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Thread: The "future" is about building around Gay

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Are you crazy??? I would trade Ross JUST to get rid of Bargnani! Lets be HONEST here..... Who here wanted Ross over Barnes or Lillard or Drummond????

    Raptor Fans fall in love with our players tooo easily. If Ross was as good as you thought he was - Why can't he find time on the court?? Do you realize that we're like 15 games below .500?

    I want Ross to turn into a perennial all-star too! BUT Im not willing to wait 7 years like we did for bargnani! Ross NEEDS a whole lot of improving to do! I really hope he does BUT I would trade him faster than I would trade JV OR DD if it could bring us back something good (in a package).

    Keep in mind we still have fields, DD and Rudy to make up for the loss of Ross.
    First bold: Only Drummond was available, so that's stupid, that's like being upset that we drafted Demar instead of Harden. I would never take Drummond, thinking from draft perspective, considering JV was coming in. I think JV has much more skill, but Drummond has much more athleticism. As a long term investment, I'll take skill over athleticism. Drummond also had some character questions in the draft, so I'm sure when you add that, it was a non-starter to management, as it should've been given the other holes on this team at the time. Ross was still the best wing available at their pick, and there were not other PGs behind Lillard available. I suppose you could argue they should've drafted a PF, but with Bargs, Amir and Ed, that would be very difficult to do.*(and oh wait, they did, Acy)

    Second bold: Raptors fans also can have "grass is greener on the other side" syndrome. Everyone is always the right fit until things fall apart. Every PG we brought in against Jose was "more talented' until they couldn't win the starting job because they obviously weren't. People getting overexcited by acquisitions like Fred Jones and Juan Dixon.....Seriously...Ross is a young high potential player on a rookie scale contract. It is a gigantic gamble to trade him away unless you are getting an all-star player (not a borderline one, a genuine one).

    Finally: Who says it would take 7 years? It's only been a few months fer chrissake...even perennial all-stars don't always show it in their rookie year. Have some patience. He has boatloads of athleticisim and more skill than Demar had as a rookie, so I'd give him some time. Unless we're getting an all-star who still produces, it is really risky and absurd, IMO, to trade Ross.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Mar 3rd, 2013 at 07:41 PM.

  2. #22
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    first off, no one is going to give up a young talented PF prospect, for an underperforming bargnani and his overpaid contract.

    Secondly, you suggest: "Terrence Ross needs to be packaged along with our expiring for a backup SG, someone in the mold of Reddick who can hit open jumpers or beyond the arc." dafuq? isn't terrence ross that player to begin with?

    thirdly, it is way to early to categorize what valanciunas's celing is. (sabonis gortat ilgauskas, all white but different style of player)

  3. #23
    Administrator Arsenalist's Avatar
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    Quote Red and White wrote: View Post
    Id take James Harden and a second round draft pick.

    In seriousness, I do not understand why some consider Amir to be untouchable. The whole point of someone being "untouchable" is that they would be very difficult, if not impossible, to replace. Guys like Lowry (who the team shopped at one point of this season), Amir, and to some extent Demar (even though I like him and Gay together), are all "touchable".

    JV, Ross and Gay are the only ones I would deem untouchable, but that does not mean all the other guys I want to trade.
    Oh man, James Harden. I actually LOL'd and my kid said, "Daddy, why are you laughing, did you read something totally unreasonable on the internet?".

    If you don't rate Amir or Ross, why do you think Houston would? And to top it off they'll give you their prized free-agent signing who is widely considered to be a max-player back in return.

    Trading Amir makes zero sense. He's one of the most consistent players on the team, if not the. I agree he's not a starter but he's a productive NBA player who has learned how to play consistently, which is the biggest step one can take. He is known quantity who you can rely on. That, and he's got a reasonable contract given what the going rates are. You don't trade a guy like that.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Are you crazy??? I would trade Ross JUST to get rid of Bargnani! Lets be HONEST here..... Who here wanted Ross over Barnes or Lillard or Drummond????

    Raptor Fans fall in love with our players tooo easily. If Ross was as good as you thought he was - Why can't he find time on the court?? Do you realize that we're like 15 games below .500?

    I want Ross to turn into a perennial all-star too! BUT Im not willing to wait 7 years like we did for bargnani! Ross NEEDS a whole lot of improving to do! I really hope he does BUT I would trade him faster than I would trade JV OR DD if it could bring us back something good (in a package).

    Keep in mind we still have fields, DD and Rudy to make up for the loss of Ross.
    I wanted him over Drummond not Lillard or Barnes i'll admit that. Btw the reason Ross isn't getting time is the same reason Valanciunas isn't, Dwane Casey thinks we still have a chance at the playoffs.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post

    Finally: Who says it would take 7 years?
    It takes three years for a player to tap the majority of their potential; take a look at almost any player's career stats and you'll see. After that, it's mostly incremental improvement.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    First bold: Only Drummond was available, so that's stupid, that's like being upset that we drafted Demar instead of Harden. I would never take Drummond, thinking from draft perspective, considering JV was coming in. I think JV has much more skill, but Drummond has much more athleticism. As a long term investment, I'll take skill over athleticism. Drummond also had some character questions in the draft, so I'm sure when you add that, it was a non-starter to management, as it should've been given the other holes on this team at the time. Ross was still the best wing available at their pick, and there were not other PGs behind Lillard available. I suppose you could argue they should've drafted a PF, but with Bargs, Amir and Ed, that would be very difficult to do.*(and oh wait, they did, Acy)

    Second bold: Raptors fans also can have "grass is greener on the other side" syndrome. Everyone is always the right fit until things fall apart. Every PG we brought in against Jose was "more talented' until they couldn't win the starting job because they obviously weren't. People getting overexcited by acquisitions like Fred Jones and Juan Dixon.....Seriously...Ross is a young high potential player on a rookie scale contract. It is a gigantic gamble to trade him away unless you are getting an all-star player (not a borderline one, a genuine one).

    Finally: Who says it would take 7 years? It's only been a few months fer chrissake...even perennial all-stars don't always show it in their rookie year. Have some patience. He has boatloads of athleticisim and more skill than Demar had as a rookie, so I'd give him some time. Unless we're getting an all-star who still produces, it is really risky and absurd, IMO, to trade Ross.
    FYI - I wasn't REALLY serious when i said 7 years...

    Also FYI - I meant pre-draft we were ALL hoping Lillard or Barnes would fall to us.

    We could've had BOTH JV & Drummond (they werent even in the same draft so why did we need to pick between the two??)

    Hindsight...... losing ED would've had a lesser impact on the team. We wouldnt need to draft Acy (who rarely plays and is undersized for the PF/C position)

    The point is.......who here wanted T Ross BEFORE we picked him???? (heard it was a reach).......Does anyone else here think a top 8 pick should be getting DNPs for a team 15 games below .500??

    I just think this organization has issues from top to bottom. I would LOVE to see Ross and JV play BIG minutes from here on out. I really want to see what they can do. I would LOVE to see AB & AA stay on the bench from here on out. However, I guess I just need to see more from Ross before I personally include him in the untouchables.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Wow a tenforthewin thread that went at least two pages.. pretty incredible!

    As for trading Ross.. it's too early. The Raptors need some kind of hope especially since their flexibility has been flushed away. You can't give up a rookie scaled contract that has upside for a veteran unless that veteran is a sure thing.. and now a days most teams are not going to give up their sure thing unless that player wants to be moved.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    I think a realistic comparison for T Ross is Allan Houston. But i'd say he has more potential than that because of his almost elite level(if not elite) athleticism.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    FYI - I wasn't REALLY serious when i said 7 years...

    Also FYI - I meant pre-draft we were ALL hoping Lillard or Barnes would fall to us.

    We could've had BOTH JV & Drummond (they werent even in the same draft so why did we need to pick between the two??)

    Hindsight...... losing ED would've had a lesser impact on the team. We wouldnt need to draft Acy (who rarely plays and is undersized for the PF/C position)

    The point is.......who here wanted T Ross BEFORE we picked him???? (heard it was a reach).......Does anyone else here think a top 8 pick should be getting DNPs for a team 15 games below .500??

    I just think this organization has issues from top to bottom. I would LOVE to see Ross and JV play BIG minutes from here on out. I really want to see what they can do. I would LOVE to see AB & AA stay on the bench from here on out. However, I guess I just need to see more from Ross before I personally include him in the untouchables.
    Well, FYI I wanted Ross very badly, I just thought they would trade down and be able to get him a few picks lower. He also may have not been available if they tried, so that's fine. I figured from our draft position there was a 0% chance of anyone sliding to us. I think Portland had a public promise to take Lillard if he was available. GSW also only had a hole at SF going into the season. I honestly thought the pick would end up getting traded, but I'm glad it wasn't since it probably would've been for Lowry and we got him anyway.

    I don't think Drummond and JV could coexist since neither makes a great PF. They should've only picked him if they knew they would want to trade him (or JV, but I'd rather keep JV), and they knew he would be this good. He's very raw in skill level and had character questions coming out. I'm sure if JV wasn't on the roster, they would've rolled the dice, but given the fact that going into the offseason the wing position was brutally weak, and Ross has shooting talent, it seemed like a great fit.

  10. #30
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    I think we need to take a page out of Indiana's book with Ross. Look and Paul George and look what he is now. Will that happen with Ross who knows but there's nothing wrong with letting him develop and not giving him minutes. He can develop from the bench until he PROVES that he deserves to start. With that being said... the dude needs some minutes... we at least needs to see what he's got and also show him the things to work on... my biggest pet peeve is he leaves his feet on shooters way too often and thats something small and stupid he needs to stop and im sure drives casey mental.

    Just to be clear he needs minutes.. but if he wants extended minutes he needs to earn them... (less so now that we're outta hunt basically.) But he can develop into a star if he puts in the work. If the dude inherits demars work ethic he will be an all-star.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Burnit482 wrote: View Post
    I think we need to take a page out of Indiana's book with Ross. Look and Paul George and look what he is now. Will that happen with Ross who knows but there's nothing wrong with letting him develop and not giving him minutes. He can develop from the bench until he PROVES that he deserves to start. With that being said... the dude needs some minutes... we at least needs to see what he's got and also show him the things to work on... my biggest pet peeve is he leaves his feet on shooters way too often and thats something small and stupid he needs to stop and im sure drives casey mental.

    Just to be clear he needs minutes.. but if he wants extended minutes he needs to earn them... (less so now that we're outta hunt basically.) But he can develop into a star if he puts in the work. If the dude inherits demars work ethic he will be an all-star.
    I agree with him needing to earn real minutes....but I think a couple 4-5 minute stints every night coming in for Demar (or Gay if the matchup is ok), as the first wing sub each half, and so he can play with some starters as well for some time. I think if you put him in from the 6 or 7 minute mark at the 1st and 3rd quarters...pull him at 9 or 10 if he's making mistakes, let him at least play out the quarter if he's not, and let him play into the next quarter if he's excelling. I don't know why that logic seems so costly to Casey...I really wish I knew, because his playing AA as a 6th man is killing me a little every game.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    I think its really obvious that T ross nees more minutes. I think now that we are out of the hunt for the playoffs, we are going to see a steady increase in them. T Ross has the potential to be a unique talent and very effective for this team. His skill set compliments what we have very well and we need him to now be able to be effective with that skill set. I agree with the idea that if he works hard enough, he is all-star material.

    I want Demar - Gay - Ross to be feared across the league one day..

    With Lowry and JV (the one with the highest potential) developing further in the flanks, we could be a very interesting team given more time.
    I think we are missing that one big piece to push it over the edge, lock them all up and see what happens.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    The only untouchables on this team are Gay and JV. That's it.

    You all know what i think of Lowry(see the Lowry thread). Ross is all potential. But i do think though that his skillset is a much better fit on this team than DeRozan just because he can shoot and is a much better defender. Question is, how much he wants it?

    DeRozan on the other hand is overrated. The guy struggles and shit the bed whenever the team needed him the most. Last night's game was a great example. He also always disappear whenever the Raps play a tough physical defensive team. Play him physical and i guarantee DeRozan will struggle.

    If/when the Raps make the playoffs next year. I guarantee DeRozan will be a non factor because playoff basketball is tough basketball.
    What you're saying is DD isn't perfect. He's not an All-Star but he is much better than I thought he was going to be and that's a testament to his hard work. I think he can be an excellent piece next to Gay. Every season he improves something. He's also starting to get the respect of the officials now. I remember when this started happening for Bosh to the point where he would get a call virtually every time he took the ball to the rack. That's an invaluable piece to have on your team for playoffs and for physical teams. As for him not being clutch, he did hit a rather tough game winner this year and this team has never really been 'his'. He's always been in the shadow of someone else in late game situations. You can see him starting to be vocal late in games and leading. That took time but it's also improving.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

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  14. #34
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Wow, you'd give up a pick and Ross for a guy who's never made an all-star game....I don't know how you judge talent then. Millsap is not exactly going to bust out more than he has. Talk about overrating talent. You'll trade away Ross, who you can't failry judge with the sporadic playing time, is much younger and does have all-star potential (he's at least as athletic and more skilled than Demar was as a rookie, and Demar's tured out pretty well) for a guy who has never made an all-star appearance and turns 29 next season (and who will also possibly have a long, costly contract). I would happily take Millsap, but Demar and Ross are off the table.

    *I don't understand how some people can become so impatient so quickly with young, high potential players, even if that does just turn out to be a valuable bench piece. It takes at least 2-3 seasons before judging someone's ceiling starts becoming easier.
    Millsap is a guy who can be an impact player for a team now and the future. I don't care what he has/hasn't done in the all-star game (like Rudy Gay, he's been snubbed). That's why. We have Derozan at the shooting guard, and if Coach Casey doesn't end up playing him [Ross] at all, why let talent rot on the bench, when we can trade him for a player that'll play and make an impact? I don't care what his potential is, like I said for Derozan, only for the right price. Terrence Ross is NOT going to net us a perennial all-star, some posters on here talking about overrating talent, well everyone is clearly overrating Ross' potential. The guy was drafted as a shooter, but known in the NBA as a freak athlete.

    I'm not impatient, I never said I would expect him to break out. I just think if he's not going to play now and anytime soon, his value is best on this team as a trade asset. Once he starts to get some sample playing time, we can go back and re-judge, but right now, it seems hard for Ross to break the rotation with Derozan/Gay/Fields, plus Casey's love for playing the veterans. If BC's 3rd year is picked up, expect veterans.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
    What you're saying is DD isn't perfect. He's not an All-Star but he is much better than I thought he was going to be and that's a testament to his hard work. I think he can be an excellent piece next to Gay. Every season he improves something. He's also starting to get the respect of the officials now. I remember when this started happening for Bosh to the point where he would get a call virtually every time he took the ball to the rack. That's an invaluable piece to have on your team for playoffs and for physical teams. As for him not being clutch, he did hit a rather tough game winner this year and this team has never really been 'his'. He's always been in the shadow of someone else in late game situations. You can see him starting to be vocal late in games and leading. That took time but it's also improving.
    He came into the draft with high potential. Ross came into his draft with scouts questioning his potential. I just don't see Ross being more than a good role player, or a solid starter.

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Rookie DeRozanJohnsonFan's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    I think its really obvious that T ross nees more minutes. I think now that we are out of the hunt for the playoffs, we are going to see a steady increase in them. T Ross has the potential to be a unique talent and very effective for this team. His skill set compliments what we have very well and we need him to now be able to be effective with that skill set. I agree with the idea that if he works hard enough, he is all-star material.

    I want Demar - Gay - Ross to be feared across the league one day..

    With Lowry and JV (the one with the highest potential) developing further in the flanks, we could be a very interesting team given more time.
    I think we are missing that one big piece to push it over the edge, lock them all up and see what happens.
    Terrence Ross needs to put the required work to be at the very least a solid contributor of the bench, no doubt that he has the potential to make things happen, will see during the off-season/pre-season for 2013-2014 how it's working for him.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Oh man, James Harden. I actually LOL'd and my kid said, "Daddy, why are you laughing, did you read something totally unreasonable on the internet?".

    If you don't rate Amir or Ross, why do you think Houston would? And to top it off they'll give you their prized free-agent signing who is widely considered to be a max-player back in return.

    Trading Amir makes zero sense. He's one of the most consistent players on the team, if not the. I agree he's not a starter but he's a productive NBA player who has learned how to play consistently, which is the biggest step one can take. He is known quantity who you can rely on. That, and he's got a reasonable contract given what the going rates are. You don't trade a guy like that.
    Ahahaha just to clarify, when I said trade for "James Harden and a second round pick", that was mocking sarcasm (it is a tenforthewin thread, after all). Man my sarcasm needs work. I feel like people value Ross a little too highly.

    I still do not understand why trading Amir makes "zero sense". I mean, he is one of my favourite players on the team with his consistent effort, improvement, and love for the city, but this team should be thinking about taking any deal that makes them better. You can call a guy "untouchable" when the team is winning and he is a big part of that (or if he has the ability to be that kind of guy), but this team, to me, is far from that point. Why wouldn't you trade a guy when he is valued pretty damn highly, like I think Amir is, to improve the team? I am not saying everyone should be on the trade block, but come on, we are going to have to give guys away (like DD or Amir) to get back other pieces.

    Am I missing something? I feel like deeming all these guys as untradeable is not the way we should be thinking about this team right now. It sure is a very interesting conversation though.
    Last edited by Red and White; Mon Mar 4th, 2013 at 06:48 AM. Reason: clarification

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Well, FYI I wanted Ross very badly, I just thought they would trade down and be able to get him a few picks lower. He also may have not been available if they tried, so that's fine. I figured from our draft position there was a 0% chance of anyone sliding to us. I think Portland had a public promise to take Lillard if he was available. GSW also only had a hole at SF going into the season. I honestly thought the pick would end up getting traded, but I'm glad it wasn't since it probably would've been for Lowry and we got him anyway.

    I don't think Drummond and JV could coexist since neither makes a great PF. They should've only picked him if they knew they would want to trade him (or JV, but I'd rather keep JV), and they knew he would be this good. He's very raw in skill level and had character questions coming out. I'm sure if JV wasn't on the roster, they would've rolled the dice, but given the fact that going into the offseason the wing position was brutally weak, and Ross has shooting talent, it seemed like a great fit.
    First bold - I think you were one of the VERY FEW posters that wanted Ross to begin with.....I scarely remember his name being mentioned on here much BEFORE being drafted.

    Second bold - Don't you think its a bit early to judge either player?? I'm not saying that either will be a GREAT PF, but I think Drummond >>>> Acy and Ross was not even in the top 10 on most boards (hence why most thought he was a reach).

    I just think that it is also too early to judge Ross and that he is over-valued by a lot of Raptor fans (untouchable??). I may regret this later, but i would be willing to trade him in a package for a good piece. We already have DD, Gay and Fields...I would hate for him to rot on the bench. However, if he starts to show the all-star potential that MANY on here insist he can be.....I would be happy to move him into the untouchables category.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Drummond <<<<< Ross.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  20. #40
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Once the Raptors are out of the playoff picture (really all season, but I've long since given up on Casey and rebuilding ever being synonymous) I hope that both Valanciunas and Ross are spoon-fed all the minutes they can handle. I expect both of them to make significant improvements next season, while also playing a larger role on this team.

    If I were BC, I'd be targeting Millsap in the offseason, to be my 'big splash'. It would require a S&T with Utah to make it happen - based on salary balancing and team needs (both Utah & Toronto), a DeRozan for Millsap trade would seem to make a lot of sense. A Bargnani for Millsap trade is a Toronto pipe-dream, without a 3rd team being involved (much more unlikely).

    The second move needs to be trading Bargnani for anything positive/useful that doesn't hurt the team's financial flexibility any more than Bargnani currently does (ie: not Boozer).

    The third move is to amnesty Kleiza, assuming he uses his player option.


    Those moves would leave the Raptors with a very good, young team:
    C: Valanciunas, Gray (expiring)*
    PF: Millsap, Johnson, Acy
    SF: Gay, Anderson*
    SG: Fields, Ross
    PG: Lowry, Lucas (expiring)*

    * assume the player's option is picked-up (Gray-player & Lucas-team) or is re-signed (Anderson)


    The team's biggest needs for the next couple seasons would be (assuming none are addressed by a Bargnani trade):
    - veteran backup PG, ideally a pass-first facilitator to get the most out of the team's 2nd unit (Calderon?)
    - veteran backup C to replace Gray
    - a 4th wing to eventually replace Anderson
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Mar 4th, 2013 at 06:05 PM.

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