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  • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Way to cherry pick a stat. Over the last 30 games:
    My friend... quit while you're behind
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

    Comment


    • enlightenment wrote: View Post
      My friend... quit while you're behind
      I would if I was talking complete shit.

      I said initially that the last 30 games is what I'm looking at

      imanshumpert used TS% and FTA, which are the only stats where there are differences that significantly favor DD

      If that isn't cherry picking stats to prove a point I don't know what is. I just put up the eFG% and TS% numbers from the last 30 to show that the following statement is not true.

      imanshumpert wrote:
      Take note of the fact that DD is significantly more efficient actually, despite seeing regular double-teams and being the focal point of his team's offence.
      If you're going to bash someone for having a poor argument, make sure that they actually have a poor argument

      Comment


      • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
        I would if I was talking complete shit.

        I said initially that the last 30 games is what I'm looking at

        imanshumpert used TS% and FTA, which are the only stats where there are differences that significantly favor DD

        If that isn't cherry picking stats to prove a point I don't know what is. I just put up the eFG% and TS% numbers from the last 30 to show that the following statement is not true.



        If you're going to bash someone for having a poor argument, make sure that they actually have a poor argument
        Isnt that the definition of cherry picking? Choosing one stretch of play to judge a players ability. Waiters is shit, I can find you Demars best 30 games and it will trump Waiters best 30 games without question.
        The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

        Comment


        • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
          Way to cherry pick a stat. Over the last 30 games:

          Dion Waiters eFG%: 50.4% TS%: 52.8
          DeMar DeRozan eFG%: 44.3% TS%: 54.8
          What... the... hell... This is literally the most hypocritical post I've ever read. You're cherry picking the last 30 games, I'm looking at the whole season and you're telling me I'M the one cherry picking? Dude Waiters is not more efficient than DeRozan period. He's a better 3pt shooter sure, that's it.

          From the floor, Waiters is a more efficient shooter, however DD does get to the line a lot, which boosts his numbers significantly.
          And newsflash, getting to the line a lot COUNTS towards being an efficient player. It's one of the reasons why a guy like Harden is extremely efficient. Getting 7-8 points a game with nobody guarding you is HUGE.[/QUOTE]

          Their points per possession are almost identical. Waiters a bonafide chucker?? If so then DD is as well.
          No their points per SHOT (that's the stat I posted) aren't almost identical. If they take 1000 shots in a season (both players take more than that, but just to make the math easy). DeRozan produces 150 more points or nearly 2ppg. Might not seem like a big difference but it is.

          Just for emphasis, DD's PPS (1.27) is closer to Steph Curry's (1.35) and even Kevin Love's (1.40) than it is to Waiters (1.12).

          Waiters is a chucker because he is a high volume player who scores at well below average efficiency (50.7% TS). DeRozan is a volume-scorer, not a chucker because he scores at high volume with average efficiency. Elite scorers score at high volume with high efficiency though (Harden, KD, LBJ, etc).

          The second season was not more efficient for DD (I'm talking about last 30 games Waiters, he had a rough start). DD was not even close in assists and used way less (29 vs 23)
          Actually yes it was more efficient for DD (even moreso than 30 games Waiters). 53.0% TS compared to 52.8%, and it was definitely more efficient than Waiters' entire second season (50.7% TS). Additionally DD's PPS (1.22) was better also. Yeah Waiters is a better passer than DeRozan was in his second year, but DD's turnover rate was also lower, and he wasn't really used in P&R or isolation sets (ie. given the opportunity to be a playmaker).

          I'd also like you to stop cherry-picking Waiters' last 30 games. Every game counts towards his average, not just what's convenient for you. I could do similar BS with DeRozan and only look at the 28 games he played in March and February. He shot 55% TS while averaging 24.3PPG, essentially Kobe Bryant level numbers. Obviously, the other 50+ games count so I'm not going to cherry-pick and do that like you are.

          The only thing separating DD and Waiters is the amount of FT's that DD takes, that's it. However I think Waiter will be better in the future, and Waiters has a better skill set in terms of making the team better. Spout stats at me all you want, but you cannot quantify skill set with numbers. I have told you repeatedly to watch some footage of him vs DD, if you don't think that Waiters has a better skill set that makes his teammates better I don't know what kind of basketball you like to watch, but god it must be some ugly shit...
          You act like ability to get to the FT Line is some asterisk or something that can just be overlooked. But it isn't. It tends to separate elite scorers from good ones (not saying DD is an elite scorer, just pointing out a fact). You can ignore the statistics if you want, but none of them support your claims. I watch Cavaliers games as well, and tbh it's just your personal bias that makes you prefer Waiters or maybe you just like players who have a wide assortment of dribble moves. I prefer players who produce statistically and tangibly personally.

          It has to be said that this is my secondary trade idea and I would much prefer to do the Bucks trade. The Waiters trade has some associated holes with it whereas the Bucks one is a much better trade.
          Tbh neither of them is better than the other because they're both crap. The Bucks trade we're absorbing bad salary just for the slight chance that we get a player who will develop to be better than DeMar. In the Cavs trade we're trading DeMar for a worse SG, who actually cannot play the 3 at all because he's 6'4.

          I took it as such as well...getting into the paint is typically "at the rim". The fact that Waiters gets their so often is really encouraging, and he opens up a lot of ball movement off the penetration that is really valuable.
          Yeah that's great that he attempts more shots at the rim, but he shoots them at a below average rate which carries over to his atrocious true shooting percentage of 50.7% (and even worse 49.3% in his rookie year). If you can't even convert layups and dunks efficiently, you're going to have a lot of trouble shaking the "chucker" tag.


          The Bucks love Giannis. But I was thinking IF they get the number 1, they should draft Wiggins. Wiggins and Giannis are both SF's, they are too thin to play a SF-PF combo, and I don't think playing Wiggins or Giannis at the SG would work too well. Also consider that DD is an all-star and the Bucks do not like to be out of the playoff mix. Turning a "potential" player into an established star at SG, while still having a potential superstar at SF is a pretty solid move. They also offload a bad contract. There a lot of good things about this trade from the Bucks perspective.
          Actually Wiggins could play SG just fine. Paul George had no problem playing that position and Wiggins is both quicker and more agile. He basically has the same body-type as a young TMac who could switch between the 2 and 3 quite seamlessly. It's not like Wiggins is 6'8 250.

          Comment


          • enlightenment wrote: View Post
            Isnt that the definition of cherry picking? Choosing one stretch of play to judge a players ability. Waiters is shit, I can find you Demars best 30 games and it will trump Waiters best 30 games without question.
            Yep. I already posted this, but take all DeMar's games from February to the end of March. 24.3ppg on 55% TS. Kobe level play.

            Comment


            • enlightenment wrote: View Post
              My friend... quit while you're behind
              Lol, I was going to post the same thing.
              The name's Bond, James Bond.

              Comment


              • Toronto resigns Lowry to a 3 years 20 mil contract
                Toronto resigns Vazquez to a 2 years 8 mil contract
                Toronto resigns Nando de Colo to a 3 years 6 mil contract
                Toronto let 2Pat walks
                Toronto trade Amir Johnson + John Salmons for an established PF
                We still have 3 picks and possibly package a pick along with Johnson + Salmons for that PF

                Next Year
                Lowry/Vazquez/DeColo
                DeRozan/backup SG/Fields
                T-Ross/backup SF (Draft)/Novak
                Established PF/Hansborough/Hayes
                Val/backup C/Third Stringer C

                Backup SG can be filled by signing V.Carter or build through the draft
                Backup SF can be fileld by build through the draft
                Last but not least, we need a veteran backup C to fill the holes for Val then we are set.

                Comment


                • Lowry getting more than 20 mil and longer than 3 years. Overpaying for Vasquez QO @ 3.5 ( I think) and let him walk if another team signs. DeColo is a one year deal. Not signing PPat and trading Johnson doesn't make sense esp if we start using Val in the post.

                  Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

                  Comment


                  • tenforthewin wrote: View Post
                    Ujiri drugs Kyle Lowry and his agent
                    Toronto resigns Lowry to a 3 years 20 mil contract
                    Toronto resigns Vazquez to a 2 years 8 mil contract
                    Toronto resigns Nando de Colo to a 3 years 6 mil contract
                    Toronto let 2Pat walks
                    Toronto trade Amir Johnson + John Salmons for an established PF
                    We still have 3 picks and possibly package a pick along with Johnson + Salmons for that PF

                    Next Year
                    Lowry/Vazquez/DeColo
                    DeRozan/backup SG/Fields
                    T-Ross/backup SF (Draft)/Novak
                    Established PF/Hansborough/Hayes
                    Val/backup C/Third Stringer C

                    Backup SG can be filled by signing V.Carter or build through the draft
                    Backup SF can be fileld by build through the draft
                    Last but not least, we need a veteran backup C to fill the holes for Val then we are set.
                    Added a pretty crucial step.

                    Comment


                    • imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                      Yep. I already posted this, but take all DeMar's games from February to the end of March. 24.3ppg on 55% TS. Kobe level play.
                      On 44% eFG%....because DD is not efficient from the field. You are cherry picking a stat.

                      Waiters over the last 30 is at 19ppg on 50% eFG% in 7 minutes less of PT...all the while with the same number of assists and TOVs but less rebounds. Oh, and his TS% is only 2% less over this stretch as well.

                      enlightenment wrote: View Post
                      Isnt that the definition of cherry picking? Choosing one stretch of play to judge a players ability. Waiters is shit, I can find you Demars best 30 games and it will trump Waiters best 30 games without question.
                      A 30 game stretch is not "Cherry Picking"

                      Cherry Picking entails that you choose 1 stat that tells a completely different story from the rest of the data. If you look at the whole picture you will see that Waiters is as good as DD. Yes, DD has a higher TS% (only by 2%), but Waiters has a higher eFG% (by 6%), higher 3fg%, higher AST% and the same TOV%....and yet you have the audacity to support that this ONE STAT makes DD SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EFFICIENT....

                      You, my friend, are not making a very intelligent case

                      imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                      What... the... hell... This is literally the most hypocritical post I've ever read. You're cherry picking the last 30 games, I'm looking at the whole season and you're telling me I'M the one cherry picking? Dude Waiters is not more efficient than DeRozan period. He's a better 3pt shooter sure, that's it.
                      So by your reasoning the Toronto Raptors from the first 20 games is exactly the same as the Raptors from the last ~60, because the whole data set includes those first 20 and that nothing can ever change over the course of a season......

                      30 games is a large enough data set. Pretty sure this was argued at the beginning of the year with DD's 3pt shot...when he could not maintain it for 30 games and regressed to the norm.

                      imanshumpert wrote:
                      No their points per SHOT (that's the stat I posted) aren't almost identical. If they take 1000 shots in a season (both players take more than that, but just to make the math easy). DeRozan produces 150 more points or nearly 2ppg. Might not seem like a big difference but it is.


                      Just for emphasis, DD's PPS (1.27) is closer to Steph Curry's (1.35) and even Kevin Love's (1.40) than it is to Waiters (1.12).

                      Points per Possession is more accurate because it measures players by their total game, rather than just how much they shoot it

                      Waiters is a chucker because he is a high volume player who scores at well below average efficiency (50.7% TS). DeRozan is a volume-scorer, not a chucker because he scores at high volume with average efficiency. Elite scorers score at high volume with high efficiency though (Harden, KD, LBJ, etc).

                      Then what is DD?? Look at DD's eFG%, FG%, 3FG% and TS% compared to Waiters?? Waiters is higher in every case except his TS%, by ONLY 2 percentile.

                      Waiter's is a better driver and passer than DD is. Watch some game footage. I cannot stress this more, stats only can tell you so much


                      I'd also like you to stop cherry-picking Waiters' last 30 games. Every game counts towards his average, not just what's convenient for you. I could do similar BS with DeRozan and only look at the 28 games he played in March and February. He shot 55% TS while averaging 24.3PPG, essentially Kobe Bryant level numbers. Obviously, the other 50+ games count so I'm not going to cherry-pick and do that like you are.

                      There is a REASON I use last 30. Waiters had a bad start and needed to make some attitude changes, he has since started to change and is much better than you think. He is basically putting up DD numbers while shooting better from the field in less mpg

                      You act like ability to get to the FT Line is some asterisk or something that can just be overlooked. But it isn't. It tends to separate elite scorers from good ones (not saying DD is an elite scorer, just pointing out a fact). You can ignore the statistics if you want, but none of them support your claims. I watch Cavaliers games as well, and tbh it's just your personal bias that makes you prefer Waiters or maybe you just like players who have a wide assortment of dribble moves. I prefer players who produce statistically and tangibly personally.

                      You act like the FT line is the end all be all, yet use things like PPS instead of PPP which do not account for them.

                      Yeah that's great that he attempts more shots at the rim, but he shoots them at a below average rate which carries over to his atrocious true shooting percentage of 50.7% (and even worse 49.3% in his rookie year). If you can't even convert layups and dunks efficiently, you're going to have a lot of trouble shaking the "chucker" tag.

                      If you cannot shoot mid range jump shots very efficiently, yet shoot a lot of them, it makes you a chucker
                      imanshumpert wrote:
                      Tbh neither of them is better than the other because they're both crap. The Bucks trade we're absorbing bad salary just for the slight chance that we get a player who will develop to be better than DeMar. In the Cavs trade we're trading DeMar for a worse SG, who actually cannot play the 3 at all because he's 6'4.

                      ummmm...sixth man does not equal me saying SF. God you really hate Waiters don't you? You should watch more of his game.

                      Actually Wiggins could play SG just fine. Paul George had no problem playing that position and Wiggins is both quicker and more agile. He basically has the same body-type as a young TMac who could switch between the 2 and 3 quite seamlessly. It's not like Wiggins is 6'8 250.
                      So you don't think Giannis will have a more complete game than DD? You don't think that he will have a bigger impact on the game on both sides of the ball? I think Giannis will be a better winner than DD will be.

                      Wiggins could play SG...but he will also be perfectly suited for the SF position. The proposed trade makes sense for both teams.

                      Comment


                      • I'm not gonna reply to the bold because it's cumbersome to have to copy paste all of it again. Next time please multi quote...

                        OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                        On 44% eFG%....because DD is not efficient from the field. You are cherry picking a stat.

                        Waiters over the last 30 is at 19ppg on 50% eFG% in 7 minutes less of PT...all the while with the same number of assists and TOVs but less rebounds. Oh, and his TS% is only 2% less over this stretch as well.
                        I'm not cherry picking a stat. And by the way I hope you realize that TS% essentially is points per possession right? Effective field-goal percentage doesn't even take free throws into account and rewards players significantly for being better at shooting the 3. eFG% basically just tells you who the better three-point shooter is (talking about guards here), whereas TS% tells you who scores more efficiently. You can't just entirely remove free-throws from the equation when evaluating scoring efficiency, and that's exactly what eFG% does. There's a reason why it isn't particularly used a lot in most articles that you read.

                        Just to make this more clear to you since you don't seem to understand why TS% is being used instead of eFG%.

                        Basketball Reference wrote:
                        True Shooting Percentage; a measure of shooting effeciency that takes into account 2-point field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.
                        Basketball Reference wrote:
                        Effective Field Goal Percentage; this statistic adjusts for the fact that a 3-point field goal is worth one more point than a 2-point field goal.

                        A 30 game stretch is not "Cherry Picking"
                        Yes it is. I can cherry-pick a 28 game stretch from DeRozan (Feb 1st - Mar 31st) where he averaged 24-5-5 on 55% TS. I've pointed this out already, but you have conveniently chosen to ignore it.

                        Cherry Picking entails that you choose 1 stat that tells a completely different story from the rest of the data. If you look at the whole picture you will see that Waiters is as good as DD. Yes, DD has a higher TS% (only by 2%), but Waiters has a higher eFG% (by 6%), higher 3fg%, higher AST% and the same TOV%....and yet you have the audacity to support that this ONE STAT makes DD SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EFFICIENT....
                        Actually, using a 30 game stretch in an 82 game season as a measure of how good a player actually is, IS cherry-picking. If I were to evaluate DeRozan based on his 28 game stretch from the start of February to the end of March, he would measure out at somewhere near Kobe (his stats during that period are right around Kobe's career numbers). Do you see how foolish that is? Players have hot and cold stretches during the course of the season, the average of that is what matters. That's why ESPN, NBA.com, Synergy, 82Games, Basketball Reference and virtually every major sports statistics site start off by showing you season averages and not hot stretches/cold stretches.

                        Also some of the things you're saying aren't even true. Waiters' AST% (18.4%) is not higher than DeRozan's (19.1%) and his TOV% (12.3%) is not lower than DD's (9.5%). Looking at the whole picture Waiters is not better than DD and it's not just one stat. DeRozan scores more with better efficiency, rebounds the ball better and produces points for his teammates without turning the ball over as much despite seeing regular double-teams and being the focal point of the opposing team's defence. Additionally he holds his opponent to lower PER (only really objective way to measure individual D statistically). Both players typically match up defensively against the weaker wing player so that's a wash I suppose.

                        You, my friend, are not making a very intelligent case
                        I'm not your friend, and you should look in the mirror.

                        So by your reasoning the Toronto Raptors from the first 20 games is exactly the same as the Raptors from the last ~60, because the whole data set includes those first 20 and that nothing can ever change over the course of a season......
                        No that's not what I said, don't twist my words. First of all I don't think that comparison is accurate because you're talking about the majority of the season (60+ games with the Raptors) and trying to compare it to 30 games.

                        Nevertheless I'll entertain the idea. Obviously there are huge differences in performance between the pre-Gay and post-Gay Raptors, that is obvious. And yes like you said the whole data set includes those first 20. That doesn't mean that nothing can change. Clearly something did change (ie. the Raptors record). But unfortunately I don't get to take those 60 odd games and just extrapolate them for the whole season like you're trying to do with Waiters' 30 game stretch. Yeah the Raptors are, what, 41-21 since the Gay trade? Does that mean I get to take that winning percentage, apply it to the whole season and say we're a 54-win team? No it doesn't because we still played those 18 games at the start of the season and they still count towards our record.

                        This is even more true for Waiters' 30 game stretch. Cool, he increased his efficiency a bit and scored at a higher rate for the last 30 games. But the previous 40+ games also count towards his performance, and at the end of the day he's going to finish the season with around a 50% TS% on around 16ppg. So in essence not only is he not scoring at a high rate, he's not even doing so efficiently despite taking more shots per 36 than players like DeRozan, Harden, Curry, etc. I'm not sure how you're going to try and justify that 15.9ppg on 14.2 shots is acceptable under any circumstance.

                        There isn't even any real proof that Waiters is an above average player atm. His AST%/TO% rate is below 2:1. He has extremely high usage but doesn't score efficiently with it whatsoever. His defense is average at best. He's a good 3pt shooter but they don't constitute a large enough percentage of his shots to make him an efficient scorer. He doesn't get to the line at a high rate, nor convert his free throws (68%) when he gets there. He finishes poorly at the rim. Both his oRTG and dRTG are worse than that of his team (which is atrocious in both categories). He also is known for having locker room problems, so even the intangibles aren't there.

                        But yet we should deal DeRozan for him because you don't like how he plays. Once again, thank God you're not Ujiri.

                        30 games is a large enough data set. Pretty sure this was argued at the beginning of the year with DD's 3pt shot...when he could not maintain it for 30 games and regressed to the norm.
                        I've already pointed out several times that it's not large enough to define his whole season. It just means he's played well the last 30 games (just like DeRozan was basically Kobe offensively from the start of February to the end of March --- 28 games). You want to define a player's season, look at what he's done for the whole season.

                        And DD's 3PT shooting, while it did regress from the beginning of the season, isn't really at "the norm". He's shooting over 30% for the first time despite increasing his number of 3PT attempts by a large margin. He's still not at a point where he needs to be though for a 3 to be considered an effective shot for him though (33%+).

                        Btw with your whole 30-games being "large enough" mantra, does it matter if it's 30 consecutive games or not? Why do they have to be in order?

                        DeRozan - November + March:
                        30 Games Played
                        31 3PM
                        86 3PA
                        36% 3PT

                        So above average 3PT shooting on over a make per game. Seems like DD has really become a great 3PT shooter based on those 30 games...

                        Comment


                        • imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                          I'm not gonna reply to the bold because it's cumbersome to have to copy paste all of it again. Next time please multi quote...
                          Fair. I got lazy

                          imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                          I'm not cherry picking a stat. And by the way I hope you realize that TS% essentially is points per possession right? Effective field-goal percentage doesn't even take free throws into account and rewards players significantly for being better at shooting the 3. eFG% basically just tells you who the better three-point shooter is (talking about guards here), whereas TS% tells you who scores more efficiently. You can't just entirely remove free-throws from the equation when evaluating scoring efficiency, and that's exactly what eFG% does. There's a reason why it isn't particularly used a lot in most articles that you read.

                          Just to make this more clear to you since you don't seem to understand why TS% is being used instead of eFG%.
                          However Waiters is more efficient from the field. If DD is not getting to the line...he is really bad.

                          TS% is closer to PPP yes, but still doesn't account for TOVs like PPP does.

                          Elite PPP is around >1.04 (KD-LBJ-Curry-Dirk-Harden-Love-Davis)**

                          Efficient is around 1.00 (Griffin-Jefferson-Anthony-Dragic)

                          Very good is around 0.95 (DD [0.951]-Waiters [0.935]-Lilliard-Cousins)

                          Inefficient starts around about <0.920 (LA-Gay-George)

                          **Gerald Green has been really good. For his case I want a significantly larger data set. But for the rest of the league over the last 30 the data was pretty damn accurate...so I think last 30 is pretty good.

                          imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                          Yes it is. I can cherry-pick a 28 game stretch from DeRozan (Feb 1st - Mar 31st) where he averaged 24-5-5 on 55% TS. I've pointed this out already, but you have conveniently chosen to ignore it.
                          You mean the following "conveniently chosen to ignore it" bit of data that was in my first response to your initial post?

                          OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                          Over the last 30 games:

                          Dion Waiters eFG%: 50.4% TS%: 52.8
                          DeMar DeRozan eFG%: 44.3% TS%: 54.8

                          From the floor, Waiters is a more efficient shooter, however DD does get to the line a lot, which boosts his numbers significantly.
                          Well that's awkward...

                          imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                          Actually, using a 30 game stretch in an 82 game season as a measure of how good a player actually is, IS cherry-picking. If I were to evaluate DeRozan based on his 28 game stretch from the start of February to the end of March, he would measure out at somewhere near Kobe (his stats during that period are right around Kobe's career numbers). Do you see how foolish that is? Players have hot and cold stretches during the course of the season, the average of that is what matters. That's why ESPN, NBA.com, Synergy, 82Games, Basketball Reference and virtually every major sports statistics site start off by showing you season averages and not hot stretches/cold stretches.

                          Also some of the things you're saying aren't even true. Waiters' AST% (18.4%) is not higher than DeRozan's (19.1%) and his TOV% (12.3%) is not lower than DD's (9.5%). Looking at the whole picture Waiters is not better than DD and it's not just one stat. DeRozan scores more with better efficiency, rebounds the ball better and produces points for his teammates without turning the ball over as much despite seeing regular double-teams and being the focal point of the opposing team's defence. Additionally he holds his opponent to lower PER (only really objective way to measure individual D statistically). Both players typically match up defensively against the weaker wing player so that's a wash I suppose.
                          I am comparing DD's best part of the season to Waiter's best part of the season. If there is any bias in that let me know. 30 games is a large enough data set.

                          Where are you getting your numbers? I am using nba.com

                          Waiters AST% = 21.8%
                          DD AST% = 19.1%

                          Waiters TO Ratio = 8.6
                          DD TO Ratio = 8.1

                          Skill wise Waiters has DD beat. I suggest nba.com for some game footage. (again) He is a better driver/handler/passer/shooter, however not everything has translated yet.

                          imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                          I'm not your friend, and you should look in the mirror.
                          Point?

                          You have been cherry picking 1 stat from a larger data set

                          I have been using a smaller data set (although a still sufficiently sized data set) and using multiple stats

                          Who has a more intelligent case? Both have flaws, but one is better.

                          imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                          No that's not what I said, don't twist my words. First of all I don't think that comparison is accurate because you're talking about the majority of the season (60+ games with the Raptors) and trying to compare it to 30 games.
                          It is exactly what you meant. Don't change your opinions now...you're doing soooo well

                          imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                          Nevertheless I'll entertain the idea. Obviously there are huge differences in performance between the pre-Gay and post-Gay Raptors, that is obvious. And yes like you said the whole data set includes those first 20. That doesn't mean that nothing can change. Clearly something did change (ie. the Raptors record). But unfortunately I don't get to take those 60 odd games and just extrapolate them for the whole season like you're trying to do with Waiters' 30 game stretch. Yeah the Raptors are, what, 41-21 since the Gay trade? Does that mean I get to take that winning percentage, apply it to the whole season and say we're a 54-win team? No it doesn't because we still played those 18 games at the start of the season and they still count towards our record.
                          So you are saying that right now we play like a .588 team and not the .661 win team because that is what our record indicates?

                          At the end of the season for seeding into playoffs it counts....but the team that we are heading into playoffs with is actually better...so which is the more accurate number describing how good we are going into playoffs? The .588 team, or the .661 team?

                          Neither answer is completely correct, but one answer is better than the other.

                          imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                          But yet we should deal DeRozan for him because you don't like how he plays. Once again, thank God you're not Ujiri.
                          Have you considered that maybe I really like the way Waiters plays, and not that I don't like how DD plays??

                          I am not going to trade a player just cause I don't like his game, especially when he is playing as well as DD is.

                          I will however, trade for a player whose game I really like. (Hence the Giannis trade, even though he is still largely a question mark)

                          imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                          I've already pointed out several times that it's not large enough to define his whole season. It just means he's played well the last 30 games (just like DeRozan was basically Kobe offensively from the start of February to the end of March --- 28 games). You want to define a player's season, look at what he's done for the whole season.

                          And DD's 3PT shooting, while it did regress from the beginning of the season, isn't really at "the norm". He's shooting over 30% for the first time despite increasing his number of 3PT attempts by a large margin. He's still not at a point where he needs to be though for a 3 to be considered an effective shot for him though (33%+).
                          DD has been very freaking good to end the season. Near Kobe on the offensive side of the ball....and Waiters is doing nearly the same thing over the same stretch...so I don't get why you are down putting Waiters so much?? It is a compliment to both players with how well they are playing.

                          Do you not like his game? Do you think he would make a bad sixth man? Why do you not like Waiters? Or is your only argument going to be "inefficient chucker with attitude problems" in which I respond with "he has improved and is holding his own, as shown by the progression of his season"

                          imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                          Btw with your whole 30-games being "large enough" mantra, does it matter if it's 30 consecutive games or not? Why do they have to be in order?

                          DeRozan - November + March:
                          30 Games Played
                          31 3PM
                          86 3PA
                          36% 3PT

                          So above average 3PT shooting on over a make per game. Seems like DD has really become a great 3PT shooter based on those 30 games...
                          See this is the definition of cherry picking. You chose two segments where DD had hot shooting while ignoring a bad stretch in the middle. The last 30 for both DD and Waiters has had ups and downs and favors neither player over the other. Un-biased. Large enough to paint a pretty accurate picture, yet ignores the rough start for both players (DD really was an inefficient black hole to start the season, so doing last 30 helps him too)

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                          • We're now just repeating the same things over and over. I think you know you aren't making a lot of sense (the responses of other posters besides me to your posts should be a big enough clue).

                            The point is you haven't actually shown why it makes any sense to trade DD for Waiters, and certainly have not shown how Waiters is or will ever be a better player than DeMar.

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                            • can we talk about a proper backup 5? chuck is too undersized

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                              • The fundamental disagreement between the two of you is whether 30 games is a substantial enough sample size.

                                I'd argue no.

                                For a guy with attitude problems for a guy who spends his life in the gym. I better be damn sure he's playing better because even though DD's a little older, I see more improvement for him in store due to his work ethic.
                                "Bruno?
                                Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                                He's terrible."

                                -Superjudge, 7/23

                                Hope you're wrong.

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