybe in a sign-and-trade in the offseason, but even some options there for direct deals (Atlanta, Utah) seem very unlikely especially given his contract.
    -Landry Fields...one of the only coaches in the league who might want him is D'Antoni, who absolutely loved him in NY.
    -Style and roster...again, I repeat that as much as Bargs is loathed, I think for any team to take a chance on him they have to be pretty confident in their C defensively. Hence Chicago wanting him (even as a mostly cost cutting move) made sense with Noah at C. He'll also have to be in a system where he's allowed to spot up and react as a scorer off the ball. I think there's little doubt he could regain his offensive form in their system.

    Granted, all these things considered, it's still a big ass long shot, at best...but I really have a hard time figuring out potential landing places for Gasol. The only other team I know that wants him is Minny, and they'll also have a hard time putting together a package.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Well, with the trade deadline come and gone, it's hard to figure what BC's plan is for Bargs. Will offers get better in the summer? Is he just banking on Pau? If that falls through, is he willing to take a crap deal (role player(s), cap relief, maybe pick(s)) for Bargs? I don't see how this team can start another season with Bargs at PF. I also agree with you that it's going to be damn near impossible to get a great PF. I think from a trade perspective, I have a very hard time seeing any PFs being made available, apart from the slim chance at Gasol (Bargs would still seem like a good fit next to Howard in D'Antoni's system) or maybe Ersan if following the season Milwaukee decides to blow it up. Millsap, Smith, West, and even Jefferson seem like pipe dreams to me.
    My hopefully realistic target who I think might be gettable with the MLE, partly because of other PF/C names available ebing more sought: Carl Landry. His production would be solid combined with Amir's at PF. I think he also has the right motor/energy for the role.
    I really like Landry and think he would be a good fit as a short-term solution.

    Even if we do move Bargnani, what are we going to get in return? Surely no team is going to give up the rugged interior player who can score on the blocks for Bargnani. Any deal for Bargnani wont likely solve our PF problem, which means Amir + what-ever stop gap solution we can find. A cheap option like soon to be waived Hakim Warrick might be realistic but not exactly inspiring. Until we have a first round pick again, we might be stuck with Amir/Bargnani.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Any legit Gasol/Bargnani talk will need the Lakers taking on one of Kleiza, Amir, or Fields. I don't see the Raps parting with Amir and I don't see the Lakers wanting Kleiza or Fields...... or Bargnani.
    The franchise is up the creek. MLSE should pick up BC's option so as to speed up the franchise transfer to Seattle!
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    DeMar isnt a legit piece???? how so? Lowry, DeRozan Gay and JV are probably the core moving forward pretty much untradeable Lowry and Gay are pretty much a package deal now (pretty much family) one will see it as betryal and want out if one is traded away.

    I have no idea where Fields fits into the future hes making too much money for a guy that doesnt have much offensive tools.
    its not so much that demar isnt a legit piece(even though i lumped him into that cat.)its that we need a shooter who is consistant & plays lockdown D from the SG spot.. T.Ross has a chance to be that guy if he works on his game but as of right now isnt playing consistantly,prob. gets better with more minutes but likely 2seasons away from taking over starting SG.. as for Lowry hes been a bust so far if u ask me...he hasnt looked any better then Bayless was for us..i havent exactly enjoyed watching him whine to the refs & act a fool like hes been doing..he even kicked a guy while he was down on the ground & got T'd up.. i wouldnt say Lowry/Gay are a package deal either... rudy wants to win & has watched his buddy Kyle get traded away once already.... if it betters the team im sure Rudy would be fine..

    we got a PG who isnt a great passer, a SG who cant shoot, a PF who cant rebound or play d, & a rookie C being asked to play over his head right now..i think wer still a ways away from being a legit contender

    id be looking for a PF with post scoring & rebounding...a vet starting Center to bring Val along..maybe someone like Perkins who will likely be done in a couple years..& a Vet SG who shoots the 3 plays good D & is always moving on offense.. & lastly if Lowry dont smarten up & play like we expected him to then we need to look at the PG spot too.. or we can keep this team & be a 1st round knockout LOL
    Last edited by DoNDaDDa; Fri Feb 22nd, 2013 at 11:24 AM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I am looking to see what happens with four players. Demar, Fields, Ross and JV.

    Demar has improved every year he's been on the team. I see no reason he won't improve again for next season. I believe he studies his own tape, so he is quite conscious of his weak points. Next year, improved ball handling, increased strength and better court vision will lead to improved assists and fewer turnovers.

    Fields will be working with the team coaches and trainers on his shot. I think it is killing him now that he can't shoot well. He plays so hard when he is out there that I suspect we will see a significant improvement next year. It's the only part of his game that needs to improve. This year he is shooting 44%, but he is pretty much only taking layups, so his scoring is way down.

    Ross needs to stop being a rookie. He seems humble and good natured. I have no idea how hard he will work in the off-season, but if he puts in the time and spends time with the assistant coaches I expect improvement in his shot selection and accuracy next season. A subset of all of this is Casey needs an offensive minded Assistant who can come up with better use of players. I believe Ross would do better with better offensive schemes being run.

    Jv, I don't have to say much. Get stronger. And send little private notes to the rest of the team. "When I am in the paint, waving my hands, you can pass to me and I can hit the shot." He is not being used well yet by Casey. See above reference to offensive minded assistant coach.
    I agree with this 100%. I think the importance of Fields getting his shot back can't be overstated, right now he is our best wing rebounder and is one of the best defenders on the team. He is also signed for a significant chunk of change for 2 seasons after this one. If he starts shooting well, especially from 3, he will add depth that we are missing right now.

    Ross is an unknown, he could go either way. If he focuses on improving his jumper and developing a move to get to the rim, I think he'll become a reasonnably good offensive piece fairly quickly. If he doesn't, he is going to flame out.

    Demar is hugely underrated by this fanbase and he's still getting better. He needs to work on shot selection, but even some of the long two's he shoots are within his game now.

    I think the biggest thing that will effect our franchises future is how Rudy Gay plays. He's played well for us and has added that crunch time scorer we were desperate for. When he wants to, his defense is very good and he has the size to be effective at the 4 in spurts. He has two big flaws that keep him from beinh among the very elite: he takes bad shots and gets tunnel vision. I think if you get him passing a bit more and tightening his shot selection and he will elevate this team in the same way other great threes around the league have elevated theirs. He has all the athletic talent, physical gifts, and skills that Lebron, Durant, and Melo have, he just need to use them like those guys do.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    They desperately need another elite player. I don't have the answer as to how that can happen but without another top shelf guy they are not going anywhere other first round playoffs. Maybe.

    I continute to hold to my view that this franchise's outlook is bleak as long as Colangelo is here but there isn't any sense belabouring the point cause he doesn't appear to be going anywhere, so, hopefully, he'll make us doubters look like fools.

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