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Thread: Dwane Casey on Bargnani/JV substitution

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    Raptors Republic Starter T.Dot's Avatar
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    Default Dwane Casey on Bargnani/JV substitution

    Last edited by T.Dot; Thu Feb 28th, 2013 at 05:15 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star iblastoff's Avatar
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    haha bargs and spacing!

    at least DC recognizes that AA is struggling offensively, despite putting him on constantly.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    This goes back to the theory of Bargnani vs. the reality of Bargnani.

    In theory Bargnani should be perfect as a sole big out there. He's a big dude so, theoretically, he should be able to rebound and protect the paint sufficiently and, theoretically, he causes the other team's big a difficult match-up on the other end cause he can play all over the floor. Theoretically.

    The problem is that the theory of Bargnani has never worked in reality. In reality, Bargnani simply isn't a good enough rebounder or defender to be your only big on the floor. It simply doesn't work. It isn't even a knock on Andrea. He simply plays better when he's paired with a physical big who can take pressure of him on the defensive end. We've seen this for 7 years.

    I had to laugh at the "frustrated with all the bigs". Jebus. How can you ever be frustrated with JV? Dude tries harder than anyone out there. He makes mistakes but, man, that's something. Same with Amir. Sure he has the odd poor game but the dude plays through injuries all the time and busts his ass. That whole comment is stupid. It's just stupid.

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    Raptors Republic Starter T.Dot's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    This goes back to the theory of Bargnani vs. the reality of Bargnani.

    In theory Bargnani should be perfect as a sole big out there. He's a big dude so, theoretically, he should be able to rebound and protect the paint sufficiently and, theoretically, he causes the other team's big a difficult match-up on the other end cause he can play all over the floor. Theoretically.

    The problem is that the theory of Bargnani has never worked in reality. In reality, Bargnani simply isn't a good enough rebounder or defender to be your only big on the floor. It simply doesn't work. It isn't even a knock on Andrea. He simply plays better when he's paired with a physical big who can take pressure of him on the defensive end. We've seen this for 7 years.

    I had to laugh at the "frustrated with all the bigs". Jebus. How can you ever be frustrated with JV? Dude tries harder than anyone out there. He makes mistakes but, man, that's something. Same with Amir. Sure he has the odd poor game but the dude plays through injuries all the time and busts his ass. That whole comment is stupid. It's just stupid.
    We've known for years that defense isn't his specialty. Casey just has to manage the substitutions effectively so it could work for everybody.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Aren't you tired of Casey playing safe every time? He does not take any responsobility for the losses, he is defending Bargnani when it's obvious he should stop doing that. He does not have balls to do that, to play someone else during crunch time, not because he may get criticized after doing so for not playing your one of most expensive assets but for not being a tough leader and showing that lack of effort does not deserve presence on the court. Of course he is coach and he has to support his guys, act professional etc. But enough is enough, I got tired of his interviews basically saying the same thing everytime and pouring from empty to botomless. You have to be tough otherwise you will not be respected eventually, players may hate you, some fans may, but look what current situation has led to. Lets take a look to examples of great coaches in Pop, McHale, Van Gundy, sure he got fired because management traded him for balless Dwight who betrayed the organization anyway, but they were a top playoff team, look at them now.

    2nd I was really unpleasantly surprised when he tried to protect Bargnani and threw under the bus JV and AJ. This was huge loss of respect for him from me as a fan. You cannot do that with guys who show effort and hustle and even do way better on nightly basis in order just to protect one soft human being for just him having talent and being tall. He is slacker, he does not have passion for his job, he is here to get the paycheck and rest. How can you discredit players who sacrifice all they got during those 48 minutes like that.
    Last edited by RandomGuy; Fri Mar 1st, 2013 at 06:12 AM.
    #FREE

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    Quote RandomGuy wrote: View Post
    Aren't you tired of Casey playing safe every time? He does not take any responsobility for the losses, he is defending Bargnani when it's obvious he should stop doing that. He does not have balls to do that, to play someone else during crunch time, not because he may get criticized after doing so for not playing your one of most expensive assets but for not being a tough leader and showing that lack of effort does not deserve presence on the court. Of course he is coach and he has to support his guys, act professional etc. But enough is enough, I got tired of his interviews basically saying the same thing everytime and pouring from empty to botomless. You have to be tough otherwise you will not be respected eventually, players may hate you, some fans may, but look what current situation has led to. Lets take a look to examples of great coaches in Pop, McHale, Van Gundy, sure he got fired because management traded him for balless Dwight who betrayed the organization anyway, but they were a top playoff team, look at them now.

    2nd I was really unpleasantly surprised when he tried to protect Bargnani and threw under the bus JV and AJ. This was huge loss of respect for him from me as a fan. You cannot do that with guys who show effort and hustle and even do way better on nightly basis in order just to protect one soft human being for just him having talent and being tall. He is slacker, he does not have passion for his job, he is here to get the paycheck and rest. How can you discredit players who sacrifice all they got during those 48 minutes like that.
    Great points. earlier in the season when we were like 3 - 10 i started a thread saying that Casey was the the main problem of the team with his coaching choices. Especially with his substitutions, and i got picked apart for my grammar instead of my point of view.

    Now everyone have seen more than their share. #fireCaseyAlready!!!!!!!!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I don't see any reason to fire the coach. You fire a coach for the following reasons:

    (a) The team is performing well below expectations and you've tried everything else and it's not getting any better.
    (b) He files a lawsuit against a former player for defamation of character.
    (c) He lies to his players about being in the Vietnam war.
    (d) Players have stopped listening and are tuning him out.

    None of these apply, although if he continues to use Bargnani the way he has, I can see D happening.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I don't see any reason to fire the coach. You fire a coach for the following reasons:

    (a) The team is performing well below expectations and you've tried everything else and it's not getting any better.
    (b) He files a lawsuit against a former player for defamation of character.
    (c) He lies to his players about being in the Vietnam war.
    (d) Players have stopped listening and are tuning him out.

    None of these apply, although if he continues to use Bargnani the way he has, I can see D happening.
    There is a legitimate option (e) that you forgot about: "To take the fall for the GM's mistakes"
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote RandomGuy wrote: View Post
    Aren't you tired of Casey playing safe every time? He does not take any responsobility for the losses, he is defending Bargnani when it's obvious he should stop doing that. He does not have balls to do that, to play someone else during crunch time, not because he may get criticized after doing so for not playing your one of most expensive assets but for not being a tough leader and showing that lack of effort does not deserve presence on the court. Of course he is coach and he has to support his guys, act professional etc. But enough is enough, I got tired of his interviews basically saying the same thing everytime and pouring from empty to botomless. You have to be tough otherwise you will not be respected eventually, players may hate you, some fans may, but look what current situation has led to. Lets take a look to examples of great coaches in Pop, McHale, Van Gundy, sure he got fired because management traded him for balless Dwight who betrayed the organization anyway, but they were a top playoff team, look at them now.

    2nd I was really unpleasantly surprised when he tried to protect Bargnani and threw under the bus JV and AJ. This was huge loss of respect for him from me as a fan. You cannot do that with guys who show effort and hustle and even do way better on nightly basis in order just to protect one soft human being for just him having talent and being tall. He is slacker, he does not have passion for his job, he is here to get the paycheck and rest. How can you discredit players who sacrifice all they got during those 48 minutes like that
    .

    Casey is clearly in a tough position.

    If he comes out to the media ala Stan Van Gundy and says Andrea sucks, he will basically kill any potential team who is considering the possibility of thinking about acquiring him at some point.

    At the same time, if he baby's him, the team will lose and he may lose his (actual) players' respect.

    In this case though, I think he is really out to lunch. He has no clue how to handle this.

    Bottom line, We all watched the game:

    - he puts bargs in for his putrid stint in the first half
    - chooses to put in Aaron Gray to spell JV in the third
    - Puts in bargs to play most of the 4th

    To me, putting in Gray in the 3rd sends a message to bargs and the team. He went out of the normal rotation to put in the 11th man over bargs.

    Then he sends a different message by having bargs play even MORE crucial minutes.

    THEN he comes out after to the media and tries to pawn it off as some sort of "I was trying to find someone who would just do the job"

    If I were JV or Amir I would be even more pissed off than I was before. (even Aaron gray should be pissed).

    Casey is in over his head on this, there's no question

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    There is a legitimate option (e) that you forgot about: "To take the fall for the GM's mistakes"
    Haha.. haven't we already lost two coaches this way? I'm not saying Triano and Mitchell were perfect, but it's not as if Colangelo has been making great moves over the past 7 years..
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    Casey is clearly in a tough position.

    If he comes out to the media ala Stan Van Gundy and says Andrea sucks, he will basically kill any potential team who is considering the possibility of thinking about acquiring him at some point.

    At the same time, if he baby's him, the team will lose and he may lose his (actual) players' respect.

    In this case though, I think he is really out to lunch. He has no clue how to handle this.

    Bottom line, We all watched the game:

    - he puts bargs in for his putrid stint in the first half
    - chooses to put in Aaron Gray to spell JV in the third
    - Puts in bargs to play most of the 4th

    To me, putting in Gray in the 3rd sends a message to bargs and the team. He went out of the normal rotation to put in the 11th man over bargs.

    Then he sends a different message by having bargs play even MORE crucial minutes.

    THEN he comes out after to the media and tries to pawn it off as some sort of "I was trying to find someone who would just do the job"

    If I were JV or Amir I would be even more pissed off than I was before. (even Aaron gray should be pissed).

    Casey is in over his head on this, there's no question
    +1000. You are alienating your performing players to try and up the value of a career under-performer???? This team makes no sense!! It's infuriating how many people can see this and it still continues. We're lucky we have strong character guys 'cause if we didn't shit would've hit the fan by now.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
    +1000. You are alienating your performing players to try and up the value of a career under-performer???? This team makes no sense!! It's infuriating how many people can see this and it still continues. We're lucky we have strong character guys 'cause if we didn't shit would've hit the fan by now.
    You raise an interesting point, here. We do have a locker room full of well-behaved, team-first, generally good guys.

    But I wonder how well the Bargnani-babying would've been received in any other locker room. I can't help but think the tolerance would not have lasted 7 years (and counting....).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter phez's Avatar
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    Casey is clearly in a tough position.

    If he comes out to the media ala Stan Van Gundy and says Andrea sucks, he will basically kill any potential team who is considering the possibility of thinking about acquiring him at some point.

    At the same time, if he baby's him, the team will lose and he may lose his (actual) players' respect.

    In this case though, I think he is really out to lunch. He has no clue how to handle this.

    Bottom line, We all watched the game:

    - he puts bargs in for his putrid stint in the first half
    - chooses to put in Aaron Gray to spell JV in the third
    - Puts in bargs to play most of the 4th

    To me, putting in Gray in the 3rd sends a message to bargs and the team. He went out of the normal rotation to put in the 11th man over bargs.

    Then he sends a different message by having bargs play even MORE crucial minutes.

    THEN he comes out after to the media and tries to pawn it off as some sort of "I was trying to find someone who would just do the job"

    If I were JV or Amir I would be even more pissed off than I was before. (even Aaron gray should be pissed).

    Casey is in over his head on this, there's no question
    teams already aware of how garbage bargs is, no one wants him, especially with his ridiculous contract. so in the end he (or colangelo) is just trying to save face from the embarrassment that is bargs. and in the end, its a lose lose situation for everybody.

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    Quote phez wrote: View Post
    teams already aware of how garbage bargs is, no one wants him, especially with his ridiculous contract. so in the end he (or colangelo) is just trying to save face from the embarrassment that is bargs. and in the end, its a lose lose situation for everybody.
    Sadly, yes. At this point, Darko Milicic > Bargnani

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    I'll just say that Dwane Casey has lost a lot of respect from me in the last few days....

    I'll also say he can get it back if he just starts delivering a consistent message for the rest of the season.

    Finally, I hope he doesn't get fired before BC does....BC has made the rosters and picked the last 2 coaches. Much more blame goes on him. I'm fine with Casey getting to stay next season with a clean slate and roster that should expect no change. I don't know how he fits long-term, but he's never actually coached a team with several talented players and few holes/weaknesses (I mean this especially defensively, where even now JV/Amir/Gay/Demar/Lowry have looked really impressive as a defensive unit).

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I'll just say that Dwane Casey has lost a lot of respect from me in the last few days....

    I'll also say he can get it back if he just starts delivering a consistent message for the rest of the season.

    Finally, I hope he doesn't get fired before BC does....BC has made the rosters and picked the last 2 coaches. Much more blame goes on him. I'm fine with Casey getting to stay next season with a clean slate and roster that should expect no change. I don't know how he fits long-term, but he's never actually coached a team with several talented players and few holes/weaknesses (I mean this especially defensively, where even now JV/Amir/Gay/Demar/Lowry have looked really impressive as a defensive unit).
    +1 definitely

    But why does anyone have to be fired? Why can`t we just run with what we`ve got for the next few years and see what happens?

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    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Quote T.Dot wrote: View Post
    We've known for years that defense isn't his specialty. Casey just has to manage the substitutions effectively so it could work for everybody.
    Yes, his substitutions have me perplexed at times. But in Bargnani's case, I think they were bang on.

    First Half
    When Andrea was not bringing it, Casey took him out - effectively benching AB. Good call on Casey's part. Total time (for Andrea) on the floor => 5:35 minutes.

    Second Half
    With 10:11 remaining in the 4th Quarter, AB subs in. Toronto goes from 11 point deficit [82-71], to down only one possession [93-90] - with less then 2 minutes to go. The last two minutes went like this:

    - Lowry jump shot (missed)
    - Lowry rebound
    - Rudy slam dunk (2 pts)
    - Rudy Hook shot (missed)
    - Bargnani Rebound
    - Derozan Turnover
    - Derozan lay-up (2 pts)
    - Derozan running jump shot (missed)
    - Lowry foul
    - Johnson replaces Anderson
    - Lowry 3 point shot (missed)
    - Rudy 3 point shot (missed)

    Rudy - 42:35 minutes
    Amir - 40:46
    Demar - 43:42
    Kyle - 33:41

    Granted, the Bench was awful ... but that's a lot of playing time.
    - First 46 minutes of play - Rudy/Amir/Demar/Kyle => .509 fg%
    - Final 2 minutes ---- .286

    By the end, our top Scorers had played TOO much, such that they didn't have much in the tank (at the end of the game). That goes to the Bench, which Andrea is a part of. But, that still doesn't justify "JV should have been there in the 4th Quarter". I think Casey is concerned about Jonas being affected by too much pressure - a concept other Coaches follow with Rookies as well.

    All that being said, Casey could have used Jonas in place of Amir, for a portion of the 4th Quarter. That would have given AJ some time to catch his breath, and be fresher in the 4th. Then again, the come-back appeared to be working, so what route is better?

    No come-back, no worrying about the finish. Make a come-back, but finish doesn't happen.

    .
    Last edited by RapthoseLeafs; Fri Mar 1st, 2013 at 02:44 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Bargs played 33 minutes and no rebounds. Is that even possible?
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Raptors Republic Starter T.Dot's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Bargs played 33 minutes and no rebounds. Is that even possible?
    It is...sort of. But besides that he didnt play too bad.

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    Quote T.Dot wrote: View Post
    It is...sort of. But besides that he didnt play too bad.
    It was a bad day to have 0 rebounds, against the best rebounding team in the league. Just saying.

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