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  • #31
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Because teams that trade marquee players typically want the following:

    1) cap relief
    2) prospects on rookie deals
    3) draft picks

    Raps can't offer guaranteed cap relief outside Lowry; prospects with high ceilings except JV (but even Brooklyn kept Lopez); but could do draft picks.
    Also that method is not sustAinable if trading for older vets. Brooklyn has no picks (without other team having rigt to swap) and no cap space for a long time.

    Comment


    • #32
      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
      I can't speak for others, but I'm not arguing the importance of the natural leadership abilities or his ability to help permeate the Spurs' desired culture/identity through to his teammates. I think you're just underestimating the impact of talent. You could easily say that all things being equal with regards to personality/character, he wouldn't command the respect of his teammates without having also earned it at least partly through his contribution on the court. Talent and character go hand-in-hand in order to become a leader among men.
      Yes, but he isn't the leader in San antonio. The coach is.

      Comment


      • #33
        Craig wrote: View Post
        Yes, but he isn't the leader in San antonio. The coach is.

        Of course it starts with Pop, but instilling such a culture is a trickle-down process. Whether Robinson or Duncan, having a high-talent & high-character team leader acting as mentor to the young players, has been a critical part of SA's success (in terms of getting players to buy-in to the team concept and SA team culture).

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        • #34
          Craig wrote: View Post
          Yes, but he isn't the leader in San antonio. The coach is.

          worth noting:

          In addition to being named the league’s best power forward — despite having moved to center, a position where he finished third, several seasons ago — Duncan was honored as the league’s best leader with 30 percent of the vote to edge long-time rival Kevin Garnett.
          While Popovich and his assistants huddled on the court during the stoppage, Parker and Tim Duncan coached up their teammates on what to do in the ensuing defensive possession.
          "He is getting older, just like you are, and all of us, but Tim Duncan is still the backbone of the program," said Spurs Coach Gregg Popovich. "He's the guy we build around. He sets the tone for us.Tony [Parker] andManu [Ginobili] know that full well."
          “It’s fun coaching him,” Popovich said. “I’ve got my hands hanging on his coattail … and he just keeps dragging me around wherever I’m at. Every time I walk around the house once a month, I tell my wife, ‘Say thank you, Tim.’ I’m serious.”

          Comment


          • #35
            Matt52 wrote: View Post
            Because teams that trade marquee players typically want the following:

            1) cap relief
            2) prospects on rookie deals
            3) draft picks

            Raps can't offer guaranteed cap relief outside Lowry; prospects with high ceilings except JV (but even Brooklyn kept Lopez); but could do draft picks.
            Matt52 wrote: View Post
            Also that method is not sustAinable if trading for older vets. Brooklyn has no picks (without other team having rigt to swap) and no cap space for a long time.
            But I don't think he was talking about trading for marquee players. I think he was talking about going after them in free agency.

            Could I throw out a 3rd option, just for conversation sake? Look at the Brooklyn Nets model. Go heavy into the luxury to sign a bunch of all-stars, quality FA's etc, and build a team to win now.

            With a 2014 free agent class that includes Melo, Munroe, Bledsoe and (why not?) Dirk, why not go for it? Heck, it's not like Mayor Ford hasn't put Tdot on the map.
            See the bold, although I believe he made a mistake by saying Brooklyn Nets model because they actually traded for most of their guys (except DWill(FA) and Lopez(draft)). The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.

            Comment


            • #36
              Nosike wrote: View Post
              But I don't think he was talking about trading for marquee players. I think he was talking about going after them in free agency.



              See the bold, although I believe he made a mistake by saying Brooklyn Nets model because they actually traded for most of their guys (except DWill(FA) and Lopez(draft)). The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.
              Given that marquee NBA FAs have never come to Toronto, and almost never in other weak markets in general, I'm not sure it should be seen as a feasible plan. ie. "Why not go for it?" Because its a low odds proposition

              Regardless, I think Matt52 was pointing out thats not what Brooklyn did. It was all trades.
              Last edited by Craiger; Wed Nov 27, 2013, 12:42 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Just to add. Idk how Ujiri would do it, but if he could ship out most of our long-term deals (Gay, Fields, Lowry, Novak etc) we could tank and still be set up nicely for the draft. With only the following contracts on the books:

                DeMar: 9.5M
                Amir: 7M
                Val: 3.7M
                Hansbrough:3.3M
                Ross: 2.8M
                2014 1st Round Pick (Exum?):3M

                Total: 29.3M

                Leaves us over 30M to spend in free agency, which means we could actually sign Gordon Hayward and Monroe potentially.

                Exum/DD/Hayward/Monroe/Val looks dope to me.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Craiger wrote: View Post
                  worth noting:
                  Such a solid team.

                  Everyone is humble and praising the next guy.

                  Class act all around.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Nosike wrote: View Post
                    But I don't think he was talking about trading for marquee players. I think he was talking about going after them in free agency.



                    See the bold, although I believe he made a mistake by saying Brooklyn Nets model because they actually traded for most of their guys (except DWill(FA) and Lopez(draft)). The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.
                    Deron Williams was a trade. Lopez was a draft pick back to the awful Nets days.

                    The FA plan is something you can talk about if you 'tank' and by tank I mean clear contracts for cap space.

                    If your plan is to build a team through free agency while keeping this core, you are limited to the MLE/mini-MLE or minimum contracts. If you use the full MLE you are hardcapped at $4M above the salary cap.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Nosike wrote: View Post
                      Just to add. Idk how Ujiri would do it, but if he could ship out most of our long-term deals (Gay, Fields, Lowry, Novak etc) we could tank and still be set up nicely for the draft. With only the following contracts on the books:

                      DeMar: 9.5M
                      Amir: 7M
                      Val: 3.7M
                      Hansbrough:3.3M
                      Ross: 2.8M
                      2014 1st Round Pick (Exum?):3M

                      Total: 29.3M

                      Leaves us over 30M to spend in free agency, which means we could actually sign Gordon Hayward and Monroe potentially.

                      Exum/DD/Hayward/Monroe/Val looks dope to me.
                      There is nothing wrong with that idea in my opinion (other than banking on Utah or Detroit not to match offers) but that is not how Brooklyn built their team.

                      Free agency is tough enough trying to get a player to agree to come to your team for a set amount but throw in another team having the ability to match any offer sheet and suddenly it is a serious obstacle to overcome in planning.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        Deron Williams was a trade. Lopez was a draft pick back to the awful Nets days.

                        The FA plan is something you can talk about if you 'tank' and by tank I mean clear contracts for cap space.

                        If your plan is to build a team through free agency while keeping this core, you are limited to the MLE/mini-MLE or minimum contracts. If you use the full MLE you are hardcapped at $4M above the salary cap.
                        I think you're misunderstanding me. Look at what I said:

                        The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.
                        And then look at my earlier post about the "plan":

                        Just to add. Idk how Ujiri would do it, but if he could ship out most of our long-term deals (Gay, Fields, Lowry, Novak etc) we could tank and still be set up nicely for the draft. With only the following contracts on the books:

                        DeMar: 9.5M
                        Amir: 7M
                        Val: 3.7M
                        Hansbrough:3.3M
                        Ross: 2.8M
                        2014 1st Round Pick (Exum?):3M

                        Total: 29.3M

                        Leaves us over 30M to spend in free agency, which means we could actually sign Gordon Hayward and Monroe potentially.

                        Exum/DD/Hayward/Monroe/Val looks dope to me.
                        To me a free agent plan could directly follow a tank this year.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Nosike wrote: View Post
                          I think you're misunderstanding me. Look at what I said:



                          And then look at my earlier post about the "plan":



                          To me a free agent plan could directly follow a tank this year.
                          This is Pele's original post:

                          Pele wrote: View Post
                          Nice thread. I like how you're breaking down the "Tank vs Anti-tank" and looking at it more thoughtfully and thoroughly.

                          Could I throw out a 3rd option, just for conversation sake? Look at the Brooklyn Nets model. Go heavy into the luxury to sign a bunch of all-stars, quality FA's etc, and build a team to win now.

                          With a 2014 free agent class that includes Melo, Munroe, Bledsoe and (why not?) Dirk, why not go for it? Heck, it's not like Mayor Ford hasn't put Tdot on the map.

                          It would be expensive, require some thrifty trading for good back-ups (something we currently lack)

                          Try to keep Amir, Hansborough, Ross, Val.....and deal the rest.

                          Any thoughts as to this approach? (btw, I do believe that the Nets will turn it around as the year progresses, bodies get healthy and the playoffs come onto the radar)
                          The Brooklyn Nets model was draft a top C (Lopez) and sign to extension using Bird Rights; trade for expensive talent (Joe Johnson) and resign players traded for expensive talent (Williams, Wallace, Humphries); trade resigned players for more expensive players (Terry, PP, KG); use exceptions (minimum and mini-MLE i..e no more than $3M) to sign players.

                          My reply highlighting how Brooklyn was built and the CBA:

                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          There is the CBA to work around though.

                          They have not signed any free agents to anything but an exception.

                          It was all trades and they resignings with Bird Rights.

                          This is what you've done when you've acquired your core or trade assets to add to your established core.

                          What are the Raptors going to get in return for their spare parts right now?
                          Your reply which is a great one but the conversation was about Brooklyn and building like them:

                          Nosike wrote: View Post
                          Question. Isn't the whole premise of your tanking philosophy that we can and should ship out guys like Gay and Lowry for cap relief and picks.

                          Why are you suggesting that wouldn't be a possibility if we wanted to go after marquee free-agents instead of tanking?


                          Tbh I don't see anything wrong with either strategy. If we were actually able to ship out Lowry and Gay for cap relief AND tank, I'd have no qualms with drafting a Smart or Exum and then going after Gordon Hayward (who would be an excellent pairing with DD on the wing btw) in free agency.
                          I had a few more replies about how the Nets were built.

                          Your post talking about going after players in free agency rather than trading:

                          Nosike wrote: View Post
                          But I don't think he was talking about trading for marquee players. I think he was talking about going after them in free agency.



                          See the bold, although I believe he made a mistake by saying Brooklyn Nets model because they actually traded for most of their guys (except DWill(FA) and Lopez(draft)). The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.
                          And that is the entire point: Brooklyn were built through trades and Bird Rights.



                          Nosike wrote: View Post
                          But I don't think he was talking about trading for marquee players. I think he was talking about going after them in free agency.



                          See the bold, although I believe he made a mistake by saying Brooklyn Nets model because they actually traded for most of their guys (except DWill(FA) and Lopez(draft)). The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.
                          He was talking about building the Raptors like the Nets. Bringing anything else in to the conversation is not talking about the same thing. So yeah sure your plan/ideas looks good.

                          Personally I'd rather go another year in the draft ('15) since they already have 2 '16 picks and focus on free agency in 2015 and 2016.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Craiger wrote: View Post
                            Given that marquee NBA FAs have never come to Toronto, and almost never in other weak markets in general, I'm not sure it should be seen as a feasible plan. ie. "Why not go for it?" Because its a low odds proposition

                            Regardless, I think Matt52 was pointing out thats not what Brooklyn did. It was all trades.
                            I just reviewed Brooklyn's moves last summer, yeah...my bad...Brooklyn was built on trades.

                            However, they did sign FA Alan Anderson....so I'm not completely out to lunch. Lol.

                            I guess I was curious as to going in the direction of signing veteran FA's and winning now, rather than pinning our hopes to the draft and looking 5 years down the road.

                            Either way, with our roster...I guess Masai has his work cut out for him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Also,

                              There's a lot of teams in tank mode, it seems. (Boston, Utah, Sac) There's also a lot of teams with a "win now" approach. (Miami, OKC, Indy)

                              The Raptors, as we all feared, are stuck hopelessly in between. If the tank for the 2014 draft gets too crowded, why not go the other direction and get veterans that give us a good chance to sneak a division championship in the next couple years.

                              That was kind of my thinking.

                              Btw, I really appreciate Matt52's breakdown and analysis. He's why I ask these questions in the first place.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                This is Pele's original post:



                                The Brooklyn Nets model was draft a top C (Lopez) and sign to extension using Bird Rights; trade for expensive talent (Joe Johnson) and resign players traded for expensive talent (Williams, Wallace, Humphries); trade resigned players for more expensive players (Terry, PP, KG); use exceptions (minimum and mini-MLE i..e no more than $3M) to sign players.

                                My reply highlighting how Brooklyn was built and the CBA:



                                Your reply which is a great one but the conversation was about Brooklyn and building like them:



                                I had a few more replies about how the Nets were built.

                                Your post talking about going after players in free agency rather than trading:



                                And that is the entire point: Brooklyn were built through trades and Bird Rights.





                                He was talking about building the Raptors like the Nets. Bringing anything else in to the conversation is not talking about the same thing. So yeah sure your plan/ideas looks good.

                                Personally I'd rather go another year in the draft ('15) since they already have 2 '16 picks and focus on free agency in 2015 and 2016.
                                I think the issue here is that he said Nets model. He obviously meant build via free agency, but failed to realize that the Nets didn't really do that. Which is clear from him saying " sign a bunch of all-stars, quality FA's etc"

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