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  • I still wouldn't do it. I'd keep Bargnani.
    Mamba Mentality

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    • TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
      I dont really know why people hate score first PGs, frankly, i dont label them score first because theyre not trying to score first 100% of the time. Shouldnt it matter who takes the shot as long as the shot gets in the hole? Isnt that the objective of the game?
      Exactly which is why I dont hate them, a guy like Calderon made the Ras suffer so much cause opposing defenders could cheat off him cause he isnt much of an offensive threat (he never penetrates) (no Homo) If we want to be up tempo we need someone to carry on what Lowry starts after the tip.

      Comment


      • jimmie wrote: View Post
        You're still basing this move on getting rid of Bargnani. That's ludicrous, IMO. The Toronto Raptors do not NEED Carlos Boozer to be a more successful and talented team. They need something, but it doesn't have to be Carlos Boozer. There are much better ways to annually spend 15M a year on an old, declining PF.

        As for stats, read my sig for my view on that.
        Can you elaborate on what that "something" is?

        And can you elaborate on what you mean by "old"? KG is 37 and still playing. Nash is 38 still playing. Kobe, Kidd, Pierce, Allen, still playing heavy minutes and are a lot older than Boozer.

        Even if you dont use stats, you can clearly see that the Raps are in dire need of a rebounder and a bulky body to block the lanes. And Boozer has those qualities. And is available to acquire.

        Whats the issue? Cap space? Its just 2 years.

        Comment


        • Matt52 wrote: View Post

          The bold is a good point. Replace Gibson's name with Amir.
          This is one of the things that bugs me though. It's an easy move to swallow now because of the talent upgrade, but then you're left with a guy you're paying 15 million sit out the end of close games. In the end, we get basically all the same issues (at least on D, where he may even be worse as a man defender) as Bargnani, just a more efficient scorer and rebounder. I get your reasoning, because you compare Boozer to Bargnani so it's an upgrade. But I can't help but compare Boozer to other options(that I hope are there now or would be in the summer). I keep hoping another deal is out there...hopefully Milwaukee decides to blow it up. I would wait until the offseason to revisit this trade....but I hope BC at the very least has the patience to wait til the end of this trade season, since it really seems Chicago's not got any other options. And like we both agree on, he should really try to get a pick off them...really, they have no bargaining power, and as a cheapskate team, chances are they will end up trading that pick rather than add guaranteed money next season.

          Comment


          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
            This is one of the things that bugs me though. It's an easy move to swallow now because of the talent upgrade, but then you're left with a guy you're paying 15 million sit out the end of close games. In the end, we get basically all the same issues as Bargnani, just a more efficient scorer and rebounder. I get your reasoning, because you compare Boozer to Bargnani so it's an upgrade. But I can't help but compare Boozer to other options(that I hope are there now or would be in the summer). I keep hoping another deal is out there...hopefully Milwaukee decides to blow it up. I would wait until the offseason to revisit this trade....but I hope BC at the very least has the patience to wait til the end of this trade season, since it really seems Chicago's not got any other options. And like we both agree on, he should really try to get a pick off them...really, they have no bargaining power, and as a cheapskate team, chances are they will end up trading that pick rather than add guaranteed money next season.
            Im a little uneasy with that too, but how many close games are they really going to have that they would need boozer down the stretch?? If they had boozer, theyd probably aim to wrap the game sooner than later.

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            • Why didnt they do this with Bargnani??

              http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...ve-In-Contract

              Couldve helped.

              Comment


              • mixed feelings but starting to come around. I was initially in the camp of hold on to him and see what we can get in the summer but it appears that there is a deadline coming up regarding the luxury tax that puts an extra ace in colangelo's hand that he won't have this summer. It's nice to say we'd rather have someone else but are we really going to get someone else for him?

                Comment


                • jimmie wrote: View Post
                  You're still basing this move on getting rid of Bargnani. That's ludicrous, IMO. The Toronto Raptors do not NEED Carlos Boozer to be a more successful and talented team. They need something, but it doesn't have to be Carlos Boozer. There are much better ways to annually spend 15M a year on an old, declining PF.

                  As for stats, read my sig for my view on that.
                  Not when the alternative is spending $11M per year on an underachieving, on-court deadbeat. The difference is $4M per year plus any tax and the MLE going from full to mini. I am not sure why anyone would care about the extra money when the team is owned by 2 multi-billion dollar media empires and I am also not sure what free agent coup the Raptors are going to land with a mid-level exception.

                  Due to the CBA, and even with the amnesty, the Raptors have no way to spend the money elsewhere. Obviously Bargnani is going to return jack shit and it is painfully clear that his value is never going up. He is what he is.

                  As for unfounded and baseless opinions, maybe I should look at editing my sig for my views on that.

                  Comment


                  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    I can't wait to read the Bulls' fans messages should this deal happen.

                    Boozer is still a better player - both offensively and defensively - than Bargnani.


                    This season Boozer OffRtg 101; DefRtg 100
                    This season Bargnani OffRtg 95; DefRtg 110

                    Boozer career OffRtg 110; DefRtg 102
                    Bargnani career OffRtg 103; DefRtg 111


                    Not to mention Boozer actually hits the glass and gives you 8.5 more possessions per 48 minutes.
                    Defensive Rating, ON/OFF/NET

                    Noah-101.5/106.0/-4.5
                    Boozer -105.6/98.5/+7.0
                    Andrea-111.2/109.1/+2.0
                    Amir-107.2/112.6/-5.4

                    Net is the key number. Boozer derense has a larger negative impact for his team than Andrea does.

                    Raptors have a better DRR than the Bulls.

                    15 minutes of Bargnani is better than 30 minutes of Boozer sums up their reaction. They think Andrea can help space the floor for Rose, Deng and Noah. In two years they will replace him with Nikola Mirotic.

                    Comment


                    • bobbybutler wrote: View Post
                      Defensive Rating, ON/OFF/NET

                      Noah-101.5/106.0/-4.5
                      Boozer -105.6/98.5/+7.0
                      Andrea-111.2/109.1/+2.0
                      Amir-107.2/112.6/-5.4

                      Net is the key number. Boozer derense has a larger negative impact for his team than Andrea does.

                      Raptors have a better DRR than the Bulls.

                      15 minutes of Bargnani is better than 30 minutes of Boozer sums up their reaction. They think Andrea can help space the floor for Rose, Deng and Noah. In two years they will replace him with Nikola Mirotic.
                      Fair enough. The problem is you know Bargnani is not going to be stuck playing 15 mins a game under BC and Casey's watch. Would you really want to see how Bargnani's net is going to plummet once he starts playing 30+ mins a game again?

                      Same. In two years the Raps either replace Boozer with a better player, or cap space.

                      Comment


                      • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                        This is one of the things that bugs me though. It's an easy move to swallow now because of the talent upgrade, but then you're left with a guy you're paying 15 million sit out the end of close games. In the end, we get basically all the same issues (at least on D, where he may even be worse as a man defender) as Bargnani, just a more efficient scorer and rebounder. I get your reasoning, because you compare Boozer to Bargnani so it's an upgrade. But I can't help but compare Boozer to other options(that I hope are there now or would be in the summer). I keep hoping another deal is out there...hopefully Milwaukee decides to blow it up. I would wait until the offseason to revisit this trade....but I hope BC at the very least has the patience to wait til the end of this trade season, since it really seems Chicago's not got any other options. And like we both agree on, he should really try to get a pick off them...really, they have no bargaining power, and as a cheapskate team, chances are they will end up trading that pick rather than add guaranteed money next season.
                        Unfortunately while patience is a good thing, at some point you have to make a move. Chicago's deadline to avoid the tax is February 21st.

                        If Milwaukee seeks to move Ilyasova, they are going to have more suitors than Toronto and better assets coming back than Bargnani.

                        Also, lets look at career defensive ratings:
                        Boozer 102
                        Ilyasova 103
                        Millsap 104

                        Looking at this season:
                        Boozer 100
                        Ilyasova 103
                        Millsap 104

                        Comment


                        • Jclaw wrote: View Post
                          mixed feelings but starting to come around. I was initially in the camp of hold on to him and see what we can get in the summer but it appears that there is a deadline coming up regarding the luxury tax that puts an extra ace in colangelo's hand that he won't have this summer. It's nice to say we'd rather have someone else but are we really going to get someone else for him?
                          Unfortunately this is the tricky part...and only BC would know.....It is worth noting that with the news today clearly places this as Chicago's #1 option. There has been a lot of quiet around Toronto. The last thing that seemed to be about them pursuing someone was linking them to Ilyasova.

                          This is why I keep hoping the Bucks decide to blow it up...and honestly, at this point and with the rumors, I think it is exactly what BC is waiting to see. If they trade Jennings, they're blowing it up. They might be willing to let go of Ilyasova for Bargs for the shorter commitment, and, as we all know, if you're going to suck for a year or two, who better to feature than Bargs?

                          Comment


                          • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            Unfortunately while patience is a good thing, at some point you have to make a move. Chicago's deadline to avoid the tax is February 21st.

                            If Milwaukee seeks to move Ilyasova, they are going to have more suitors than Toronto and better assets coming back than Bargnani.

                            Also, lets look at career defensive ratings:
                            Boozer 102
                            Ilyasova 103
                            Millsap 104

                            Looking at this season:
                            Boozer 100
                            Ilyasova 103
                            Millsap 104
                            I get it. Chicago doesn't want to pay the tax this season...but you make it sound like if TO doesn't take this deal, Chicago will unload Boozer to someone else and fix their tax problems for this year and going forward......

                            If this is the only deal they've really got for Boozer, why should we care if they end up paying the luxury tax?? If they can't trade Boozer, and end up paying the tax, they will still be trying to unload him so they don't end up doing so again next year. None of this affects Toronto in any way, at least if BC decides he wants to wait. I feel like you basically don't think this deal will still be here in the summer...or that it will be worse??? I don't feel it's that huge a difference maker in the short run (could care less between just missing or squeaking into the playoffs to get smashed by Miami), so if it's more for the next 2 years anyway, what is the risk of waiting???

                            I mean, if this is Chicago's preferred deal, how much worse must their other options be...if they have any...

                            Comment


                            • I personally like the trade but I'm hoping I'm not fooled by it. There are a few things that come to mind when I see it
                              1. Tom Thibodeau is one of the best defensive coaches in the league, while Casey is aswell Thibs is on another level IMO. Could boozers DRting be inflated by the coach.
                              2. Probably my worst concern is injury. No doubt boozer>bargs but if boozer gets injured which he has a large history of, is Nate Robinson+16 Mil./yr> Bargnani and Lucas?

                              3. Financial- probably the least of my concerns but if I'm not mistaken if this trade happens raptors lose the MLE and only get the mini MLE. Correct? This limits the raptors from getting any better.

                              Would they be a playoff team? Yes.
                              Would they be contenders?
                              Probably not.
                              Would they have the flexibility to become contenders?
                              Definitely not.

                              This trade puts us in an Atlanta situation. Constantly in the playoffs but never good enough to be considered a contender.
                              Again I'm all for this trade. Raptors won big time talent for talent. But they're are so many ways that this trade could end up hurting us, I find myself 2nd guessing it.

                              Comment


                              • I feel like we could find a better trade elsewhere even if the talent isn't as good

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