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Thread: 2013 season is at the very least a Moral Victory

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    yes we've seen progress, and yes i'm excited about next year. but the odds are heavily against us even before the loss to the wiz.

    But imo it's best to keep things in perspective. We've still got a few issues that need to be worked out, if we want to get out of the first round.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

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  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    The positives certainly seem lessened with that ugly loss to the Wizards. Gotta beat certain teams, and that was one of them.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    Meh I disagree

    this is a process. "Winning" can only mean winning a championship, and I don't believe that we are "winning" if we make the playoffs and get swept
    Not sure why everyone is so convinced we'd get swept if we made the playoffs. Not that we'd beat Miami but I think we match up well with them. We have good wing defenders now, and Amir vs Bosh is solid if he can stay out of foul trouble. I think we could take a game or two from them. Sure we'll get blown out a couple games but we're streaky offensively. That alone can get you wins in an up-tempo game.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

  4. #24
    Administrator Arsenalist's Avatar
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    Moral victory because we gave Jonas 22 minutes a game? We deviated from our rebuild path and set different expectations midway through the season. Moral victory would've been to see Jonas, Ross, Davis, Bargnani, DeRozan all take steps forward. None of that is happening and we're invested in Gay. Given the new direction of this team, there are no moral victories, only wins and losses to count.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Moral victory because we gave Jonas 22 minutes a game? We deviated from our rebuild path and set different expectations midway through the season. Moral victory would've been to see Jonas, Ross, Davis, Bargnani, DeRozan all take steps forward. None of that is happening and we're invested in Gay. Given the new direction of this team, there are no moral victories, only wins and losses to count.
    This is too simplistic. The Raps are 11 games under .500 but have won 6 of the last ten. If they win 60% of their games the rest of the year that puts them somewhere around 39 wins (not good) but which also means they would be an on annualized pace of 49-50 wins (very good). In which case, you could say that the trade was a big win that provides for optimism going forward. Obviously, I am not a fan of Colangelo or his half-assed plans and I still think this roster needs work (as I posted above) but it is a huge improvement on the roster they had a year ago.

    I am not sure about your development statement either. Bargnani wasn't ever going to take a step forward. He's a 7th year pro. Derozan is basically what he is. You can expect marginal improvements (I would hope) but what you see now is basically what you got for the next 4 years. Guys like Davis and Ross are a dime a dozen. Not sure why their development is so key. As for Jonas, I don't know, they've clearly found their centre going forward and he's played very good for a rookie big. You aren't going to "develop" guys in-season anyway. That happens in the off season.

  6. #26
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote draftedraptor wrote: View Post
    surely you mean MORALE victory
    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    do I?

    Wait let me look it up...yes i Do!
    Thanks....hopefully I never made that mistake in something work related
    No, you were right to begin with. Its Moral Victory. Not Morale Victory.

    A moral victory occurs when a person, team, army or other group loses a confrontation, and yet achieves some other moral gain. This gain might be unrelated to the confrontation in question, and the gain is often considerably less than what would have been accomplished if an actual victory had been achieved.
    Source - Wikipedia
    an actual defeat regarded as a virtual victory because of the narrowness of the margin or because of some circumstance that gives satisfaction or hope
    Source - Merriam Webster


    As per the thread itself, I would agree. While the season is not completely decided, I think most Raps fans will be satisfied going into next season.
    "I just dunked. Got a little dunk. Thatís nice." Terrence Ross

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    This is too simplistic. The Raps are 11 games under .500 but have won 6 of the last ten. If they win 60% of their games the rest of the year that puts them somewhere around 39 wins (not good) but which also means they would be an on annualized pace of 49-50 wins (very good). In which case, you could say that the trade was a big win that provides for optimism going forward. Obviously, I am not a fan of Colangelo or his half-assed plans and I still think this roster needs work (as I posted above) but it is a huge improvement on the roster they had a year ago.

    I am not sure about your development statement either. Bargnani wasn't ever going to take a step forward. He's a 7th year pro. Derozan is basically what he is. You can expect marginal improvements (I would hope) but what you see now is basically what you got for the next 4 years. Guys like Davis and Ross are a dime a dozen. Not sure why their development is so key. As for Jonas, I don't know, they've clearly found their centre going forward and he's played very good for a rookie big. You aren't going to "develop" guys in-season anyway. That happens in the off season.
    With proper coaching, development is constant. There are more examples of players with no development after an off-season than there are of players who made great strides over the course of a summer. That's why there are so few most-improved candidates. It takes time, irregardless of in-season or not. That being said, if you aren't getting playing time i.e. Ross, you are stunting your development to some degree. Casey is in a tough spot as playing Ross can be a detriment to the team at times and he's trying to make the playoffs for his job's sake. I don't want players who can perform great on the practice court. I want confident, efficient game players. Can't develop that in a gym over the course of a summer.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

  8. #28
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    This is too simplistic. The Raps are 11 games under .500 but have won 6 of the last ten. If they win 60% of their games the rest of the year that puts them somewhere around 39 wins (not good) but which also means they would be an on annualized pace of 49-50 wins (very good). In which case, you could say that the trade was a big win that provides for optimism going forward. Obviously, I am not a fan of Colangelo or his half-assed plans and I still think this roster needs work (as I posted above) but it is a huge improvement on the roster they had a year ago.

    I am not sure about your development statement either. Bargnani wasn't ever going to take a step forward. He's a 7th year pro. Derozan is basically what he is. You can expect marginal improvements (I would hope) but what you see now is basically what you got for the next 4 years. Guys like Davis and Ross are a dime a dozen. Not sure why their development is so key. As for Jonas, I don't know, they've clearly found their centre going forward and he's played very good for a rookie big. You aren't going to "develop" guys in-season anyway. That happens in the off season.
    +1

    Whether u get better thr

  9. #29
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    This is too simplistic. The Raps are 11 games under .500 but have won 6 of the last ten. If they win 60% of their games the rest of the year that puts them somewhere around 39 wins (not good) but which also means they would be an on annualized pace of 49-50 wins (very good). In which case, you could say that the trade was a big win that provides for optimism going forward. Obviously, I am not a fan of Colangelo or his half-assed plans and I still think this roster needs work (as I posted above) but it is a huge improvement on the roster they had a year ago.

    I am not sure about your development statement either. Bargnani wasn't ever going to take a step forward. He's a 7th year pro. Derozan is basically what he is. You can expect marginal improvements (I would hope) but what you see now is basically what you got for the next 4 years. Guys like Davis and Ross are a dime a dozen. Not sure why their development is so key. As for Jonas, I don't know, they've clearly found their centre going forward and he's played very good for a rookie big. You aren't going to "develop" guys in-season anyway. That happens in the off season.
    +1

    Whether u improve through development or moves you make it doesn't matter

    My point is that we should be happy that our future will not be determined by bargs and dd's development

    And that we are better

  10. #30
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    From having a terrible start they went to playing decent basketball. Then with Gay the team went to a higher level. So they've gone from terrible to OK to pretty good. There's been a progression not a regression and that's good. One or both of Ross and Vals. is going to improve and that can only make the team better. If they make the play offs, great. If they finish 9th or 10th the pick is OKC's and in a weak draft that's OK too.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  11. #31
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    Don't like the small market team mentality. It's championship or bust. We have to win our games. There are no morale/moral victories. They have to play harder & get better. NOW. Fight till the bitter end. Play the starters 50 minutes if you have to.

  12. #32
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    I think this season is a disappointment overall.

    So many close games lost, which is the Raptors MO for the past 5 years, so that hasn't changed.

    No post presence still.

    The 2 key rookies needed more minutes to blossom.

    Bargs is still on the team

    *thumbs down*

  13. #33
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    Quote JasonS wrote: View Post
    I think this season is a disappointment overall.

    So many close games lost, which is the Raptors MO for the past 5 years, so that hasn't changed.

    No post presence still.

    The 2 key rookies needed more minutes to blossom.

    Bargs is still on the team

    *thumbs down*
    But what are you comparing these results to?

    Before the gay trade, Ross and jval were getting the same amount of minutes. Bargs was playing 35 minutes a game and was a critical part of our offense.
    Who was our threat in the post?

    The point is, where was this season going before the trade?

    The squad we have now will make the playoffs next year and if we add some big men in the off season and sort out the rotation we are better off

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    The point is, where was this season going before the trade?

    The squad we have now will make the playoffs next year and if we add some big men in the off season and sort out the rotation we are better off
    I doubt we're going to add any big man of consequence, but I think this roster will make the play-offs next year. Overall, the team is better than it was at the start of the season.

    I guess the question is, what were your expectations going into the season?
    Play-offs? If so, then the season is a disappointment because the team as-was constructed came up short and even with the moves we are out of the playoffs.
    Improvement? If so, the team is better than it was and we are in a decent spot moving forward.

  15. #35
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I doubt we're going to add any big man of consequence, but I think this roster will make the play-offs next year. Overall, the team is better than it was at the start of the season.

    I guess the question is, what were your expectations going into the season?
    Play-offs? If so, then the season is a disappointment because the team as-was constructed came up short and even with the moves we are out of the playoffs.
    Improvement? If so, the team is better than it was and we are in a decent spot moving forward.

    my expectations going into the season were simply to see some sustainable improvements/development to the core of the team, and hopefully squeeze into 8th or finish in 9th.

    The bottom line is before the Gay trade, our core group was not one that could finish even 9th. We were 1-17 against above 500 teams and that says a lot.

    Pre-trade:
    Bargs was proving that the "13 games" were an aboration, yet he was still getting 35 minutes a night.
    Derozan was our first scoring option and he disappeared against good teams.
    Lowry was not being played in favour of Jose, which didn't help anything for the future, let alone the present.
    We had no solution for a starting 3

    The point is, we were gong down the same road as usual, and even though we played much better ball after the first 23 games, there were still so many question marks about who this team really is and what they are capable of.

    The new team we have with Gay in the lineup is different from the core. We can all be confident that this lineup can make and compete in the playoffs and more importantly that this is sustainable.

    there are no questions surrounding whether player X can "repeat the stretch where Y happened".

    We are not looking at smoke and mirrors. Gay makes DD better. Amir starting at 4 is better. Lowry is our most effective defender at the point in a long time.

    All of these points are fact and should continue to carry over into next year. If the players we have now just improve under casey, we can be a 4th or 5th seed next year.

  16. #36
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    But what are you comparing these results to?

    Before the gay trade, Ross and jval were getting the same amount of minutes. Bargs was playing 35 minutes a game and was a critical part of our offense.
    Who was our threat in the post?

    The point is, where was this season going before the trade?

    The squad we have now will make the playoffs next year and if we add some big men in the off season and sort out the rotation we are better off
    Before the season started I expected a .500 team. I was hoping JV would get more touches in the paint and give us a bit of a post presence and I even felt before any trade that JV and Ross should get more minutes since we couldn't get any wins anyways. I am very future-oriented.

    People don't realize it is basically the same Raps man. They foul like crazy on defense, and then as a result we lose the game. Raptors are dead last when it comes to fouling opponents, they must be, almost every other possession it seems they foul someone, not to mention in the act of shooting but this is as a result of the opponents easy access to the paint.

  17. #37
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    Quote JasonS wrote: View Post
    Before the season started I expected a .500 team. I was hoping JV would get more touches in the paint and give us a bit of a post presence and I even felt before any trade that JV and Ross should get more minutes since we couldn't get any wins anyways. I am very future-oriented.

    People don't realize it is basically the same Raps man. They foul like crazy on defense, and then as a result we lose the game. Raptors are dead last when it comes to fouling opponents, they must be, almost every other possession it seems they foul someone, not to mention in the act of shooting but this is as a result of the opponents easy access to the paint.
    I agree this strategy needs to change...it works well when you have a slow pace like Indiana, but not when you want to play uptempo (i.e. other team gets more possessions, we get more fouls, they get more trips to the line)

    Casey has done a really poor job of adapting on the fly to the new personnel

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    1. Our former best player, a guy who used to be good for about 20 pts per game, regressed in a huge way this year. Barganani's sub par play has been a major problem this year and hurts us badly since if he played even reasonnably well, we'd probably already be in 8th.
    The scariest thing about Bargnani's regression is that it isn't the first time this has happened in his career. He regressed after his rookie year and now he's done it again. In fact, that sophomore season is eerily similar to this season. It's like he jumped into a time machine and went back 6 years. Hopefully history doesn't repeat itself and Colangelo doesn't decide he deserves another a 5 yr - $50M contract.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Rookie DeRozanJohnsonFan's Avatar
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    The Raptors team have a pretty solid group heading into the off-season work that has to be done is obviously improving the bench and Andrea's performance. Next year I guarantee DeMar DeRozan will claim his turf as the front in center player for the Raptors, every game he has played it's obvious that he's progressing, he's gonna become damn near dangerous next season.

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