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TANK vs ANTI TANK - SUPER THREAD - The Because I Can't Keep Track Edition

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  • p00ka wrote: View Post
    That's twisting the logic, imo. I believe the post you're responding to is countering the opinion that tanking for high picks is the ONLY way to success, by saying it may not be a way at all. As it has not been for some teams.
    here is the post PW responded to

    Theres only 2 direction from noman's land one can go....

    1, chase the victory flag
    2, run towards the tank in hopes of landing as a winner

    the victory flag is about 50,000 miles away for the Raps whereas the tank on the other hand...... hmmm
    0 reference to tanking as the ONLY way to sucess.

    Comment


    • peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
      I don't see any barriers in the other direction, I do however see obstacles, which can be overcome without relying on luck.

      The way I see it, tanking may or may not work, but going for the flag can work if done correctly.
      Good God man....You know when something may or may not work, it means that it also can work if done correctly. There is no difference between any option from that perspective.

      Comment


      • peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
        I don't see any barriers in the other direction, I do however see obstacles, which can be overcome without relying on luck.

        The way I see it, tanking may or may not work, but going for the flag can work if done correctly.

        can work = may or may not work

        barriers = obstacles which can be overcome

        So whats the difference exactly?

        Comment


        • Nilanka wrote: View Post
          How does a 6-11 team make the playoffs without relying on luck?
          Its not impossible

          Comment


          • peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
            Its not impossible
            Impossible without luck....like the rest of the division continuing to suck at historic levels.

            Comment


            • Craiger wrote: View Post
              can work = may or may not work

              barriers = obstacles which can be overcome

              So whats the difference exactly?
              we have to rely on circumstances beyond our control if we go the tanking route.
              We are in full control if we go toward the flag, and the only barrier I can see that way is the team themself

              and the barriers I'm talking about here are things that you can't get through at all, there is no where to go but to turn back in that case with going the tanking route.
              Last edited by peanutwoozle; Fri Dec 6, 2013, 04:41 PM.

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              • Craiger wrote: View Post
                here is the post PW responded to



                0 reference to tanking as the ONLY way to sucess.
                You're technically absolutely correct, which is why I referred to "the opinion" (that has been expressed often in this back and forth spanning multiple threads), rather than saying he was responding to only that particular post.

                But I could be wrong.

                Comment


                • Axel wrote: View Post
                  We all cry as he laughs all the way to the bank
                  We all boo as he laughs all the way to the bank
                  "Stop eating your sushi."
                  "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                  "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                  - Jack Armstrong

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                  • peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
                    If it nets a good return, why not?
                    Bet you're a big hit in Vegas at the craps tables.

                    Comment


                    • peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
                      we have to rely on circumstances beyond our control if we go the tanking route.
                      We are in full control if we go toward the flag, and the only barrier I can see that way is the team themself

                      and the barriers I'm talking about here are things that you can't get through at all, there is no where to go but to turn back in that case with going the tanking route.


                      I don't see how we rely on circumstances beyond our control if we do proper rebuild scratch.... Yu ll have a high pick(1-5) cap space(which you'll decide who to sign) and prospects and picks(which you decide who to trade with)... I understand the pick landing on a high pick has some luck to it... But so is sticking with this roster and making tweaks... For example we all agree how good of a player Gay was.. And we traded for him and EVERYONE thought we are making that next leap... And yu know how that turned out.... There's luck involved in both direction... Trading for new players involves luck... You have to hope and pray they mesh with the current roster... You have to hope and pray they stay the same as they were in their previous team... Everything involves a small piece of luck... It's up to the GM and the scouting staffs to mitigate that risk.... And make the right pick.. And trade for the right player... Tweak the roster the right way.... So don't overlook the option of bottoming out one year for the good of the team solely cuz it involves "luck" afterall, all of the raptors playoff appearances came on the heels of 4th and 5th lottery picks.... Deny it...


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                      • ball4life wrote: View Post
                        I don't see how we rely on circumstances beyond our control if we do proper rebuild scratch.... Yu ll have a high pick(1-5) cap space(which you'll decide who to sign) and prospects and picks(which you decide who to trade with)... I understand the pick landing on a high pick has some luck to it... But so is sticking with this roster and making tweaks... For example we all agree how good of a player Gay was.. And we traded for him and EVERYONE thought we are making that next leap... And yu know how that turned out.... There's luck involved in both direction... Trading for new players involves luck... You have to hope and pray they mesh with the current roster... You have to hope and pray they stay the same as they were in their previous team... Everything involves a small piece of luck... It's up to the GM and the scouting staffs to mitigate that risk.... And make the right pick.. And trade for the right player... Tweak the roster the right way.... So don't overlook the option of bottoming out one year for the good of the team solely cuz it involves "luck" afterall, all of the raptors playoff appearances came on the heels of 4th and 5th lottery picks.... Deny it...


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                        "option of bottoming out one year for the good of the team solely cuz it involves "luck" afterall, all of the raptors playoff appearances came on the heels of 4th and 5th lottery picks"

                        One year? Well, that's exactly what was already done 3 years ago. Finished with 3rd best chance of winning the lottery. Raptor "luck" dropped the pick to 5th. How's that pleasing you so far? You mean one more year? How many years should that "one year" go on for? Tried bottoming out the next year too, while Jonas stayed in Europe, only the gang of scrub one year (or 10 day) rentals didn't buy into tanking (as players can't and won't), and only got the 8th pick in the lottery. Both those lottery picks have 1 year under their belt, but you want just one more year? Hmmm, year before those two, didn't try and trade for talent either and landed 13th pick (Davis). Year before that, same thing and landed DD, 9th pick. One year, huh. Was already in the lottery, including a 3rd worst record already, 4 times.

                        But blow it all up and we're sure to have lottery and pick luck this time? What if we tank, but players don't, as usual, wind up with 7th worst record, the 9th worst wins the lottery, like Rose going to the Bulls, or 8th worst wins it, like Irving the year we drafted Jv after dropping 2 spots, we wind up with the 8th pick again. Do you really think the 8th pick is going to be a sure fire franchise changer?

                        Oh right, "do it the right way". Sounds simple. You don't think far more experienced and knowledgeable basketball minds than any of us have been trying to do it the right way? One pick, after gutting a team, has never won anything for that team. Oh, Cavs got to finals once, but where are they now? Rebuilding again after LBJ bolted. Dwight? Gone elsewhere too. CP3? Gone elsewhere too. Melo? Gone elsewhere. Griffin? Well, he can dunk! In the past 20 years, has any team "done it the right way" by gutting their team? I don't know any that have won any rings, and only two that have each reached the finals once. So what exactly is this "doing it the right way" that everyone talks about as if it's a step 1-2-3 thing, cuz nobody in the NBA has won anything with it yet, and only two teams have even come close with this apparent method. Note SAS did NOT gut and bottom out, period.

                        Comment


                        • Why Tank: Let's Learn from 2007.

                          How we can learn from 2007: An argument for tanking.

                          In 2007, the Leastern Conference was once again, at its finest. And by finest, I mean most terrible. During the 2007 NBA season, the Eastern Conference featured the decline of Shaq, Ben Wallace, Jason Kidd, and Steph Marbury. The Pacers were suffering the fallout from the ‘Malice,’ Chicago was led by Kirk Hinrich…the first time, and Boston hadn’t even begun to dream of the Big Three yet. In summary: the East was horrendous.

                          But how does this relate to our 2013 Raptors?
                          I’ll tell you.

                          During that 2007 season, the Toronto Raptors won the Atlantic Division behind the almighty triumvirate that is T.J. Ford, Jorge Garbajosa, and Anthony Parker. We all proclaimed Bryan Colangelo to be a genius, parades were thrown celebrating Joey Graham’s bench contributions (ok, I got carried away here), and all was well in Raptor Land.
                          …Until two years later. When the Raptors once again found themselves occupying the dregs of the Eastern Conference, finishing third last.

                          So what does this teach us?
                          Well, many who are against the Raptors tanking this season proclaim that we should instead push for one of the lower playoff spots, in the hopes of getting that ever important (and quite subjectively intangible) playoff experience for our players. Yet, besides the fact that most of the current Raptors aren’t under contract for the foreseeable future to put that experience to use, we must also learn from 2007. When we pushed for the playoffs, and grabbed the 3rd overall seed (thanks to divisional seeding), and did nothing in the playoffs. Or perhaps the next year, 2008, when we again grabbed a playoff spot, only to again bow out early. A mere two years later, we were in the cellar again, no better for our precious “experience,” and without the franchise player we could have had by bottoming out.

                          However, let’s look at then-Seattle, who finished 5th last in the league, only to receive the second pick in that year’s draft. In what was an incredibly weak draft they managed to land Kevin Durant. The rest is history. Is this selective memory? Yes, as I ignored some of the other horrible draft choices that were available to that year’s bottom five, however I believe this to be offset by the incredible strength of this year’s draft, where scouts and GMs alike agree that there are 6 or 7 franchise altering players available.

                          So let’s learn from 2007. Instead of pushing for a few quick playoff exits and a trip back to where we stand now, let’s do the right thing, and tank. And perhaps grab a franchise-altering player that we have been begging from since Vincent Lamar back in the day.

                          That’s why we tank. Now the question remains, will the Raptors learn from their own recent history, or will we resign ourselves to a return to this frustrating plateau.
                          TANK...OR DIE TRYING.

                          Comment


                          • p00ka wrote: View Post
                            "option of bottoming out one year for the good of the team solely cuz it involves "luck" afterall, all of the raptors playoff appearances came on the heels of 4th and 5th lottery picks"

                            One year? Well, that's exactly what was already done 3 years ago. Finished with 3rd best chance of winning the lottery. Raptor "luck" dropped the pick to 5th. How's that pleasing you so far? You mean one more year? How many years should that "one year" go on for? Tried bottoming out the next year too, while Jonas stayed in Europe, only the gang of scrub one year (or 10 day) rentals didn't buy into tanking (as players can't and won't), and only got the 8th pick in the lottery. Both those lottery picks have 1 year under their belt, but you want just one more year? Hmmm, year before those two, didn't try and trade for talent either and landed 13th pick (Davis). Year before that, same thing and landed DD, 9th pick. One year, huh. Was already in the lottery, including a 3rd worst record already, 4 times.

                            But blow it all up and we're sure to have lottery and pick luck this time? What if we tank, but players don't, as usual, wind up with 7th worst record, the 9th worst wins the lottery, like Rose going to the Bulls, or 8th worst wins it, like Irving the year we drafted Jv after dropping 2 spots, we wind up with the 8th pick again. Do you really think the 8th pick is going to be a sure fire franchise changer?

                            Oh right, "do it the right way". Sounds simple. You don't think far more experienced and knowledgeable basketball minds than any of us have been trying to do it the right way? One pick, after gutting a team, has never won anything for that team. Oh, Cavs got to finals once, but where are they now? Rebuilding again after LBJ bolted. Dwight? Gone elsewhere too. CP3? Gone elsewhere too. Melo? Gone elsewhere. Griffin? Well, he can dunk! In the past 20 years, has any team "done it the right way" by gutting their team? I don't know any that have won any rings, and only two that have each reached the finals once. So what exactly is this "doing it the right way" that everyone talks about as if it's a step 1-2-3 thing, cuz nobody in the NBA has won anything with it yet, and only two teams have even come close with this apparent method. Note SAS did NOT gut and bottom out, period.

                            I think people are missing the point of the tank, at least from how I see it.

                            The idea, for me, in tanking is to start your build from a solid foundation. Do we currently have any players that we'd consider as foundational pieces? Sure, maybe JV, DD could have been but I think his growth/growing frustration will prevent him from being a cornerstone (bad timing bro). Other than that what is our foundation? Maybe throw Amir in the mix but he's an old 26, so I'm not sure he'll be around when were competitive. We need to strip this team down to the bare bones and see what there is to work with. The BC patch jobs don't work and they don't win championships. Sure maybe the teams listed above didn't work out great and win championships and sure some of the stars may have fled, but most of those teams are still better than the Raps. Besides how many different teams have won the championship in the past 10 years? 4 or 5?? Saying that the tank doesn't work so we should abandon it is kinda ridiculous because what proven system does work? The spurs model is great but it was built on a solid foundation, everything from the front office to the trainers and coaches scouts then players. Ujiri is evaluating our foundation right now, and I believe by the time this year is out he will strip it to the bones to start building properly for the first time.
                            Sunny ways my friends, sunny ways
                            Because its 2015

                            Comment


                            • Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
                              I think people are missing the point of the tank, at least from how I see it.

                              The idea, for me, in tanking is to start your build from a solid foundation. Do we currently have any players that we'd consider as foundational pieces? Sure, maybe JV, DD could have been but I think his growth/growing frustration will prevent him from being a cornerstone (bad timing bro). Other than that what is our foundation? Maybe throw Amir in the mix but he's an old 26, so I'm not sure he'll be around when were competitive. We need to strip this team down to the bare bones and see what there is to work with. The BC patch jobs don't work and they don't win championships. Sure maybe the teams listed above didn't work out great and win championships and sure some of the stars may have fled, but most of those teams are still better than the Raps. Besides how many different teams have won the championship in the past 10 years? 4 or 5?? Saying that the tank doesn't work so we should abandon it is kinda ridiculous because what proven system does work? The spurs model is great but it was built on a solid foundation, everything from the front office to the trainers and coaches scouts then players. Ujiri is evaluating our foundation right now, and I believe by the time this year is out he will strip it to the bones to start building properly for the first time.
                              I agree with you.

                              If I didn't know better I'd swear a lot of posters have built their house directly on the beach.

                              Comment


                              • I don't see why everyone seems to think that the original article is so good. It starts by making the argument that drafting all-stars primarily happens in the top-10 of the draft, and then backs this up with some stats. He then goes on to do the same for various major awards.
                                But from that point, there's zero connection in the article between drafting all-stars or award-winning players, and winning championships (or even contending for championships). Toronto has drafted all-stars numerous times in the past, but it's entirely failed to net them anything close to contender status. How many all-stars do you need on your team in order to win championships on average? How did teams acquire their all-stars, and were they all-stars prior to arriving or only after arriving (or did they only become all-stars after winning championships)? How long were teams that drafted their all-stars able to retain them? These are the sorts of questions that need to be answered to address the anti-tank concerns.
                                I'm not saying that the conclusions in the article are wrong, just that the article entirely fails to make the argument that it claims to make.

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