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Chisholm sums up reality of any Rudy Gay deal

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  • #16
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If Ross is not involved, I go after Rudy. Reasons:

    1) The talent is there.
    2) Just 26 years old. Get McKechnie devising plan for his shoulder, return to 2010-11 form.
    3) It has been reported he wants out of MEM for a long time. Only signed extension because, well, would you turn down $80M?
    4) Change of scenery should do him good (Bargnani is to Toronto as Rudy is to Memphis).
    5) 6'8" SF with 7'2" wingspan.
    6) Can Casey get him to buy in? I think so.
    7) Lowry and Gay best-ies.
    8) Cap space and flexibility has done what for Toronto in last 3 years? Contract be damned.
    9) If DeRozan was included in trade, they have enough cap space to go after and talent to entice a FA PF like Paul Millsap this summer.
    10) If DD is not included and assuming ED is, sending out another $2.5M in the trade off next year (Gray?), amnestying Kleiza, and a bump in the salary cap as expected should lead to enough cap space to make a run at a FA PF like Paul Millsap.

    *Both 9 and 10 assume Bargnani is gone.


    In a nutshell if a combination of Calderon/ED/possibly DD/2nd round picks gets you Gay, you do it (obviously a 3rd or 4th team is going to need to be brought in).
    1) Ok, I don't even really know what that means exactly. You could say the same about Bargs, and most want him gone. You could say the same about Michael Beasley even...
    2) 26 is not that young for someone who hasn't expanded his game since his 2nd year, who isn't a great shooter, and who's only going to start getting less athletic.
    3) Ok, he wants out of Memphis, and it's not his fault they misvalued his contract, but why does that make it ok to take on an overvalued contract?
    4) Gay is to Memphis as Bargnani is to Toronto....Underachieving. Overpaid. Disinterested. One-dimensional. I don't know if there's a better reason to not trade for him.
    5) Ok, he has good size. Can't hate him for that. Maybe we should just re-sign Dominic McGuire and work really hard at teaching him to shoot a jumper. And Gay doesn't really use it to his advantage...again, much like Bargs.
    6) Can Casey get him to buy in ? Probably for at least 13 games....
    7) Lowry and Gay Best-ies....This is not an argument to make a move to attempt to improve a basketball team. Lowry is also friends with Anderson. Demar is pretty close now with everyone on the team, including Amir and Ed, if one were to be traded. Chemistry is not remotely an issue, and friendship off the court does not necessarily translate to success on the court.
    8) Flexibility isn't just capspace. The draft is where you get talented players, like JV, Demar and Ross. I see no reason to sacrifice not only capspace, but the possibility of improving through drafting, or using such picks as assets in trades to address real needs at the right time. Rudy Gay addresses zero needs (especially if Demar is included), unless you believe a starting SF has to be at least 6'8".
    9) and 10) I have one main concern: you assume not only Bargnani is gone, but that we will not be taking any money back, so he's traded for only expiring deals or just amnestied???? I'm really just asking. If not, wouldn't more need to be shed to give that kind of offer to Millsap? And in general, if Bargnani's contract value is totally gone somehow, and Demar gives you much the same if not more than Gay at less money, that provides much more flexibility.

    In the end I still don't see the merit of this deal in any way that would work for Memphis or really makes sense for us. I kept trying to think of a way I'd be willing to do it. And in theory there are pieces I'd give up. Obviously spare parts like LK, Gray, Acy, Lucas are all in play. Jose is in there too with his contract and value. Maybe Anderson too. I'd have a really hard time giving up Ed with his play and youth. Don't think Memphis would want Amir, even at decent value, if their motivations are mainly financial. Basically I'd be ok with getting Gay if we totally fleeced Memphis...like Jose, Kleiza and Anderson...I'd do that in a heartbeat.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:06 AM.

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    • #17
      You guys are funny only on RR can people be upset at BC for drafting mediocre talent and above average bench players then be ready to run the guy out of town when he is trying to turn are scraps to get a LEGIT talent please people come to your senses Gay is better then anybody on the Raptors roster...period 0.o

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      • #18
        +1 what Matt52 said..

        Stop overrating Ed we'll get over it. Cap Space alway just gets wasted in toronto..look what it's got us so far...Bargs/Demar/Fields are our recent signings ..thank you i'll take my chances with the 26 year old freak of nature. With Casey at the helm, he'll start playing D and hopefuly we'll finally have a 3 who's able to guard bigger guys like melo. + If Rudy comes buys in and doesn't cause any ruckus, we'll finally of gained our respect back and be able lure players to this team. No starts come to Toronto, cuz most player don't want to be part of the rebuilding process which we a perpetually stuck in. I say Do w/e we can to get Gay and go from there.

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        • #19
          Jkwasia wrote: View Post
          You guys are funny only on RR can people be upset at BC for drafting mediocre talent and above average bench players then be ready to run the guy out of town when he is trying to turn are scraps to get a LEGIT talent please people come to your senses Gay is better then anybody on the Raptors roster...period 0.o
          C-Low wrote: View Post
          +1 what Matt52 said..

          Stop overrating Ed we'll get over it. Cap Space alway just gets wasted in toronto..look what it's got us so far...Bargs/Demar/Fields are our recent signings ..thank you i'll take my chances with the 26 year old freak of nature. With Casey at the helm, he'll start playing D and hopefuly we'll finally have a 3 who's able to guard bigger guys like melo. + If Rudy comes buys in and doesn't cause any ruckus, we'll finally of gained our respect back and be able lure players to this team. No starts come to Toronto, cuz most player don't want to be part of the rebuilding process which we a perpetually stuck in. I say Do w/e we can to get Gay and go from there.

          after this year, we are guarenteed to have gay for 2 years at near 20 million a year. i have never been upset with the ed pick and have repeatedly said he should be the primary back-up with amir shipped out of town.

          gay is a good player not a great player. for capspace and fillers this is a great/fantastic trade for us but right when you start throwing in our young players this goes from great/fantastic to not worth it, really fast.

          "with casey at the helm, he'll start playing d" just like bargs? guy's been in the league six years. he is what he is. lined up with ed and jv and lowry both he and demar can play however they want. the d is covered. ship out ed and its gay, demar and bargs. ouch. or amir until the 10 minute mark after he has picked up his first two fouls and we need to bring bargs in to play starters minutes.

          if this trade went down for ed, i would give the republic one month of excusing gay until what we gave up for him was ridiculous and now "our" team is hand cuffed.

          the best play for this team is to jettison jose and bargs out of here. and continue the upward climb

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          • #20
            Most of what had to be said has been said. I just want to point out that the best time to trade young assets is when at least one has matured into a solid player, and you are looking to compliment them. If we trade for Gay now, how does the whole team improve? Maybe we marginally improve but if we lose depth, and an asset it makes little sense.

            Maybe if it was a Demar and filler trade it would kind of work but that's lateral for more money. Right now our best bet is to let DD TR ED and JV mature see which of them is maturing the fastest and moving the others while they have value.

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            • #21
              Dont like this deal if it includes Ed Davis. I hated everything about Ed's game last year. This year he looks like a completely different player. I think he has even improved from his first start till now.

              I don't think Gay is that great either. If we were trading for an actual perennial all star I could see the trade including davis, but this guy is B-Tier at best and he is having a bad season with an absolutely gross contract that expires in 2 years when we are probably not going to be even contending for 3 years at a best case scenario. AKA this guy will bail. I think raptor fans are just in love with this guy because he always daggers us at the end of games.

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              • #22
                Lots of talk of Rudy Gay the "healthy", however he hasn't been able to play a full season for 3 years. That is a flag for me.

                A playoff team needs 82 games + post season. Gay has not been able to deliver that for a while.



                I remember when Carter had that unintrested season. His value tumbled, all Babcock could get was scraps. Here was a player that was once mentioned in the same sentence as Jordan and Kobe, and next thing you know he is being traded for, fuck I dont even remember who the players were (jk, but you guys get the point).


                I' take Gay, but I don't want to bail Memphis out. Jose is having a fantastic season, hate to see him go, 10 million in cap and ED Davis a maturing big man (and we know those take time to develop), who happens to be turning heads around the league. Instinct can't be taught.


                Then you have AA who is playing out of this world and making me forget about SF as being a position that we need to address. I know that his subtraction is going to HURT this team. I also know that Davis's subtraction is going to hurt this team. Can Gay make up for these two? They are playing for very low money. We are filling a lot with AA and Davis for the bucks we are paying them. To move that out, and replace it with Gay at 16 million, seems like a very low margin for error move. One problem, injury, chemistry, loss of athleticism, and we are up the creek without a paddle.


                I want the asking price lowered or the deal sweetened.
                Last edited by BasketballCrush; Thu Jan 10, 2013, 04:06 AM.

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                • #23
                  white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                  1) Ok, I don't even really know what that means exactly. You could say the same about Bargs, and most want him gone. You could say the same about Michael Beasley even...
                  2) 26 is not that young for someone who hasn't expanded his game since his 2nd year, who isn't a great shooter, and who's only going to start getting less athletic.
                  3) Ok, he wants out of Memphis, and it's not his fault they misvalued his contract, but why does that make it ok to take on an overvalued contract?
                  4) Gay is to Memphis as Bargnani is to Toronto....Underachieving. Overpaid. Disinterested. One-dimensional. I don't know if there's a better reason to not trade for him.
                  5) Ok, he has good size. Can't hate him for that. Maybe we should just re-sign Dominic McGuire and work really hard at teaching him to shoot a jumper. And Gay doesn't really use it to his advantage...again, much like Bargs.
                  6) Can Casey get him to buy in ? Probably for at least 13 games....
                  7) Lowry and Gay Best-ies....This is not an argument to make a move to attempt to improve a basketball team. Lowry is also friends with Anderson. Demar is pretty close now with everyone on the team, including Amir and Ed, if one were to be traded. Chemistry is not remotely an issue, and friendship off the court does not necessarily translate to success on the court.
                  8) Flexibility isn't just capspace. The draft is where you get talented players, like JV, Demar and Ross. I see no reason to sacrifice not only capspace, but the possibility of improving through drafting, or using such picks as assets in trades to address real needs at the right time. Rudy Gay addresses zero needs (especially if Demar is included), unless you believe a starting SF has to be at least 6'8".
                  9) and 10) I have one main concern: you assume not only Bargnani is gone, but that we will not be taking any money back, so he's traded for only expiring deals or just amnestied???? I'm really just asking. If not, wouldn't more need to be shed to give that kind of offer to Millsap? And in general, if Bargnani's contract value is totally gone somehow, and Demar gives you much the same if not more than Gay at less money, that provides much more flexibility.

                  In the end I still don't see the merit of this deal in any way that would work for Memphis or really makes sense for us. I kept trying to think of a way I'd be willing to do it. And in theory there are pieces I'd give up. Obviously spare parts like LK, Gray, Acy, Lucas are all in play. Jose is in there too with his contract and value. Maybe Anderson too. I'd have a really hard time giving up Ed with his play and youth. Don't think Memphis would want Amir, even at decent value, if their motivations are mainly financial. Basically I'd be ok with getting Gay if we totally fleeced Memphis...like Jose, Kleiza and Anderson...I'd do that in a heartbeat.
                  1) Gay comparisons to Bargnani and Beasley is ludicrous.
                  2) Is 26 the new 36? He has a good 5 years left and his game is not solely dependent on athleticism.
                  3) Why not? He fills a serious area of need and given the current state of the payroll, he is hardly crippling.
                  4) You left out fan whipping post. Again, Gay to Bargnani comparisons are ridiculous.
                  5) Now Gay to McGuire comparisons? Really?
                  6) More Bargnani comparisons? Nothing similar about their situations except unreasonable fan expectations.
                  7) Good point. Jack and Bosh also did nothing for Toronto.
                  8) What lottery pick do the Raptors have to improve with? What pick, other than 2nd round picks, can Toronto include in a trade? Trading for Gay, given current place in standings, will likely add a draft pick 15+. Gay doesn't fill a need? We'll have to agree to disagree.... well on everything.
                  9 and 10) Flexibility is hardly lost. Sign and trade still exists. Other trades still exist. The flexibility lost would be to sign a top free agent and given Toronto's free agency history, is that a bad thing? Trading for Gay would also keep the MLE in play. Adding a player like Gay might help bring a free agent.... might not either but I think chances are higher with.

                  As I said, a 3rd or 4th team would need to be added as for the points you raised a straight MEM-TOR trade is not going to happen.

                  However, if you add a 3rd or 4th team and you are able to get Gay for Calderon/ED/2nd round picks.... you do it without question. Even better if Bargnani is included in any deal (again, 3rd and 4th teams necessary). If you can get Gay with same combination but DD is also in there, that is not so simple a decision but I'd lean towards yes given Fields and Ross on the team. I don't include Ross in any deal for Gay.

                  The bottomline is Gay is a borderline all-star having a rough shooting season. Given he has never shot less than 42% since his rookie year and he is just 26, I don't think this can be called a trend.

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                  • #24
                    I think the biggest issue with trading for Gay is that its yet another band aid to fix a cut artery.

                    This team needs to be rebuilt/restructered/re-everything in order to go anywhere. In isolation Gay likely makes the team better, but he's just one step closer to a first round losing playoff team.

                    Chasing him likely means giving up a young asset (Ed), and cap space (Jose's expiring + Gay's contract) for the right to lose in the playoffs in the near future.

                    I think Gay is a good basketball player. He may be an all-star one day, and if not he'll likely always be close to it. If he was on this team it would be an easy argument to make that he would become the best player.

                    But this team needs to take the exact opposite route to this.

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                    • #25
                      Slightly unrelated questions (maybe more rhetorical than real), but why do I keep reading about how poor Gay's defense supposedly is? Is the policy in the raptor media to just throw around the term defense? Especially after the years we have watched?

                      And how is Gay and Demar a duplication? Its like saying Dwight Howard and Kendrick Perkins are duplication because they are both big men who can defend and rebound and who score near the bucket (ok an extreme example but the point remains). Gay is a threat to make the all-star team every year, Demar is a threat to make the bench on any team not run by Brian Colangelo.

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                      • #26
                        Hey Matt, and in general, I don't think Gay and Bargnani's situations are that different, and that's mainly my point...And BTW, if you don't think just the talent level of Gay is comparable to guys like Bargs and Beasley, who do you think he is, LeBron James? Bargs and Beasley have the talent to be all-stars, albeit they lack other vital things, like giving a crap. Gay is obviously not as bad as either of them, but he's hardly a committed player. Gay is an overvalued player who's got lots of talent but hasn't fulfilled it. There is some thought that he's still young, but 26 is not young anymore for youngs. You say "is 26 36?"...It's not super old, but most wings who rely on athleticism and don't round out their game much start becoming pretty useless arond 30 or soonafter...Pietrus is only 30 and look at him. Even VC, who was a much better player than Gay is, started becoming a totally different and much less useful player around what, 31, 32? Gay being 26 mean you can only count on his prime years for the length of his contract and maybe 2-3 years after that. NBA careers are short.
                        A lot of your points seem to value his potential, age and size while ignoring his actual ability and what he brings to the table. What does Gay add to our team other than a name?
                        -He is not a great shooter...average to above average maybe.
                        -He's an inefficient scorer who's worse at using his size (his better size) than Demar in the post...Gay takes a lot more bad contested jumpers
                        -Average rebounder
                        -Not much of a dribble drive game
                        -Takes many nights off on D
                        -Another ball stopper, which is even worse if we lost Jose as well
                        -No leadership...Gasol, Randolph, Conley and Allen all much stronger leaders in Memphis

                        All that can be yours for a young asset or two, possibly picks, and if you're willing to pay 18 million plus for 2 more years after this.

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                        • #27
                          This whole desire to get Gay smacks of "the grass is greener on the other side". Again Matt, a lot of my comparing to Bargs has to do with underachieving, and that Gay is just about as much a headache in Memphis as Bargs is here. I think Chisholm is right, and that it wouldn't take much or be long before fans find reasons to turn on Gay. Again, Gay is not nearly the player VC was in his prime, and he's much more indifferent. He'll frustrate the hell out of people and likely isn't good enough to be worth it.

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                          • #28
                            I've never been a huge Rudy Gay fan, but I would support this trade if going outbound were Jose and Ed. It shores up the SF position, and all we would have to give up are two players that can be replaced with quality players from within (Lowry/Amir). It gives us a guy whom can close games out and whom has the tools to defend well under the right coach (Casey).

                            Also, and I think it's an important point, having Gay on the roster means amnestying AB makes much more sense. I've personally felt that AB should be traded instead of amnestied because Toronto has such a difficult time attracting talent, so what's the point of having the extra $$ if you can't buy anything with it? However, with a young semi-stud like Gay on the roster we become a much more attractive team and you may actually get some quality free agents looking our way, imo.

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                            • #29
                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              If Ross is not involved, I go after Rudy. Reasons:

                              1) The talent is there.
                              2) Just 26 years old. Get McKechnie devising plan for his shoulder, return to 2010-11 form.
                              3) It has been reported he wants out of MEM for a long time. Only signed extension because, well, would you turn down $80M?
                              4) Change of scenery should do him good (Bargnani is to Toronto as Rudy is to Memphis).
                              5) 6'8" SF with 7'2" wingspan.
                              6) Can Casey get him to buy in? I think so.
                              7) Lowry and Gay best-ies.
                              8) Cap space and flexibility has done what for Toronto in last 3 years? Contract be damned.
                              9) If DeRozan was included in trade, they have enough cap space to go after and talent to entice a FA PF like Paul Millsap this summer.
                              10) If DD is not included and assuming ED is, sending out another $2.5M in the trade off next year (Gray?), amnestying Kleiza, and a bump in the salary cap as expected should lead to enough cap space to make a run at a FA PF like Paul Millsap.

                              *Both 9 and 10 assume Bargnani is gone.


                              In a nutshell if a combination of Calderon/ED/possibly DD/2nd round picks gets you Gay, you do it (obviously a 3rd or 4th team is going to need to be brought in).
                              I agree 100%. Davis is not a guy who prevents you from landing the best SF the franchise will ever see.

                              From Kapono, to Moon, to Graham, to Turkoglu, to Wright, to Kleiza, to Fields, to Pietrus....our small forwards have been horrendous for an eternity. We finally have the opportunity to address the issue for years to come, and we're balking because of Ed Davis? I don't get it...

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                              • #30
                                It will be an issue if we dont sign someone immediately to fill Ed Davis's spot. Im all for this deal if it happens. Raptors are a much better team with traditional big men down low we haven't had post production for years now. So if Davis moves we land Gay sign someone to fill that Gap I really dont want Casey having to play Gray/Acy and having only Amir as our only legit 4...

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