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Thread: Rudy Gay "Pseudo Superstar"

  1. #21
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Rudy Gay isn't a franchise changer, but he's an all-star calibre potential talent, who is a piece that significantly helps a franchise, not entirely change it though.

  2. #22
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    I love how we choose to remember the VC Tmac days....Don't people remember THE REST OF THAT TEAM???

    Vince and TMAC played with guys like dell curry, chris childs, doug christie, antonio davis, Kevin Willis, Alvin williams and Charles Oakley.

    We were really a tough bruising team that could defend, and was well rounded, we just needed some more playoff experience together.

    These were more than formidable role players. We had leadership, a post presence on offense in AD, toughness, and most importantly, coach that played the best guys . For god sake, how good were the Raptors when VC was playing with a young Chris Bosh and the guys we had on that team? Did you guys ever LOOK at those rosters (2002-2005)??

    VC was never a savior. Just an amazing Dunker. We won ONE playoff series.

    My point is, there is no reason why this version of the Raptors cannot be just as successful (i.e. ONE playoff series win).
    But Gay and Derozan will not determine this, just as VC and TMAC never did either. They were parts of a whole.

    If we can trot out a starting lineup with a developed Jonas and a consistent Kyle Lowry, while taking the mish-mash of guys we have on the bench and turning them into a solid 4 man bench rotation, we might even be better than that team.

    The whole idea of a `franchise` savior is ridiculous.

    Maybe once a decade or so, a single player can turn a franchise into a winning team by JUST being on the team and making the other guys better. Even Kobe is not one of those guys. Lebron, Michael Jordan, Maybe KD, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan...these are the types of people you need to talk about and they are all in the top 20 who ever played.

    Let`s talk about reality. We were headed no where and turned around a guy mediocre guy like Jose into a great player in Gay. Derozan is more effective BECAUSE Gay is on the team.

    because of that trade and having Gay, there is a conceivable way where we can make the 4th or 5th seed next year and be a relevant team again.

    Anyone who thinks that Gay is not elevating this team to another level is crazy. Anyone who remembers Carter and McGrady as being franchise saviors, or putting the team on their back any more than Gay has already done is crazier.

    One playoff series win with Gay on the team and he has matched Carter. Doesn`t matter how nice some of those dunks were
    Last edited by BallaBalla; Fri Mar 1st, 2013 at 02:00 PM.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    I love how we choose to remember the VC Tmac days....Don't people remember THE REST OF THAT TEAM???

    Vince and TMAC played with guys like dell curry, chris childs, doug christie, antonio davis, Kevin Willis, Alvin williams and Charles Oakley.

    We were really a tough bruising team that could defend, and was well rounded, we just needed some more playoff experience together.

    These were more than formidable role players. We had leadership, a post presence on offense in AD, toughness, and most importantly, coach that played the best guys . For god sake, how good were the Raptors when VC was playing with a young Chris Bosh and the guys we had on that team? Did you guys ever LOOK at those rosters (2002-2005)??

    VC was never a savior. Just an amazing Dunker. We won ONE playoff series.

    My point is, there is no reason why this version of the Raptors cannot be just as successful (i.e. ONE playoff series win).
    But Gay and Derozan will not determine this, just as VC and TMAC never did either. They were parts of a whole.

    If we can trot out a starting lineup with a developed Jonas and a consistent Kyle Lowry, while taking the mish-mash of guys we have on the bench and turning them into a solid 4 man bench rotation, we might even be better than that team.

    The whole idea of a `franchise` savior is ridiculous.

    Maybe once a decade or so, a single player can turn a franchise into a winning team by JUST being on the team and making the other guys better. Even Kobe is not one of those guys. Lebron, Michael Jordan, Maybe KD, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan...these are the types of people you need to talk about and they are all in the top 20 who ever played.

    Let`s talk about reality. We were headed no where and turned around a guy mediocre guy like Jose into a great player in Gay. Derozan is more effective BECAUSE Gay is on the team.

    because of that trade and having Gay, there is a conceivable way where we can make the 4th or 5th seed next year and be a relevant team again.

    Anyone who thinks that Gay is not elevating this team to another level is crazy. Anyone who remembers Carter and McGrady as being franchise saviors, or putting the team on their back any more than Gay has already done is crazier.

    One playoff series win with Gay on the team and he has matched Carter. Doesn`t matter how nice some of those dunks were
    Couldn't agree anymore! Thier are few players that change a team by just being on it but those aren't the only teams that win every year. I love the way this franchise is going.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    FWIW, Vince (in his prime) was a top-5 player in this league. A legit franchise-altering superstar. Yes, the role players were very important, but those teams do nothing without Vince being Vince.

    That level of talent doesn't currently exist on today's rendition of the Raptors.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  5. #25
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Future looks bright. Rudy is the guy, still has potential to be MUCH better. Lowry, Derozan, Ross, Valanciunas, Amir moving forward looks great. Team will continue to build around with the experience, role players needed.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    FWIW, Vince (in his prime) was a top-5 player in this league. A legit franchise-altering superstar. Yes, the role players were very important, but those teams do nothing without Vince being Vince.

    That level of talent doesn't currently exist on today's rendition of the Raptors.

    i think we`re splitting hairs here. No one can argue that Gay is better today than Vince was then. No one can argue that if you put Gay on that team that it would have done better.

    BUT the idea that Vince was franchise altering only had to do with the way he brought attention to Toronto, not necessarily the changes he made to the win loss column, and ultimately our playoff success.

    At the end of the day, we only hold VC in high regard because he was the best player this team ever had. You take him out of our bubble and put him in the grand scope of the NBA, I would be shocked to see him make the Hall of Fame, and if he does, it will be his dunks which put him over the top, not his success
    At the end of the day all that matters are wins and losses. If Gay ends up being more successful with the Raptors in terms of wins and losses, it would be difficult to argue that he did not change the franchise the same way or more than Vince did, despite the fact that he had less talent.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    i think we`re splitting hairs here. No one can argue that Gay is better today than Vince was then. No one can argue that if you put Gay on that team that it would have done better.

    BUT the idea that Vince was franchise altering only had to do with the way he brought attention to Toronto, not necessarily the changes he made to the win loss column, and ultimately our playoff success.

    At the end of the day, we only hold VC in high regard because he was the best player this team ever had. You take him out of our bubble and put him in the grand scope of the NBA, I would be shocked to see him make the Hall of Fame, and if he does, it will be his dunks which put him over the top, not his success
    At the end of the day all that matters are wins and losses. If Gay ends up being more successful with the Raptors in terms of wins and losses, it would be difficult to argue that he did not change the franchise the same way or more than Vince did, despite the fact that he had less talent.
    I was only referring to Vince "in his prime", which in my opinion was just the 2 years from 2000-2002. Vince was among Shaq, Iverson and Kobe as one of the very best players in the league for those years. I think you're undervaluing just how good an individual basketball player Vince was....mind you, for a brief period.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  8. #28
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I was only referring to Vince "in his prime", which in my opinion was just the 2 years from 2000-2002. Vince was among Shaq, Iverson and Kobe as one of the very best players in the league for those years. I think you're undervaluing just how good an individual basketball player Vince was....mind you, for a brief period.
    I think you're right...i'll never forget that philly series when him and Iverson were exchanging 50 point games (and i don't know why that isn't talked about more often)

    But we never really won anything significant. So when people say that he was "franchise altering" it wasn't because we were that successful on the court.

    Rudy won't be a top 5 player, but the idea that him and derozan can be more effective than VC and Tmac (or whatever other SG he played with) is more than realistic when you put it into this perspective.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Yea, I think some of what happened afterwards is tarnishing what Vince really was in Raptor fans' eyes. This was an elite talent at that time, that unfortunately has been overshadowed and tarnished by what I can only describe as "bad vibes". That and him quitting on us. The thing about Rudy Gay is he's 27 years old which means he is hitting his prime but he hasn't accomplished even close to what Vince (or Kobe, Iverson) had done by their 7th season.

    You can talk all about how Gay maybe wasn't the centerpiece of Memphis in the way Carter was for the Raptors, but the advanced stats don't lie (cumulative stats over first 7 seasons):
                                                                      
    Player MP PER TS% eFG% TRB% AST% STL% ORtg DRtg WS
    Kobe Bryant 16826 22.2 .548 .481 8.2 22.2 2.2 110 103 62.8
    Vince Carter 17334 22.1 .531 .484 8.0 21.9 1.9 108 104 56.2
    Rudy Gay 17807 16.1 .524 .483 9.4 9.6 2.0 103 107 29.8
    Allen Iverson 20124 21.0 .507 .448 5.6 26.9 3.0 104 103 55.1

    I think Vince and Rudy have similar personalities.. not sure if that is a good or bad thing. But it does show we need to keep building.
    Last edited by ebrian; Fri Mar 1st, 2013 at 03:13 PM.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    I think you're right...i'll never forget that philly series when him and Iverson were exchanging 50 point games (and i don't know why that isn't talked about more often)

    But we never really won anything significant. So when people say that he was "franchise altering" it wasn't because we were that successful on the court.

    Rudy won't be a top 5 player, but the idea that him and derozan can be more effective than VC and Tmac (or whatever other SG he played with) is more than realistic when you put it into this perspective.
    I guess it depends on how one defines "franchise altering", but when you look at how the Raptors went from 16 wins in 1997-98 (the year before Carter's arrival) to a franchise-best 47 wins just 3 years later, that's a pretty big deal in my books.

    We were probably another legit star player away from really being title contenders (since McGrady hadn't established himself yet).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Just for fun, a comparison of first 4 years of careers of the two duos. So far, it's not even remotely close.

                                                                               
    Player G MP PER TS% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% USG% ORtg DRtg WS
    Vince Carter 267 10250 22.5 .535 8.2 19.4 1.9 2.1 29.6 111 105 36.7
    Tracy McGrady 269 7834 21.6 .514 11.7 19.7 2.0 3.6 25.9 107 103 24.1
    Rudy Gay 318 11223 15.6 .530 9.2 8.5 1.8 1.9 23.8 104 110 15.2
    DeMar DeRozan 280 8874 13.7 .524 6.6 9.2 1.4 0.8 22.9 105 112 11.4
    your pal,
    ebrian

  12. #32
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Just for fun, a comparison of first 4 years of careers of the two duos. So far, it's not even remotely close.

                                                                               
    Player G MP PER TS% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% USG% ORtg DRtg WS
    Vince Carter 267 10250 22.5 .535 8.2 19.4 1.9 2.1 29.6 111 105 36.7
    Tracy McGrady 269 7834 21.6 .514 11.7 19.7 2.0 3.6 25.9 107 103 24.1
    Rudy Gay 318 11223 15.6 .530 9.2 8.5 1.8 1.9 23.8 104 110 15.2
    DeMar DeRozan 280 8874 13.7 .524 6.6 9.2 1.4 0.8 22.9 105 112 11.4
    numbers don't lie (although comparing VC's first 4 years in the NBA to anyone on that list kind of does since he played in 4 years of college)

    But I get the gist. and putting Derozan up there is comical

    anyway, my point is just that Vince needed guys around him to play winning ball. Gay, even more so, is no different.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Rookie DeRozanJohnsonFan's Avatar
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    I love how we choose to remember the VC Tmac days....Don't people remember THE REST OF THAT TEAM???

    Vince and TMAC played with guys like dell curry, chris childs, doug christie, antonio davis, Kevin Willis, Alvin williams and Charles Oakley.
    Trust me, it hasn't been forgotten.....amazing talent back in the day. Past vs Present, past would definently serve present, gotta add Morris Peterson and Jerome Williams also.

  14. #34
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    Rudy Gay is a superstar and his talents cannot be denied, but one player can't change a whole franchise unless he has a decent supporting cast built around him (The rockets were pretty much build around harden or a scoring superstar = kevin martin and harden played the same position; the raptors meanwhile had to give up their 2 greatest strengths to make up for 1 weakness) or when the superstar is lebron james.

    I hate to bring it up but the Rudy gay trade is pretty much the nba version of the phil kessel trade, iMO

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Wait till next season. Everyone healthy everyone hungry No Bargnani better bench Raps will make some noise.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Wait till next season. Everyone healthy everyone hungry No Bargnani better bench Raps will make some noise.
    The most popular Raptor fan expression in March and April of each season ....no wait
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  18. #37
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Wait till next season. Everyone healthy everyone hungry No Bargnani better bench Raps will make some noise.
    I remember when i used to think that to... then we started the season 4 - 19

  19. #38
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    It is the most popular expression lol but we are in the middle of finally having a change around here (No Bargnani, no Calderon) Dont know whos Era it its but its finally something new so im excited.

  20. #39
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    It is the most popular expression lol but we are in the middle of finally having a change around here (No Bargnani, no Calderon) Dont know whos Era it its but its finally something new so im excited.
    I'm not sure how much use the roster change is without a change in coaching philosophy - that does not necessarily require a coaching change.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  21. #40
    Raptors Republic All-Star Hotshot's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    It is the most popular expression lol but we are in the middle of finally having a change around here (No Bargnani, no Calderon) Dont know whos Era it its but its finally something new so im excited.
    You know what era this reminds me?!

    Mike James = Kyle Lowry

    Jalen Rose = Rudy Gay.

    Neither era was very productive or promising and I really don't see those two players as long term solutions in Toronto. I would really like to see the Raptors trade those two for younger talent/picks this summer and fire Colangelo + Casey and ride the a new wave with JV into the future. Otherwise enjoy being stuck in mediocrity with no hope in the near future next season too.

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