Rod Black Says- "Pathetic"

[Multipaul]

i agree with Arse. I believe our team has all the tools necessary to play good defense. They have lateral quicks, decent IQ (usually), and can communicate well when they try to.

And just why is PJ here? To give interviews to Jack at halftime?

[Multipaul]

Clearly Bargs isn't the only defensive liability of the team. But when he is supposed to be your top player/leader, and he doesn't give a s#@% about playing D, that is a terrible example to set as a leader. I think its more on Triano though. If a guy doesn't play D, bench his ass.

Did you watch last night? Bargs was out most of the game and we got blown out. I saw 0% effort on D by EVERYONE.

[jimmie]

If you look at the Raps individually, they have rotation guys like Bayless, Amir, Evans, Davis who are inherently good defenders, and they're complemented with athleticism in DeRozan, Weems and JJ, so really, we should be better than we are and certainly not dead last in the NBA for the second year running. I realize athleticism doesn't equate to defense, but it's definitely a starting point for a coach to work with.

The longer we suck defensively, the harder you have to look at Triano. Right now Sam Mitchell got more out of these guys on D than Triano.

Lack of defensive talent. Not the coach or the system. Triano is responsible for implementing a system; the players are responsible for executing it. This is a young, inexperienced team that is, more often than not, vastly outmatched in terms of experience and accrued NBA skills. Take it at face value -- there's no complicated or hidden reason for the defensive suckage.

Ed Davis is the ONLY "above average" defender on the roster at this point -- which is great, considering he has the least experience. For him, he's obviously been born with the defensive IQ gene. Amir is OK, improving, but still just OK. Bayless and Reggie are both bad examples. Reggie is a terrible man defender (great rebounder, though). Bayless has the physical ability, but not the execution. Similar to those others you mention (Demar, Weems, etc.).

The positive is that they're all young and inexperienced and should be expected to be very inconsistent at this point in their development. They WILL get better. The corollary to this is that a defensive system is only as strong as the SUM of its parts. Singling out bad defenders, or the system itself, is only useful if the rest of the squad are good defenders, which is not the case here.

Triano deserves respect for getting these guys to play hard all the time. Effort is not a question; just execution. In a year like this, getting consistent effort has to mean extra credit to the coaching staff, not suggestions that they should be replaced.

Seasoning is what this roster needs. And more talent.

[nubreed000]

No one has said that Bargnani is the sole reasons for the Raptors defensive problems, but he's obviously a main factor. Of that there can be no doubt.

And what you fail to mention is that Bargnani played the first 8 minutes, and that's when the team really seemed to lose the game. Yes, he was hurt, and you have to factor that in, but him being out there was a major reason the Knicks got the momentum they did.

As for judging the team on one game, unfortunately you seem to have done that on many occasions.

If Bargs wasn't 100% then why in Gods name would they put him out there? And if they wanted to test him out, why not get him to come off the bench for this one game and keep the line up they had for the past 2, which was clearly working? Would that hurt his delicate ego if he had to come off the bench? Or would Colangelo and Gherardini disapprove?

Anybody know what P.J Carlesimo is bringing to the team? Wasn't he supposed to be the defensive guy this year?

Ya, the same way Iavaroni was the defensive specialist last year LOL the comedy courtesy of BC doesn't end. Look at the Bulls. They bring in Thibodeau, the assistant who was the defensive specialist for Boston, and where are they now??

What's next for BC? Bringing in "defensive mastermind" Mike D'Antoni next year?

Same could be said of Landry. Look at DD's points and rebounds. Goes both ways, bro. And we played a back-to-back and DD's numbers were high, BOTH nights.

We did not play on a B2B.

[LeeZ]

Clearly Bargs isn't the only defensive liability of the team. But when he is supposed to be your top player/leader, and he doesn't give a s#@% about playing D, that is a terrible example to set as a leader. I think its more on Triano though. If a guy doesn't play D, bench his ass.

Exactly. I read a quote from Jay yesterday (or the day before) saying how he had done a much better job making the team accountable this year. I nearly fell out of my chair. Is he on crack? Accountability? Are you KIDDING me? As one of the previous posters pointed out, he sat Andrea for part of one game. ONE GAME. In a perfect world, Kevin O'Neil gets canned by USC for getting into that altercation a few weeks ago, and the Raps pick him up to be our defensive guru. Say what you want about him, but if you can make even VINCE play defence and hustle, then you can make ANYONE. I will never forget the first time (on KO's watch) that Vince pulled his "I've fallen and I can't get up" shtick and KO gesticulated like a mad man for Vince to get his ass up off the court and get back on dee. AND VINCE DID! Ah, the good ol' days...

[nubreed000]

Lack of defensive talent. Not the coach or the system. Triano is responsible for implementing a system; the players are responsible for executing it. This is a young, inexperienced team that is, more often than not, vastly outmatched in terms of experience and accrued NBA skills. Take it at face value -- there's no complicated or hidden reason for the defensive suckage.

Ed Davis is the ONLY "above average" defender on the roster at this point -- which is great, considering he has the least experience. For him, he's obviously been born with the defensive IQ gene. Amir is OK, improving, but still just OK. Bayless and Reggie are both bad examples. Reggie is a terrible man defender (great rebounder, though). Bayless has the physical ability, but not the execution. Similar to those others you mention (Demar, Weems, etc.).

The positive is that they're all young and inexperienced and should be expected to be very inconsistent at this point in their development. They WILL get better. The corollary to this is that a defensive system is only as strong as the SUM of its parts. Singling out bad defenders, or the system itself, is only useful if the rest of the squad are good defenders, which is not the case here.

Triano deserves respect for getting these guys to play hard all the time. Effort is not a question; just execution. In a year like this, getting consistent effort has to mean extra credit to the coaching staff, not suggestions that they should be replaced.

Seasoning is what this roster needs. And more talent.

Consistent effort? Say what? There's nothing consistent about this years team and effort. If there was, we wouldn't have these blow outs. Remember the Golden State game? This one was similar. Last night these guys were completely out of it. At one point, the whole team decided that they're going to stand like chumps on the left side of the basket and leave everyone on the right side open. They even showed this on the replay. Coaching should be replaced cause they clearly don't know what the f*** they're doing. And management too, if they're going to keep meddling in with the team and pretend like everything's just great when there's clearly preferential treatment going on.

[Tim W.]

I'm getting the sense alot of you DID NOT watch the game last night. Bargs played sparingly and then was pulled. After he was pulled, as matt devline said, triano let them play through it "cuz when you're down this bad, what does it matter, right jack". They got in a BIG hole when Bargs was OFF the floor.

And, FYI, it wasn't Bargs' job to guard the NY wings who were KILLING US last night! Melo, Billups, Douglas, etc!

Tim, i dont think you even watched the game. I watched it all, when Denver went up 15, 20, 30, Bargs was on the bench or in the locker room. No close out on Melo etc on the 3s, Fields went to town. Nothing to do with Bargs.

Weems, juju, Bayles, DD, Amir, etc., all of them DID NOT show up last night. At all. Terrible. Landry Fields was schooling DD all night.

So dont change this post to a hate AB thread. The point is that even without AB, the defense SUCKS

Everyone knows the defense is still not good even without Bargnani. There has never been any argument about that. And I''m certainly not blaming Bargnani for the loss. But you were the one that brought up Bargnani. If you don't want us to discuss him, it's probably best not to bring him up.

That said, there obviously need to be several changes made to change the identity of the team. DeRozan scored 35 points, but did nothing on defense, how valuable was he? I'm still willing to give him some leeway because he has shown defensive progress and is only in his second year, but I only have so much patience when it comes to defense. The team atmosphere needs to change, and it needs to start this summer.

[Multipaul]

That was the worst. The play where 3 guys were just kind of sauntering around Amare, Billups cross-court passes to the open man for an easy basket. That was one of the most pathetic plays I have ever seen in basketball.

[Tim W.]

If Bargs wasn't 100% then why in Gods name would they put him out there? And if they wanted to test him out, why not get him to come off the bench for this one game and keep the line up they had for the past 2, which was clearly working? Would that hurt his delicate ego if he had to come off the bench? Or would Colangelo and Gherardini disapprove?.

I don't know why either Amir or Bargnani are playing, quite frankly. It doesn't make much sense to me. Amir certainly hasn't helped the team much lately with him playing on one leg. And Bargnani certainly isn't even close to 100%. I think Triano gets too much criticism, but on this I agree.

[Multipaul]

Everyone knows the defense is still not good even without Bargnani. There has never been any argument about that. And I''m certainly not blaming Bargnani for the loss. But you were the one that brought up Bargnani. If you don't want us to discuss him, it's probably best not to bring him up.

That said, there obviously need to be several changes made to change the identity of the team. DeRozan scored 35 points, but did nothing on defense, how valuable was he? I'm still willing to give him some leeway because he has shown defensive progress and is only in his second year, but I only have so much patience when it comes to defense. The team atmosphere needs to change, and it needs to start this summer.

1. I brought up Bargs to make a point. Last night NO BODY put up any defense , it was disgusting, Melo was laughing at us the whole game, he was left wide open the entire game. The point being made is to those that were saying yesterday "we are better without Bargs's liabilitites on D". I guess that theory is out the door.

2. Yes, Dero scored alot, but played poor D. Just like last time at MSG, Bargs scored alot, but played poor D. Same issues, diff players.

The system, coaching, mgmt is all messed up.

[Multipaul]

I don't know why either Amir or Bargnani are playing, quite frankly. It doesn't make much sense to me. Amir certainly hasn't helped the team much lately with him playing on one leg. And Bargnani certainly isn't even close to 100%. I think Triano gets too much criticism, but on this I agree.

They should both be shut down, it's just hurting them, who cares if we win or lose now anyways.

[Tim W.]

1. I brought up Bargs to make a point. Last night NO BODY put up any defense , it was disgusting, Melo was laughing at us the whole game, he was left wide open the entire game. The point being made is to those that were saying yesterday "we are better without Bargs's liabilitites on D". I guess that theory is out the door.

You just said we shouldn't judge a team by one game, but that's exactly what you are doing. The fact is the Raptors ARE better defensively without Bargnani. They still aren't good, but they are better.

2. Yes, Dero scored alot, but played poor D. Just like last time at MSG, Bargs scored alot, but played poor D. Same issues, diff players.

I agree. And I'm consistently critical when this happens. I don't care if you score 30 points if you don't hold up your end on defense. I'm not going to laud a player for scoring points but not playing defense.

The system, coaching, mgmt is all messed up.

The system and coaching would look a lot better with better players. Don't use the system and coaching as a scapegoat. It's PART of the problem, but it's hard to judge the craftmanship of a boat builder when all he was given to work with was rotten wood.

[Tim W.]

They should both be shut down, it's just hurting them, who cares if we win or lose now anyways.

We can both agree on this.

[Multipaul]

You just said we shouldn't judge a team by one game, but that's exactly what you are doing. The fact is the Raptors ARE better defensively without Bargnani. They still aren't good, but they are better.



I agree. And I'm consistently critical when this happens. I don't care if you score 30 points if you don't hold up your end on defense. I'm not going to laud a player for scoring points but not playing defense.



The system and coaching would look a lot better with better players. Don't use the system and coaching as a scapegoat. It's PART of the problem, but it's hard to judge the craftmanship of a boat builder when all he was given to work with was rotten wood.

I like the rotten wood/boat analogy. You could say that a master craftsman could take doodoo and make it art though. Maybe just abstract art though, like maybe GSW under Nellie. Not great, but at least palatable (of course no D...maybe a bad example then..)

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I watched last night's game, unfortunately. I could care less about the result or even the score, since this year is about player growth, team chemistry building and getting as many ping-pong balls as possible. I watched last night's game trying to determine the WHY and HOW the team is so horrendous defensively.

My observations:

1) PENETRATION - The 2 most important positions defensively are whoever is guarding the guy with the ball (mostly the PG) and the last-line-of-defense (usually the C). Two of our weakest defenders all season have been Calderon & Bargnani - and I am nearly as big a Bargnani supporter as Multipaul, so I don't feel like a hater pointing this out. My thought was that you could possibly have a below average defender at one of these crucial positions, but not at both. With them both essentially out of the game, I focussed on their replacements. Bayless continues to be mentioned as a good defender, but his defense - either due to talent or effort - is nearly as bad as Calderon's. On the few occassions where he was geared up to play D, the Knicks simply put the ball in the hands of their SG/SF and let them penetrate. As bad as Calderon has been all season at letting his man penetrate, I have come to the realization that our SG/SF players are just as ineffective, though James Johnson has done an ok, if inconistent job (he always seems to be doubling nobody in particular, leaving him in poor position to prevent his guy from penetrating, which negates any defensive skill he may have). Since all of our guards/swingmen seem more willing to allow penetration than a $2 hooker, it puts even more pressure on our bigs, which I think has caused Bargnani's weakest part of his game to be magnified. Amir has bursts of decent help defense, but his foul-prone nature really limits his aggressiveness. Evans is a rebounder, but essentially a pilon on both ends of the court. Davis is the only Raptor big that seems to have both the natural instincts and effort to help defenisvely and has improved as the season has gone on. I think he will develop into an above-average help defender. The Raps have to decide what they can do better out of these 2 options (unless they find a way to do both): first, they can improve the perimiter defense at both guard positions. DeRozan should be able to improve with experience, given his athleticism, but I think we need a new PG with defensive skills; second, they can improve the interior help defense at the C position. I still think Bargnani can improve and better perimeter defense would help this. The decision will be whether better perimeter D and Bargnani's offense are enough to negate his defensive shortcomings or if they can generate enough offensive without him, to justify picking up a more traditional defense-first center. I honestly think both options could work, depending on what other moves are made. For me, getting a better defensive PG is the top priority, along with DeRozan improving his D...

2) DEFENSIVE SHIFTS/ROTATIONS/DOUBLES - So many times last night I watched Raptors players shifting around on defense, even when the Knicks players were more or less standing still. It's almost as though the Raptors expect whoever has the ball to beat his man, so they cheat with the defensive double-teams. The Knicks' PG would dribble two steps to the left or right from the top of the 3pt line and give a little head-and-shoulders dip to fake a drive, and one of the Raptors wings would leave his man to help out our PG, leaving the likes of 'Melo open time and time again for wide open looks. My first observation talked about allowing penetration, but our perimeter defense is so bad (and every team knows it), that they no longer even have to actually penetrate to cause the Raps D to break down.


My observations allow me to draw a couple conclusions, that I think need to be addressed to improve the Raptors' defensive and team overall next season:

1) Better on-ball defense, especially from the PG - this will limit penetration, reduce need to shift/rotate defense and double-team, all of which will put less pressure on the C/PF help defense

2) Fill the roster with players who have better basketball IQ, specifically defensive instincts. Defensive schemes can be learned, but defensive instincts cannot. Too many players just don't know when to double and when not to, or when to help and when not to, etc... In fairness, I think some of this can be offset by players gaining more experience individually (ie: DeRozan), developing more chemistry together as a unit and not relying so much on defensive rotations/doubles or switching so much from man to zone defense (most of which is done to negate the team's horrible permiter and help defense).


For me, a better PG and an improved SG (DeRozan), defensively, are the keys for overall improvement.

If the defense of both guard positions is improved on the perimeter, then I am torn about Bargnani. On one hand there is no denying the need for better help defense and rebounding from the C position. On the other hand, if the perimeter defense can be significantly improved, to the point that his defensive shortcomings can be hidden somewhat, then I really like his offensive game and the way his skills can cause mismatches both for him and other players (ie: guards being able to blow-by slower bigs on rotations).