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The case for Rudy Gay to the Raptors: Heisley speaks to rumours (277)

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  • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I seriously doubt Bargnani is going anywhere. I could see Calderon being moved, especially if the Raps expect to sign Nash as his replacement.

    I could see the Raps offering DD/Davis & JJ & #8 for Gay (and hopefully #25). If Calderon is included in the deal, it would likely need to be a 3-team trade, since Memphis really doesn't need Calderon and acquiring him would negate the savings from trading away Gay.
    Calderon still gives Memphis value as an expiring contract (or a trade deadline asset).

    Comment


    • Nilanka wrote: View Post
      Calderon still gives Memphis value as an expiring contract (or a trade deadline asset).
      On the surface I agree with you, but if their primary motivating factor for trading Gay is freeing up cap space to re-sign Mayo and others, then acquiring Calderon seems unlikely. Next season, Gay will make $16.46M. Calderon will make $10.56M and DD/Davis/JJ will make between $2.21M - $3.35M. Unless Memphis plans to flip Calderon (or Conley), I can't envision a trade going down that includes Calderon, without at least one other team being involved.

      Comment


      • Nilanka wrote: View Post
        I realize that staying the course, and building primarily through the draft is the safest approach. But we all know Colangelo isn't going that route, so I don't see the purpose in discussing a scenario that has zero possibility of happening.

        Gay's contract is a large one. But 3 years isn't that daunting of a commitment. He's still a young player, who was asked to share the ball (a lot) in Memphis. He's an underrated defender, a good rebounder, and a closer. He'll be the first wing (since Carter) capable of creating offense in ISO situations. I honestly believe that with Gay as a centrepiece, the rest of the roster could be rounded into form in the next 3 years.

        Will we ever be a championship team this way? It's hard to tell. We don't know what Valanciunas will eventually turn into. Maybe we get another 1st round pick back in a Gay trade. Maybe our 37th pick turns into a sleeper. Maybe Nash joins us, brings us back into the playoffs, gets the league talking about Toronto in a positive light (for once), and maybe, potential free agents start looking at this team a little more realistically.

        Do the stars have to align perfectly? Absolutely! But I could say the same about the draft.
        But that's my point. Everyone was told that the "safe" approach was the way thye were going and 1 year into this approach it's back to hitting homeruns? Even you have acknowleged that the draft is the better option for the Raps moving forward. Instead of shrugging our collective shoulders and just acknowledging Colangelo's lies, the fans need to stay away from supporting this foolishness and voice their opinions of this epic failure of this current GM to manage a team.

        We did this already folks. Fans didn't want to pay Bosh the maximum and were happy about him leaving but are fine with paying Gay just about the same? lol

        In 5 years time when it plays out the same way is everyone going to then say, "not it makes sense to do it the right way"?

        The sras need to align right in any scenario that is good (draft, trade or FA) but i nthe larket we are in, we know we should be the type of team trying to build through the draft. This building a team on the fly stuff will only end back where you have started with nothing really to show for it.

        Colangelo lies to fanbase year after year and it's all good, because we the sheep, love to follow.

        Comment


        • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
          I seriously doubt Bargnani is going anywhere. I could see Calderon being moved, especially if the Raps expect to sign Nash as his replacement.

          I could see the Raps offering DD/Davis & JJ & #8 for Gay (and hopefully #25). If Calderon is included in the deal, it would likely need to be a 3-team trade, since Memphis really doesn't need Calderon and acquiring him would negate the savings from trading away Gay.
          Of course Bargnani's not going anywhere.

          Bryan Colangelo is GM of the Raptors and his ego is bigger than the long term interests and success of this franchise.

          Comment


          • sleepz wrote: View Post
            But that's my point. Everyone was told that the "safe" approach was the way thye were going and 1 year into this approach it's back to hitting homeruns? Even you have acknowleged that the draft is the better option for the Raps moving forward. Instead of shrugging our collective shoulders and just acknowledging Colangelo's lies, the fans need to stay away from supporting this foolishness and voice their opinions of this epic failure of this current GM to manage a team.

            We did this already folks. Fans didn't want to pay Bosh the maximum and were happy about him leaving but are fine with paying Gay just about the same? lol

            In 5 years time when it plays out the same way is everyone going to then say, "not it makes sense to do it the right way"?

            The sras need to align right in any scenario that is good (draft, trade or FA) but i nthe larket we are in, we know we should be the type of team trying to build through the draft. This building a team on the fly stuff will only end back where you have started with nothing really to show for it.

            Colangelo lies to fanbase year after year and it's all good, because we the sheep, love to follow.
            But the Raps could trade #8 and rotation players for Gay, and then still have options for getting back into the lottery (ie: NO rumor, Houston rumor, or moving up from #25 that they hopefully would get back from Memphis). Given the rumors that are out there, this is a season where the Raps might not have to choose between "trade pick for homerun" and "draft rookie"... they could quite possibly be able to do both! That's the ultimate win-win!

            Comment


            • LOL....the crazy times we were jesting about mid season are here and along with it extreme opinions based on rumours being passed off as inside information (Philly Insider). Could it just be possible that the Raptors are gauging the market/price of players including our own?....as well as fan reaction and also elicit offers from other teams thru knowledge of the level of talent being discussed?

              We'll all have a chance to cast an opinion on the moves, draft and ultimately BC, say, sometime later in July. In the meantime I am enjoying the ride. There is nothing we can do about BC ...he is in charge right now. We can tar and feather him when all is said and done. My one hope is that the 8th pick be only used to move up in the draft (2-4).

              Comment


              • sleepz wrote: View Post
                But that's my point. Everyone was told that the "safe" approach was the way thye were going and 1 year into this approach it's back to hitting homeruns? Even you have acknowleged that the draft is the better option for the Raps moving forward. Instead of shrugging our collective shoulders and just acknowledging Colangelo's lies, the fans need to stay away from supporting this foolishness and voice their opinions of this epic failure of this current GM to manage a team.

                We did this already folks. Fans didn't want to pay Bosh the maximum and were happy about him leaving but are fine with paying Gay just about the same? lol

                In 5 years time when it plays out the same way is everyone going to then say, "not it makes sense to do it the right way"?

                The sras need to align right in any scenario that is good (draft, trade or FA) but i nthe larket we are in, we know we should be the type of team trying to build through the draft. This building a team on the fly stuff will only end back where you have started with nothing really to show for it.

                Colangelo lies to fanbase year after year and it's all good, because we the sheep, love to follow.
                I don't see acquiring Rudy Gay in the same light as previous homerun swings of O'Neal and Turkoglu.

                O'Neal was coming off major injury. He had a $20M dollar contract over 2 years. He was 30 years old. Bosh was also a max contract on the roster at the same time and desperation to appease Bosh.

                Turkoglu was coming off a NBA Finals run and was regarded as one of the biggest free agents of the summer. He was 30 years old. He was signed to a large, 5 year contract that would have taken him to 35 years of age had he stayed the entire contract. Bosh was a max contract at the time and there was desperation to appease him.

                Gay has 3 years left on his deal. He is healthy (as far as is known). He is just turning 26 in August and entering his prime years. There is a possibility he could raise his game another notch. There is no max contract on the roster at this time. Also Toronto will have a starting lineup and 3 solid reserves taking the Raptors up to the salary cap of $58M - assuming just the minimum salary is sent out to consummate the trade. Adding 3 minimum contracts gives the Raptors about $10M to round out their roster before hitting the luxury tax. After this season, the Raptors will no longer enjoy cap space and will be limited to exceptions regardless of if Gay was on the roster or not.


                Suggesting that the draft is the safe approach is not entirely true without tremendous luck. The draft is one approach. The Raptors have 4 lottery picks in the last 4 years - where has that got them? So a 6th is added, then a 7th? That does not sound like progress. It sounds like waiting to be a winner as time goes by. If JV is truly a franchise C, the Raptors have guys who will still be under 30 when he is creating terror in the middle. Also it appears there is opportunity for the Raptors to add a draft pick that could net them the player they desire at 8 later.


                So, in conclusion, I do not think a trade for Gay is similar to previous (botched) homerun swings by Colangelo. Also there lies an opportunity for the Raptors to have its cake and eat it too with an elite wing added and a possible lottery pick.

                Comment


                • Couldn't have said it better myself.
                  If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                  Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                  Comment


                  • I am with ya Matt. I think the same folks saying don't go get Gay will be the same ones wondering why we do not have our exceptions or TPE if we don't get him and we are stuck with vet minimum players.

                    Comment


                    • sleepz: if Colangelo goes and gets AI, then I agree 99.9% with you.

                      Comment


                      • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        But the Raps could trade #8 and rotation players for Gay, and then still have options for getting back into the lottery (ie: NO rumor, Houston rumor, or moving up from #25 that they hopefully would get back from Memphis). Given the rumors that are out there, this is a season where the Raps might not have to choose between "trade pick for homerun" and "draft rookie"... they could quite possibly be able to do both! That's the ultimate win-win!
                        There are only rumours of this and we do not know how realistic they are.

                        Secondly it will not erase the fact you have close to $30 million invested in 2 players that have never been to an all-star game but have been in the league for 5+ years. Gay I know can possibly get there because he's at least been within a sniff before but as much as people hope to see Bargnani bloom, I don't forsee that happening. Can Gay even fit into what Casey wants to do defensively? A lot of questions to me and it seems like it's all being done in an effort to accelerate the process in getting good but you do that when you have a solid foundation, not a collection of average players like DeRozan and Bargnani as your stars for crying out loud!

                        It's so ironic that they are are fine with acquiring a player on a huge deal that they could have drafted a long time ago at a way better bargain than what they are about to spend now.

                        Forget the "rebuild" that was just something to say in the event of a bad year. Now we are 'building' or 'retooling' with our collection of subpar youngsters and scraps from other teams.

                        Hoping that one day a different GM will see the light and get it right.

                        Comment


                        • sleepz wrote: View Post
                          There are only rumours of this and we do not know how realistic they are.

                          Secondly it will not erase the fact you have close to $30 million invested in 2 players that have never been to an all-star game but have been in the league for 5+ years. Gay I know can possibly get there because he's at least been within a sniff before but as much as people hope to see Bargnani bloom, I don't forsee that happening. Can Gay even fit into what Casey wants to do defensively? A lot of questions to me and it seems like it's all being done in an effort to accelerate the process in getting good but you do that when you have a solid foundation, not a collection of average players like DeRozan and Bargnani as your stars for crying out loud!

                          It's so ironic that they are are fine with acquiring a player on a huge deal that they could have drafted a long time ago at a way better bargain than what they are about to spend now.

                          Forget the "rebuild" that was just something to say in the event of a bad year. Now we are 'building' or 'retooling' with our collection of subpar youngsters and scraps from other teams.

                          Hoping that one day a different GM will see the light and get it right.
                          I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think I can debate with you if you consider Bargnani a "subpar youngster" and Gay a "scrap from other teams".

                          Frankly, I think that Bargnani would have been an allstar this season if not for his injury. Gay is a proven commodity that has often at least been in the allstar conversation, who has always been a solid contributor at both ends of the court. Bargnani will be 27 and Gay will be 26 this season, so I would argue they are both just now hitting their prime and I think both still have room for futher improvement. You add Valanciunas and potentially another 1st round pick to this team, that would still include DeRozan (will only be 23 this season), who has lots of room for improvement (and I've been as hard on DD as anyone), and I don't get how you can argue that a "rebuild" or "building" process is being derailed...

                          Comment


                          • sleepz wrote: View Post
                            There are only rumours of this and we do not know how realistic they are.

                            Secondly it will not erase the fact you have close to $30 million invested in 2 players that have never been to an all-star game but have been in the league for 5+ years. Gay I know can possibly get there because he's at least been within a sniff before but as much as people hope to see Bargnani bloom, I don't forsee that happening. Can Gay even fit into what Casey wants to do defensively? A lot of questions to me and it seems like it's all being done in an effort to accelerate the process in getting good but you do that when you have a solid foundation, not a collection of average players like DeRozan and Bargnani as your stars for crying out loud!

                            It's so ironic that they are are fine with acquiring a player on a huge deal that they could have drafted a long time ago at a way better bargain than what they are about to spend now.

                            Forget the "rebuild" that was just something to say in the event of a bad year. Now we are 'building' or 'retooling' with our collection of subpar youngsters and scraps from other teams.

                            Hoping that one day a different GM will see the light and get it right.
                            Sleepz, your bias against Colangelo and Bargnani (whether warranted or not) is skewing your view of the Raptors current circumstances. This year and this year alone, they have the opportunity to take on a borderline star player - because of his salary- and still have assets that give them the opportunity to acquire a late lottery pick. As has been mentioned earlier - this is the best of both worlds. We are not likely to get a game changer at 8, as a matter of fact we are probably just as likley at 14-16.

                            If we do take on salary then we get to use Bird rights, TPE and MLE and bi-annual should we choose. If we don't take on salary and just select at 8 we lose all the aforementioned assets.

                            If we can get Gay, gain these assets and have a decent chance at getting another mid first pick we'd be stupid not to go that route. If you think we're on our way to a championship by drafting 8th the next 3 years - show me where that has been done before.

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              I don't see acquiring Rudy Gay in the same light as previous homerun swings of O'Neal and Turkoglu.

                              O'Neal was coming off major injury. He had a $20M dollar contract over 2 years. He was 30 years old. Bosh was also a max contract on the roster at the same time and desperation to appease Bosh.

                              Turkoglu was coming off a NBA Finals run and was regarded as one of the biggest free agents of the summer. He was 30 years old. He was signed to a large, 5 year contract that would have taken him to 35 years of age had he stayed the entire contract. Bosh was a max contract at the time and there was desperation to appease him.

                              Gay has 3 years left on his deal. He is healthy (as far as is known). He is just turning 26 in August and entering his prime years. There is a possibility he could raise his game another notch. There is no max contract on the roster at this time. Also Toronto will have a starting lineup and 3 solid reserves taking the Raptors up to the salary cap of $58M - assuming just the minimum salary is sent out to consummate the trade. Adding 3 minimum contracts gives the Raptors about $10M to round out their roster before hitting the luxury tax. After this season, the Raptors will no longer enjoy cap space and will be limited to exceptions regardless of if Gay was on the roster or not.


                              Suggesting that the draft is the safe approach is not entirely true without tremendous luck. The draft is one approach. The Raptors have 4 lottery picks in the last 4 years - where has that got them? So a 6th is added, then a 7th? That does not sound like progress. It sounds like waiting to be a winner as time goes by. If JV is truly a franchise C, the Raptors have guys who will still be under 30 when he is creating terror in the middle. Also it appears there is opportunity for the Raptors to add a draft pick that could net them the player they desire at 8 later.


                              So, in conclusion, I do not think a trade for Gay is similar to previous (botched) homerun swings by Colangelo. Also there lies an opportunity for the Raptors to have its cake and eat it too with an elite wing added and a possible lottery pick.
                              So do you consider rumored moves of acquiring Gay, still having Bargnani's deal on the books and possibly acquiring Nash as Colangelo "It took 5 years but I finally get it"?

                              Any apporach needs luck draft or not but youth is currency and rookie contracts are the best and easily manageable asset for a GM in the NBA. The Raps have 4 lottery picks in the last 4 years and where has it got them? Good question, considering Colangelo has been saying he wants to build around these same players for the last how long? JV is a lottery pick that everyone is trumpeting as their 5 for the forseeable future. Add a 6th, 7th and 8th pick as far as I'm concerned. However long it takes until you actually have a collection of talented young players to build around and then give out the money based on their abilities and production moving into the future. Is Gay that type of player? Perhaps, but considering a team that is a playoff contender is prepared to move him, there is obviously room for debate. Is Gay an elite wing? I say he could be but others say he's not and there is a legit argument to be made for both sides. This is not like acquiring Durrant or Lebron. This is not a guaranteed winner no matter what anyone wants to say about it, especially when the players he will be playing with now are going to be considerably worse than any players he has balled with recently.
                              How do you know if he even wants to come here? lol. I wouldn't if I was in his shoes.

                              This is another homerun swing. Blatant attempt to try and put the Raps in the playoff picture and to save a lame GM's job and garner an extension. We knew this was coming. How quickly would Colangelo forgo patience when he wants a new deal?

                              There is no guarantee Gay is an elite wing and this is coming from someone who likes his game. There is no guarantee that there is an option to still get a lottery pick. The only thing I know for sure is we will be speaking about rebuilding again in the near future. Colangelo's track record as Gm of the Raps has given me enuff precedent to make this type of statement and be more than justified for saying it.

                              Comment


                              • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                sleepz: if Colangelo goes and gets AI, then I agree 99.9% with you.
                                But why? There is an argument ot be made that he's actually a better player. If Andrea is your "primary scorer" wouldn't he fit in better (defence, rebounding, assists, etc).

                                Now I know you are going to say Gay is younger and has more upside which I am more than prepared to conceed. I could also forsee the fanbase knocking AI because he's not going to be a primary scorer and be effective in this role, but I just think we are trying to accelerate a process that is usually slow and painful.

                                No GM in our history has ever gone the full rebuild mode, because it's painful and there are no guarantees like you've mentioned before, but I as a fan would rather go that route and try to make something beautiful instead of putting lipstick on a pig (harsh I know but necessary for the imagery).lol

                                I've seen this movie before and it always ends we me wanting my money back. No quick fixes. I'm not the biggest fan of OKC but watching that team last night, I thought that those fans must want to talk OKC ball night and day cuz their team did it the right way. Their stars are young and are growing up in the organization that drafted them and the fanbase is so energized by it that its something amazing to watch.

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