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Thread: Is BC era coming to an end?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Babcock did not come from a franchise that had any winning culture (Minnesota).
    Pretty sure the fact that Minny did well in the KG era had something to do with it. They had those great teams for many years, including a revolving door of players around KG. Babcock hired before 2004 draft...Minnesota's win totals from 1999 until then....50, 47, 50, 51, 58....yeah, no winning culture there at all.

    As for the other guys, I just meant that they have not actually done a lot to be able to evaluate them positively. A GM can be said to be doing a good job when his team starts having sustained success...anything before that starts happening has to be taken with a grain of salt. It's nice to stockpile picks and flexibility, but it doesn't mean that those will yeild results. Based on results, I can't say any of those 3 GMs have really done anything to suggest they were quality hirings, largely because they haven't had enough time to make that judgment. But I feel like I can say that for Ujiri, who has traded away both Melo and Nene since going to Denver, has drafted well (I think Fournier and Miller are good depth picks for a stacked team, as they both have good potential, and obviously Faried was a great pick), and his team has not lost a step at all*.

    *In fact, I'd say his team has developed a better culture and style of play, while being stacked with good players who are also almost all tradable assets (in terms of not having loads of toxic contracts)

    **Maybe we shouldn't have let Ujiri go so easily...
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Mar 3rd, 2013 at 01:44 PM.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Pretty sure the fact that Minny did well in the KG era had something to do with it. They had those great teams for many years, including a revolving door of players around KG. Babcock hired before 2004 draft...Minnesota's win totals from 1999 until then....50, 47, 50, 51, 58....yeah, no winning culture there at all.

    As for the other guys, I just meant that they have not actually done a lot to be able to evaluate them positively. A GM can be said to be doing a good job when his team starts having sustained success...anything before that starts happening has to be taken with a grain of salt. It's nice to stockpile picks and flexibility, but it doesn't mean that those will yeild results. Based on results, I can't say any of those 3 GMs have really done anything to suggest they were quality hirings, largely because they haven't had enough time to make that judgment. But I feel like I can say that for Ujiri, who has traded away both Melo and Nene since going to Denver, has drafted well (I think Fournier and Miller are good depth picks for a stacked team, as they both have good potential, and obviously Faried was a great pick), and his team has not lost a step at all*.

    *In fact, I'd say his team has developed a better culture and style of play, while being stacked with good players who are also almost all tradable assets (in terms of not having loads of toxic contracts)
    Definitely forgot how many wins they had and the number of seasons. I stand corrected.

    Still not a fan of how the franchise was run. I don't think anyone would confused McHale for Presti or Buford.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  3. #23
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Definitely forgot how many wins they had and the number of seasons. I stand corrected.

    Still not a fan of how the franchise was run. I don't think anyone would confused McHale for Presti or Buford.
    No worries, I had to double check myself, because KG was there for so many dang years, and a fair amount of them were mediocre. They definitely weren't the best run franchise...but usually there are trends to follow what people perceive as best practice. At that time, a lot of teams were doing the "put a bunch of guys around one franchise talent" plan, including TO around Carter. It was a stupid strategy.

  4. #24
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    Change the GM. Change the coach. Change the players. Change the broadcasters. Change the culture.

    Who do they bring in that can build a winner? We aren't sure. That is a common theme throughout these pages.

    I'm voting for stability and patience. As disappointing as losing can be I still see light at the end of the tunnel.

  5. #25
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Except all those teams were knowingly heading into rebuilding type situations...Even Ujiri who pulled the miraculous Melo trade...was clearly hired because they could afford to give an unknown GM a shot, knowing the first move he'd have to make could have easily led into a rebuilding cycle.

    It is not great management to start a rebuilding cycle and get a couple of talented pieces in the draft...we'll see how all those teams look in a couple of years. Not saying they'll be bad, but that other than Ujiri, I'm not impressed by anything those other guys have done, and that they really haven't done anything to really test their mettle yet. We'll see if Hennigan can draft/acquire a franchise talent to replace Howard. We'll see if the guys in CLE and NOH put good teams around their young franchise players or if they also go into a mediocrity cycle.

    Getting an unknown is just that...unknown. That is also how we ended up with Rob Babcock. So I think rolling the dice when the team is set to compete for the playoffs is very risky, and that in such a situation if you have to make a change, you'd probably want someone with some kind of reliable track record.

    To be honest with all of you, Brian is the best man for the job. He has proven time and time again that he is more than capable of cleaning up his mistakes. He is a known name in the industry, and he has moved pieces lots of people on this site believed he would not be able to move. I say we stick with what we have and what we know. We have the right guy at the helm let him do his job.

    And for all the people who bang on Colangelo for all the failed efforts to put pieces around Bosh. Bosh was a good player but he wasn't great! Colangelo put pieces around Bosh, Bosh being selfish and wanting to get his numbers didn't utilize some of those pieces well. Bosh was never able to find Capono it was always TJ Ford, Bosh never wanted to play the inside out GAME. That is what great players do like Tim Duncan and make everyone around him better.

    Let Colangelo do his job, he is the right man for the Job. How do you think Demar got to play with the American select team and got better. Oh senior Colangelo runs USA basketball, makes sense, he has more connections than any other GM in this league. Let the man do what he needs to do, he is the right man for the job so stop trying to run him out of town. For all those people who talk about his drafting and say he is horrible you are retarded. Colangelo has drafted names like, Steve Nash, Amare Stoudamire, Joe Johnson, and another great point guard and current tripple double leader in the NBA Jason Kidd. The man knows what he is doing he is one of the only constants in the NBA, he rocks and we will be fine boys. This is the best man for the job like I said.

    Stop acting so scary guys, Bargani was the right pick at the time. The problem with Andrea is that he is to slow and methodical. Iliasova is better because he is the same thing as Bargani but quicker. Bargani's skill sets is what we need just in a quicker more physical body. Andrea was the insurance for Bosh, just didn't develop. In the NBA your buying off potential. Andrea's best years were when we had Jermaine O'neal here. JO, shot blocker and physical player. Think about practice, he probably motivated Andrea. He would slap weak ish out. Sometimes potential is not met so that is part of the business. But Colangelo has always talked about assets. Our drafts are finally starting to turn into assets, they weren't before. At least not any that any other GM wanted in the league. I like Ed Davis but with all dew respect Rudy Gay is BETTER than Ed Davis. Ed Davis may be better later, but we had a appreciating asset that someone wanted. We were able to flip that appreciating asset for a piece that is making our team better now. The Carlos Boozer deal would have put us into contention for a little while but the cost was to much. Lets see what this summer holds we are going in the right direction.

    And we are still building! Picking up pieces when building, that is something you do to make your team better. Colangelo hasn't gone off track with the plan or hasn't stop the building process by picking up/trading a piece so please stop saying that. This is part of building.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    @Canmanxl

    I can't tell exactly why you quoted me...but I agree. If there was teh possibility to replace BC with some kind of known quantity as a GM, it might be worth considering the change. In most cases, unknowns are given a shot when there are low/lowering expectations for a team. BC is a known right now, as is Stefanski as his assistant. That's why I said in another post I expect him to be extended, and we'll keep riding the BC roller-coaster (hopefully a peak coming up instead of this dip continuing).

    Although I also have to disagree about the team still building. They are in win-now mode, even if it's just in the sense of making the playoffs next year. They likely can't afford to accumulate more young, nba unproven assets. They will likely add experience, and if they add youth, I think it would likely be "proven" youth. Maybe make a run at Bledsoe if they don't see Lowry as the long-term PG (just as a random example, ignoring reality and likelihood...just some crap off the top of my head), who is still "unproven" as a starting PG, but definitely proven as an NBA level talent.

  7. #27
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Just my opinion but considering he was allowed to acquire Gay, I think he`ll get at-least one more year.
    That's kinda what I expect..

  8. #28
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Babcock did not come from a franchise that had any winning culture (Minnesota).

    I am surprised of the guys I listed you only have any praise for Ujiri.

    Demps made the trade for Vasquez, signed Anderson, got Lopez. Rivers seems to be a miss but even that is too early to tell. They have good financial situation with just anywhere from 33-42M committed for next season.

    Henningan has acquired 3 first round picks over the next 4 drafts. I think he certainly got good value for Dwight all things considered. Getting Tobias Harris was good. Also this is the first year in their rebuild, they have not even had a chance to get a high draft pick yet. For a team just starting a rebuild they are already ahead of the game.

    Wallace, in my opinion, takes the cake. I questioned the drafting of Waiters and Thompson but while still questionable they are no longer consensus 'bad' picks. They have upwards of 10 draft picks over the next 4 drafts. They have all sorts of financial flexibility. They have a franchise talent. I am very envious of Cleveland.
    Orlando got fleeced in the Dwight trade. No real cap relief and all their draft picks are likely to be late first rounders. You can't look at Dwight's poor performance this season and then say they got fair value in retrospect. All that matters is what his value was at the time.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote pcrombeen wrote: View Post
    Orlando got fleeced in the Dwight trade. No real cap relief and all their draft picks are likely to be late first rounders. You can't look at Dwight's poor performance this season and then say they got fair value in retrospect. All that matters is what his value was at the time.
    Orlando were handcuffed by a prima donna. Big difference than being fleeced. No one was giving up assets for a guy who could walk and taking on a max contract for an injury prone C (Lopez or Bynum) was pretty stupid too... as well as Humphries.

    Given their circumstances, 3 first round picks, 2 second round picks, Harkless, Vucevic, and Afflalo was a pretty good haul. McRoberts and Harrington are irrelevant.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #30
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    Quote pcrombeen wrote: View Post
    Orlando got fleeced in the Dwight trade. No real cap relief and all their draft picks are likely to be late first rounders. You can't look at Dwight's poor performance this season and then say they got fair value in retrospect. All that matters is what his value was at the time.
    Exactly, all that count was his value at the time. I don't think there was a much better deal out there, which you seem to imply (Brook Lopez max contract anyone?) and they got some young talented players plus some picks.

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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Will BC have same fate as Brian Burke or will he get one more year to see how the Rudy Gay trade works out?
    I think if he was going to get fired, it would've happened. His contract extension hasn't been picked up yet which, to me, says something. I think the club is waiting to see how this season plays out and will then evaluate the optics of keeping versus not renewing him.

  12. #32
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    Quote Canmanxl wrote: View Post
    To be honest with all of you, Brian is the best man for the job. He has proven time and time again that he is more than capable of cleaning up his mistakes. He is a known name in the industry, and he has moved pieces lots of people on this site believed he would not be able to move. I say we stick with what we have and what we know. We have the right guy at the helm let him do his job.
    Problem: He makes those mistakes in the first place. You get a couple freebies, but this guy's been consistently wrong in how his acquisitions will fit into the team, and the impact they have. To say that he cleans up well is setting the bar as lowest as possible for a GM. Every time he "cleans up", he sets the franchise back another year or two.

    What evidence do you have that he is currently respected in the league?

    Quote Canmanxl wrote: View Post
    And for all the people who bang on Colangelo for all the failed efforts to put pieces around Bosh. Bosh was a good player but he wasn't great! Colangelo put pieces around Bosh, Bosh being selfish and wanting to get his numbers didn't utilize some of those pieces well. Bosh was never able to find Capono it was always TJ Ford, Bosh never wanted to play the inside out GAME. That is what great players do like Tim Duncan and make everyone around him better.
    He is accountable for those years, not Bosh. It was pretty clear that Bosh was not a centerpiece, yet Colangelo treated him like one and wasted years and picks trying to build around him. Bosh being a "good" player was known to every one, except Colangelo who had delusions regarding Bosh's ability. His plays of JO and Turkoglu were jokes.

    Oh, BTW, did I mention he let him walk for free? Babcock got fired for less, at least he got multiple first-round picks fo


    Quote Canmanxl wrote: View Post
    Let Colangelo do his job, he is the right man for the Job. How do you think Demar got to play with the American select team and got better. Oh senior Colangelo runs USA basketball, makes sense, he has more connections than any other GM in this league. Let the man do what he needs to do, he is the right man for the job so stop trying to run him out of town. For all those people who talk about his drafting and say he is horrible you are retarded. Colangelo has drafted names like, Steve Nash, Amare Stoudamire, Joe Johnson, and another great point guard and current tripple double leader in the NBA Jason Kidd. The man knows what he is doing he is one of the only constants in the NBA, he rocks and we will be fine boys. This is the best man for the job like I said.
    What have you done for me lately? That's the question you have to ask of GMs. All those transactions you're mentioning happened when his dad was in Phoenix as well. You're actually supporting the popular argument that Colangelo is where he is because of his Dad by giving the USA basketball example. I think the reason he has any clout to begin with is because of his father.


    Quote Canmanxl wrote: View Post
    Stop acting so scary guys, Bargani was the right pick at the time. The problem with Andrea is that he is to slow and methodical. Iliasova is better because he is the same thing as Bargani but quicker. Bargani's skill sets is what we need just in a quicker more physical body. Andrea was the insurance for Bosh, just didn't develop. In the NBA your buying off potential. Andrea's best years were when we had Jermaine O'neal here. JO, shot blocker and physical player. Think about practice, he probably motivated Andrea. He would slap weak ish out. Sometimes potential is not met so that is part of the business. But Colangelo has always talked about assets. Our drafts are finally starting to turn into assets, they weren't before. At least not any that any other GM wanted in the league. I like Ed Davis but with all dew respect Rudy Gay is BETTER than Ed Davis. Ed Davis may be better later, but we had a appreciating asset that someone wanted. We were able to flip that appreciating asset for a piece that is making our team better now. The Carlos Boozer deal would have put us into contention for a little while but the cost was to much. Lets see what this summer holds we are going in the right direction.

    And we are still building! Picking up pieces when building, that is something you do to make your team better. Colangelo hasn't gone off track with the plan or hasn't stop the building process by picking up/trading a piece so please stop saying that. This is part of building.
    Bargnani has been cajoled by this franchise way too much, including his playing time being dictated from the front office, which should never happen. Sam Mitchell tried to cut his playing time and turn him into a bench player and got fired for it. I don't even have a problem with Bargnani as a pick, it's how we've gone about babying him that bothers me. A big part of the reason why he's such as sissy is because of how he has been managed by Colangelo.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    I think if he was going to get fired, it would've happened. His contract extension hasn't been picked up yet which, to me, says something. I think the club is waiting to see how this season plays out and will then evaluate the optics of keeping versus not renewing him.
    I think that if they like the direction wholeheartedly, he would've been picked up already. In my opinion, he's gone. This team may not even finish 10th at this point. I just think that this franchise deserves a different voice at the helm. What's Einstein's definition of insanity again?
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  14. #34
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    I really hope he's gone. Bring in a young, creative mind who can look at the roster with unbiased eyes and make necessary changes.

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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    I really hope he's gone. Bring in a young, creative mind who can look at the roster with unbiased eyes and make necessary changes.
    I hope he's gone after the season. I think we can all admit that he made a mistake in the draft when he should've picked Andre Drummond as he and JV would give us a dominant front court for years to come. Instead he picks Ross (who cant even get playing time and looks lost out there).

    Andrea Bargnani is the BIGGEST issue i have with BC. I dont like the coddling, the BIG contract and the constant excuses. I dont trust BC to trade bargs (7 years with this bum?? - is a joke).

    Rogers/Bell/MLSE - PLEASE DO NOT pick up BC's 3rd year option!!!

  16. #36
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    I'd love to see us go full-geek.

    We should fire BC and Casey and hire 20 computer nerds for the same money. Get 10 of the nerds to write a neural-network model that analyzes all data on draft picks and trades for the past 20 years and spits out suggested actions and yes/no answers to trade proposals from other GMs. Similarly, get the other team of 10 nerds to write a coaching program that makes all in-game management decisions based on current time and game situation, match-ups and schedule. Get IBM to co-sponsor it and call it "Deep Blue GM" and "Deep Blue Coach".

  17. #37
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Babcock did not come from a franchise that had any winning culture (Minnesota).

    I am surprised of the guys I listed you only have any praise for Ujiri.

    Demps made the trade for Vasquez, signed Anderson, got Lopez. Rivers seems to be a miss but even that is too early to tell. They have good financial situation with just anywhere from 33-42M committed for next season.

    Henningan has acquired 3 first round picks over the next 4 drafts. I think he certainly got good value for Dwight all things considered. Getting Tobias Harris was good. Also this is the first year in their rebuild, they have not even had a chance to get a high draft pick yet. For a team just starting a rebuild they are already ahead of the game.

    Wallace, in my opinion, takes the cake. I questioned the drafting of Waiters and Thompson but while still questionable they are no longer consensus 'bad' picks. They have upwards of 10 draft picks over the next 4 drafts. They have all sorts of financial flexibility. They have a franchise talent. I am very envious of Cleveland.
    Cleveland is an excellent example.

    Lebron and Bosh left at the same time. The Cavs went true rebuild while BC continued to fly by the seat of his pants.

    Raps have more wins than Cleveland thid year but their future has tremendous upside. The Raps.........not so much.

    BC hasn't accomplished anything, and has clearly shown a general lack of a clear direction with this team. In a normal world he probably isn't the GM of this team as we speak.

  18. #38
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I think that if they like the direction wholeheartedly, he would've been picked up already. In my opinion, he's gone. This team may not even finish 10th at this point. I just think that this franchise deserves a different voice at the helm. What's Einstein's definition of insanity again?
    I wouldn't say he's gone and I wouldn't say he's staying either but by not picking up his final option year MLSE is playing safe. They're waiting 'til the last minute to be absolutely sure. Who wouldn't?
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  19. #39
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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    Change the GM. Change the coach. Change the players. Change the broadcasters. Change the culture.

    Who do they bring in that can build a winner? We aren't sure. That is a common theme throughout these pages.

    I'm voting for stability and patience. As disappointing as losing can be I still see light at the end of the tunnel.
    The problem is that if you want stability and patience Colangelo isn't your man. Look at the turnover this team has had since he came in. Every year over half the roster changes. He fired his best coach (statistically at least) when Mitchell had the team a game below .500 basketball. He trades players who want to be here for nothing (Barbosa, Bayless, etc) He adds draft picks to trades that make no sense (and a 2nd round pick to you!). He bids against himself for his own players. He signs players like Hedo!... "Ball!"

    Does that sound stable to you? Has Colangelo ever made you feel that the team is on stable ground? This is the perfect time to move on. The Raps have a "star" player for another two years, and a handful of solid pieces. They also have reasonable trade bait (Bargs, Kleiza, JL3, one of Ross/DD?) Find a President who comes from a stable winning team, split the GM job and put in someone younger who actually respects analytics, and historical trends-- maybe a Morey, or Masai type. Have them assess everyone from coach to player. The last person I want making these decisions is BC.

    As the Leafs have proven, they may not even have to look outside their own organization. If they promote the right people from within that may be better than a league wide search economically. But for not trading Bargs when he had value? And a long list of other atrocities BC should have been let go A LONG TIME AGO.

  20. #40
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    I say give the keys to Phil Jackson.. let him be president and hire his own GM. He wants to run his own team, so why not Toronto?

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