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  • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Exactly what are we comparing between the two? Thats right... they both are jumpshooting bigs therefore Bargnani is magically 'like' Dirk (and not Channing Frye)
    C'mon man, they're both from Europe. That means they're the same player, and have the same MVP-calibre ceiling, DUH!

    Oh yeah, and stats are for suckers (apparently).

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    • Dirk's career average Defense rating is 103. Bargnani's 111.

      Dirk's best year by defense rating was 2002/03 (ironically enough his 5th year in the league) when the team was centered by a platoon of Raef Lafrentz and Shawn Bradley. His defense rating was 98 that year.
      Im not sure if your comment was pro or con towards my post, but yes, Dirk's DRtg is lower by avg, my guess is, because he's always been paired with a defensive center. And yes it was 2002/03 when he got his best DRtg. What you forgot to post though was so did both Lafrentz and Bradley. That year was their best DRtg in their careers. Did it help Dirk? Maybe. Will it do the same for Bargnani? I hope.

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      • Nilanka wrote: View Post
        C'mon man, they're both from Europe. That means they're the same player, and have the same MVP-calibre ceiling, DUH!

        Oh yeah, and stats are for suckers (apparently).
        +1.

        Comment


        • Nilanka wrote: View Post
          C'mon man, they're both from Europe. That means they're the same player, and have the same MVP-calibre ceiling, DUH!

          Oh yeah, and stats are for suckers (apparently).
          Its honestly one of my biggest pet peeves with Bargnani... how Dirk's name always has to come up. He is 7ft, white, European and their country of origin was a facist state between WWI up to and through WWII (again ironically Germany was much more productive, efficient and deadly). After that, it ends.

          Statistically speaking Channing Frye is much more relevant. Except in terms of total shots ofcourse

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          • People keep comparing them because they don't watch Bargnani play. Every time I read an article where the writer tries to make Bargnani/Nowitzki parallels it's a smoking gun. I then proceed to press the X button in the upper right hand corner of the screen.

            Bargnani is a lot more talented than Frye by the way.

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            • Apollo wrote: View Post
              People keep comparing them because they don't watch Bargnani play. Every time I read an article where the writer tries to make Bargnani/Nowitzki parallels it's a smoking gun. I then proceed to press the X button in the upper right hand corner of the screen.

              Bargnani is a lot more talented than Frye by the way.
              I think its pretty much the same why as when people compare Bargnani to another 7 footer, 250+lbs and is labeled as "Center" and expects him to do the exact same things as other 7 footers who play as center in the league.

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              • I don't think its much to ask that the guy play hard on defense and in rebounding. Most people complaining about those two typically bring up effort and not inability. I'm not sure what his problem is there for sure but I think some of those criticizing him for it obviously watch a lot of Raptors basketball.

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                • Apollo wrote: View Post
                  I don't think its much to ask that the guy play hard on defense and in rebounding. Most people complaining about those two typically bring up effort and not inability. I'm not sure what his problem is there for sure but I think some of those criticizing him for it obviously watch a lot of Raptors basketball.
                  Agree.

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                  • tbihis wrote: View Post
                    Im not sure if your comment was pro or con towards my post, but yes, Dirk's DRtg is lower by avg, my guess is, because he's always been paired with a defensive center. And yes it was 2002/03 when he got his best DRtg. What you forgot to post though was so did both Lafrentz and Bradley. That year was their best DRtg in their careers. Did it help Dirk? Maybe. Will it do the same for Bargnani? I hope.
                    my point was what you said was incomplete. Dirk has always had a defense rating somewhere between average and good.

                    Did Raef lafrentz and Bradley's defense rating help Dirk? Maybe. Or did Dirk's defense helped Raef and Bradley have their "best drtg of their careers"?

                    Tyson Chandlers defense rating was right at his career average last year. Exactly the same as the year before when he played on one of the best defensive teams in the league.

                    Chris Bosh's defense rating got worse every year Bargnani was beside him. Bargnani's got worse every year Bosh was beside him. When Bosh left his defense rating jumped to the 2nd best of his career (103). When Bosh left Bargnani's defense rating ended up being the worst of his career (115)


                    There is a pretty amazing (although imperfect) correlation between Bargnani's minutes per game and his defense rating getting worse. That same correlation exists between Bargnani's minutes per game and his teammates defense ratings getting worse. That same correlation exists between Bargnani's minutes and the team's opponents FG%... at some point it can no longer be everyone else's fault. That there is one central issue making everyone else, atleast appear, worse defensively

                    So will putting a defensive minded C beside Bargnani improve Bargnani's defense rating? I don't doubt it. And conversely Bargnani will also make that same defensive C look worse defensively.

                    Comment


                    • Apollo wrote: View Post
                      People keep comparing them because they don't watch Bargnani play. Every time I read an article where the writer tries to make Bargnani/Nowitzki parallels it's a smoking gun. I then proceed to press the X button in the upper right hand corner of the screen.

                      Bargnani is a lot more talented than Frye by the way.
                      I don't disagree that Bargnani is much more talented than Frye, but as it relates to tbihis and my discussion prior, he doesn't use that talent so in the end it makes no difference. Is not using a talent any better than not having a talent at all? In theory, yes as there is the possibility that talent could be used. In reality no, atleast as long as that talent is not being used.

                      Comment


                      • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                        my point was what you said was incomplete. Dirk has always had a defense rating somewhere between average and good.

                        Did Raef lafrentz and Bradley's defense rating help Dirk? Maybe. Or did Dirk's defense helped Raef and Bradley have their "best drtg of their careers"?

                        Tyson Chandlers defense rating was right at his career average last year. Exactly the same as the year before when he played on one of the best defensive teams in the league.

                        Chris Bosh's defense rating got worse every year Bargnani was beside him. Bargnani's got worse every year Bosh was beside him. When Bosh left his defense rating jumped to the 2nd best of his career (103). When Bosh left Bargnani's defense rating ended up being the worst of his career (115)


                        There is a pretty amazing (although imperfect) correlation between Bargnani's minutes per game and his defense rating getting worse. That same correlation exists between Bargnani's minutes per game and his teammates defense ratings getting worse. That same correlation exists between Bargnani's minutes and the team's opponents FG%... at some point it can no longer be everyone else's fault. That there is one central issue making everyone else, atleast appear, worse defensively

                        So will putting a defensive minded C beside Bargnani improve Bargnani's defense rating? I don't doubt it. And conversely Bargnani will also make that same defensive C look worse defensively.
                        I just checked on 82games, and during Bosh's last year with the Raps, he had a better DRtg playing center alongside Bargnani but Bargnani had the worst DRtg play alongside Bosh as a PF, but he has the a better DRtg when playing Center alongside Bosh as a PF. Im confused.

                        Comment


                        • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                          I don't disagree that Bargnani is much more talented than Frye, but as it relates to tbihis and my discussion prior, he doesn't use that talent so in the end it makes no difference. Is not using a talent any better than not having a talent at all? In theory, yes as there is the possibility that talent could be used. In reality no, atleast as long as that talent is not being used.
                          I think Apollo meant more talented offensively.

                          Comment


                          • tbihis wrote: View Post
                            I think its pretty much the same why as when people compare Bargnani to another 7 footer, 250+lbs and is labeled as "Center" and expects him to do the exact same things as other 7 footers who play as center in the league.
                            People don't compare him to other 7 footers as much as they simply compare him to other big men. And the reason they do that is that many (including myself) feel that there are some absolute minimums of what big men NEED to be able to do in order not to be a detriment to the team, and Bargnani doesn't do those things. It's kind of like getting a PG who is a horrible passer.

                            There are two many people who want to say that Bargnani's role isn't to play defense and rebound, but to score. The problem is he plays a position (whether center or PF) where you pretty much have to play defense and rebound if you want to help your team win. And as we've pointed out, his scoring isn't nearly at a level where you can ignore his defense and rebounding.

                            So what do you have? A guy who simply isn't worth the trouble people seem to be going through to try and fit him in.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                            • tbihis wrote: View Post
                              I just checked on 82games, and during Bosh's last year with the Raps, he had a better DRtg playing center alongside Bargnani but Bargnani had the worst DRtg play alongside Bosh as a PF, but he has the a better DRtg when playing Center alongside Bosh as a PF. Im confused.
                              How they were able to determine which position either one was playing is beyond me. I think it's almost arbitrary, so I don't think it means much.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                              Follow me on Twitter.

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                              • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                People don't compare him to other 7 footers as much as they simply compare him to other big men. And the reason they do that is that many (including myself) feel that there are some absolute minimums of what big men NEED to be able to do in order not to be a detriment to the team, and Bargnani doesn't do those things. It's kind of like getting a PG who is a horrible passer.

                                There are two many people who want to say that Bargnani's role isn't to play defense and rebound, but to score. The problem is he plays a position (whether center or PF) where you pretty much have to play defense and rebound if you want to help your team win. And as we've pointed out, his scoring isn't nearly at a level where you can ignore his defense and rebounding.

                                So what do you have? A guy who simply isn't worth the trouble people seem to be going through to try and fit him in.
                                Agree.

                                Im just saying that its two-fold, some choose to compare him to Dirk, some choose to compare him to other big men. Whichever fits their argument.

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