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  • #16
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What deals were there?

    Who is to say Ross would have been available later?

    For all those projections, Robinson was projected to go #2 yet fell to #5 and what he has done this year makes it seem like he should have fell farther.

    Projections mean dick squat and just as there is hype around certain NBA teams there is also hype around certain conferences and universities/colleges. Ross did not come from a hyped conference or school.

    There were rumours that Houston wanted Ross themselves if I recall correct.

    But again, who selected in the first round after Ross would have been a better pick outside Drummond? (who is still debatable I might add)
    Let's not forget that marvelous Cleveland pick at #4. What was that guy's name again? You know, that one guy with the face that was drafted 2 spots ahead of Lillard but couldn't even start on his collegiate team? Great pick, great pick.

    Thanks Chad Ford!

    ~Golden state, Portland

    Comment


    • #17
      JalenRose5 wrote: View Post
      Great Article, agree with most of it.

      With regards to the Terrance Ross draft, I was definitely not a fan at first, but more and more he is starting to grow on me. He has a nice release on his shot, he can jump out the building, he's not scared to drive and he moves his feet on defense. Still suspect with his dribbling and decision making but that will go away with game experience. People forget that the 2 and 3 positions are very similar and require athletic guys that are around 6'5 - 6'9 (Historically) DeRozan is 6'7 and gains 5 pounds of muscle each year. Terrence Ross is 6'6 and has only up to go. the two of them can definitely play on the court together and can become a very deadly combination if Ross can consistently hit his jumper and Demar continues to Drive.

      It's unfortunate that Bryan Colangelo will forever be linked to Andrea Bargnani.
      Now that's what I'm talking about. Sense.
      The NBA Larry O'Brien Trophy's 'Big Decision': "This is hard..(smiling)...but..I've decided to take my talents to North Texas, to join The Dallas Mavericks.


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      • #18
        Matt52 wrote: View Post
        I think picking Ross made a lot of sense. Who was picked after Ross in the first round that is having a standout year? Drummond, maybe, but that then what about ED and JV?

        Picking Ross and signing Fields, now that made little sense.
        Please expand on why you think it makes a lot of sense. The following are the questions I have which I currently have no answers for with regards to drafting Ross:
        Where does he fit on the Roster other than coming off the bench?
        Was using a mid range lottery pick in a deep draft to duplicate and existing strength the right move?
        If he is to assume the role of a 6th man, how sure is BC that he will thrive in that role? (Not everyone is a Harden or Crawford)
        Could they have flipped the draft pick to Houston for Lowry and preserved their 2013 pick?

        Don't get me wrong, Ross is a good kid and he has some obvious talent, but he's a SG and not SF. Unless BC was sure that either one of Ross or DeRozan could play SF then why this move? Why not have tried to trade out of the draft all together? Perhaps Detroit would have dealt their 2013 pick to have both Drummond and whomever else was available. There were options out there. I'm not saying BC did the wrong thing, but if there was a reason it's not clear to me.

        Comment


        • #19
          "The most recent example of the lack of direction that plagues the Raptors can be seen in the decision to draft Terrence Ross with the eight pick in the 2012 Draft. Although many were confused, analysts made sense of the decision by pointing to the slow development of DeMar DeRozan who was in the last year of his rookie deal. The idea then was if DeRozan didn’t take a huge leap forward this year, the Raptors wouldn’t re-sign him and would have Ross as his replacement. This explanation was popular until the Raptors decided to give DeRozan a four-year extension. By committing to DeRozan for the foreseeable future, the Raptors essentially wasted a lottery pick on Ross, who by virtue of playing the same position as DeRozan, will be a reserve at best. The Raptors cannot afford to keep wasting lottery picks, as they may be the only non-playoff team that consistently uses the draft to find role players rather than potential foundational pieces."

          I agree with everything except this....this was stupid

          Comment


          • #20
            Mediumcore wrote: View Post
            Please expand on why you think it makes a lot of sense. The following are the questions I have which I currently have no answers for with regards to drafting Ross:
            Where does he fit on the Roster other than coming off the bench?
            Was using a mid range lottery pick in a deep draft to duplicate and existing strength the right move?
            If he is to assume the role of a 6th man, how sure is BC that he will thrive in that role? (Not everyone is a Harden or Crawford)
            Could they have flipped the draft pick to Houston for Lowry and preserved their 2013 pick?

            Don't get me wrong, Ross is a good kid and he has some obvious talent, but he's a SG and not SF. Unless BC was sure that either one of Ross or DeRozan could play SF then why this move? Why not have tried to trade out of the draft all together? Perhaps Detroit would have dealt their 2013 pick to have both Drummond and whomever else was available. There were options out there. I'm not saying BC did the wrong thing, but if there was a reason it's not clear to me.

            All the same questions you have for Ross are equally applicable to Drummond and looking at the remaining talent pool who in the first round was a better selection than Ross? Isn't it possible the media and bloggers making projections were wrong?

            Ross might not be able to play SF but DeRozan possibly can. Also in the new age of small ball, no reason why TR and DD can't play at the same time - which they have shown capable of thus far in my opinion. I also don't think TR and DD are a duplicate of each other than height to be honest. Each players weaknesses are complimented by the others strengths. Ross is a very good defender and his shooting stroke/mechanics suggest his current percentages are not a true representation of his ability.

            Considering most draft picks are out of the league in 4 years, I don't see an issue with drafting Ross and having him come off the bench if that was the intention. 3&D off the bench is a valuable commodity. A team also needs more than a starting 5. 3-4 solid players on the bench are always needed.

            Considering 2013 is shaping up to be a very weak draft and the pick has protections, I see no issue with the trade as is.

            The season is far from over. Raps are currently sitting tied for 5th worst. If they end up finishing the year as many, myself included, expected this season to go from the start, then trading the 2013 pick instead of 2012 will likely turn out to be a very good idea. Also, there is still an opportunity for the Raps to pick up a 1st round pick via trade for 2013.

            Please don't take this as support for Colangelo. I'm past that. However, the way things were done with the pick were good by me. My assumption here is that the Raps finish the year as they are currently playing and end up with the 10/11/12 pick being sent to OKC. I believe both Ross and Lowry are better assets than what the 10-12 pick will return this year.

            Comment


            • #21
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              BC has definitely done a bad job but a couple of things.

              1) Bosh is not a franchise cornerstone and should not be compared to LBJ or D12 - like, ever. Selecting Bargnani with Bosh already on roster was a mistake though - no question.

              2) Amir's contract is 5 years and $30M. $6M for an NBA big not on a rookie deal is not expensive - especially with said player entering prime of career.

              3) In the first round, outside of Drummond because that is an old debate and brings us back to #1 with JV already here, who has truly excelled to the point where you say, "Yeah, shoulda picked him instead." Ross is playing really well. Not comparing Ross to Harden but Harden was 6th man for years in OKC. Why can't Ross have a similar role? 3 and D off teh bench is extremely valuable in my opinion. Ross might actually be much more so thta is just a bonus.

              4) The idea of the Raptors not having a franchise player is a good one. Unfortunately the Raps haven't had a pick higher than #5. Irving and Davis are legit future stars and franchise players - who were also #1 PICKS in drafts with consensus #1's. Bargnani was no such thing and there was no consensus #1 in 2006. Since Bargnani the Raps have picked 9th, 13th, 5th, and 8th. Oh yeah, I for one am very glad we don't have DMC on the roster - no question of his talent but also no question of his immaturity 3 years in to the league. Since DMC is in his 3rd year and was picked 5th (again due to off court issues, not his talent), lets wait and see what JV is doing in year 3 to use that example.



              I definitely think BC has botched more than he has done right in Toronto. But this piece is nowhere close to the issues of why.
              You wouldn't want Cousins?

              He will most definitely be a top 3 center in this league for many years to come. Maturity issues no doubt, but many young men have maturity issues. You can't teach the competitivness or nastiness in his game and he will only get better moing forward.

              Comment


              • #22
                Well, we us fans can speculate as much as we like on things like DeMar possibly being able to play SF or that Ross can be effective coming off the bench and providing shooting and D or that the 2013 draft being weak, where our pick will end up being in this draft etc..

                Speculation is fine, but it's not concrete and we have the ability to look at things in hind sight now. A GM doesn't have the luxury of speculating so much and should have a bit more of a firm grasp on how he thinks things will shape up. Does BC have the luxury to speculate that DD could one day play SF alon side Ross? I don't see any evidence of him being a good defender even at SG, so guarding larger players is even more unlikely. Does he think his team is good enough that he could use a solid asset to get him a bench player? It's the only conclusion after giving DD a new contract and also bringing in LF to an eye catching contract as well. Is Lowry and Ross the best he could have done with the 2012 and 2013 draft picks? Lowry, imo was a great pick up, but as yet, we are searching for our SF of the future. Picks are just assets and don't have to be used to draft players. I personally would have liked to see him be more creative with the pick to fill in a position of need.

                Hopefully Ross blows up next season and forces Casey to move DD to small forward in order to start Ross, but if that doesn't happen and odds say it won't then the pick just seems like a waste.

                Comment


                • #23
                  sleepz wrote: View Post
                  You wouldn't want Cousins?

                  He will most definitely be a top 3 center in this league for many years to come. Maturity issues no doubt, but many young men have maturity issues. You can't teach the competitivness or nastiness in his game and he will only get better moing forward.
                  Definitely wouldn't want him.

                  He is the best player on your team and he has no work ethic. Raps can tell you what that does until this year and Bargnani wasn't even a locker room disruption.

                  He is nasty - or I would actually label him dirty after some of the plays this year. He is competitive - but is it from a team perspective or individual stats perspective?

                  He complains to the media, is a locker room disruption, and is a thorn in 2 coaches already in his young career.

                  He actually plays around the hoop and has Bargnani shooting percentages.

                  So no, definitely would not want Cousins.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                    Well, we us fans can speculate as much as we like on things like DeMar possibly being able to play SF or that Ross can be effective coming off the bench and providing shooting and D or that the 2013 draft being weak, where our pick will end up being in this draft etc..

                    Speculation is fine, but it's not concrete and we have the ability to look at things in hind sight now. A GM doesn't have the luxury of speculating so much and should have a bit more of a firm grasp on how he thinks things will shape up. Does BC have the luxury to speculate that DD could one day play SF alon side Ross? I don't see any evidence of him being a good defender even at SG, so guarding larger players is even more unlikely. Does he think his team is good enough that he could use a solid asset to get him a bench player? It's the only conclusion after giving DD a new contract and also bringing in LF to an eye catching contract as well. Is Lowry and Ross the best he could have done with the 2012 and 2013 draft picks? Lowry, imo was a great pick up, but as yet, we are searching for our SF of the future. Picks are just assets and don't have to be used to draft players. I personally would have liked to see him be more creative with the pick to fill in a position of need.

                    Hopefully Ross blows up next season and forces Casey to move DD to small forward in order to start Ross, but if that doesn't happen and odds say it won't then the pick just seems like a waste.
                    I am more than happy to agree to disagree.

                    #8 was in play since the draft lottery according to all news sources and rumours. If there was a deal out there for it I truly believe it would have been made.

                    I am very happy with Ross given the remaining prospects in the draft. I'm still waiting for a suggestion of a better pick than Ross outside of arguably Drummond. I am going on the assumption there was little out there in the trade market for the pick.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      All the same questions you have for Ross are equally applicable to Drummond and looking at the remaining talent pool who in the first round was a better selection than Ross? Isn't it possible the media and bloggers making projections were wrong?

                      Ross might not be able to play SF but DeRozan possibly can. Also in the new age of small ball, no reason why TR and DD can't play at the same time - which they have shown capable of thus far in my opinion. I also don't think TR and DD are a duplicate of each other than height to be honest. Each players weaknesses are complimented by the others strengths. Ross is a very good defender and his shooting stroke/mechanics suggest his current percentages are not a true representation of his ability.

                      Considering most draft picks are out of the league in 4 years, I don't see an issue with drafting Ross and having him come off the bench if that was the intention. 3&D off the bench is a valuable commodity. A team also needs more than a starting 5. 3-4 solid players on the bench are always needed.

                      Considering 2013 is shaping up to be a very weak draft and the pick has protections, I see no issue with the trade as is.

                      The season is far from over. Raps are currently sitting tied for 5th worst. If they end up finishing the year as many, myself included, expected this season to go from the start, then trading the 2013 pick instead of 2012 will likely turn out to be a very good idea. Also, there is still an opportunity for the Raps to pick up a 1st round pick via trade for 2013.

                      Please don't take this as support for Colangelo. I'm past that. However, the way things were done with the pick were good by me. My assumption here is that the Raps finish the year as they are currently playing and end up with the 10/11/12 pick being sent to OKC. I believe both Ross and Lowry are better assets than what the 10-12 pick will return this year.
                      +1 , +1 & +1

                      This article was fine, but the point about Ross was a stretch to the point of idiocy. With so much still left to be determined, to classify it as a stupid draft pick is just a writer filling space.

                      I think what threw us all for a loop was the Derozan contract, but that was a risky (probably wrong) move in itself. The drafting of Ross, considering the context, was a fine move in and of itself.

                      Again, what bothers me and probably most fans is the fact that we know we're stuck with an unproven, so far mediocre, guy like DD, and it could very well be the case that Ross becomes a better player who should take DD's spot.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        BallaBalla wrote: View Post
                        +1 , +1 & +1

                        This article was fine, but the point about Ross was a stretch to the point of idiocy. With so much still left to be determined, to classify it as a stupid draft pick is just a writer filling space.

                        I think what threw us all for a loop was the Derozan contract, but that was a risky (probably wrong) move in itself. The drafting of Ross, considering the context, was a fine move in and of itself.

                        Again, what bothers me and probably most fans is the fact that we know we're stuck with an unproven, so far mediocre, guy like DD, and it could very well be the case that Ross becomes a better player who should take DD's spot.
                        DD is arguably the best player on our team..... sorry to burst your bubble, but he's definately not mediocre and unproven. The whole league has been "game planning for" and noticing Demar since last year! He was selected for the US Select team and is CLEARLY IMPROVED this year.

                        His work ethic is insane and it make fans like you eat their words and feel silly because you clearly dont know what your talking about. I'm not MLSE's accountant, but i'm not at all dissappointed in DD's contract. It seems very reasonable to me compared to JOSE's or BARGS' contract.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Demar has been okay. He is a producer, but he has not shown me the leader yet, he has not shown me the competitive nature of an Anderson. Maybe I am being too hard on him, maybe my expectations were greater. I think he is a good player, but I am not as enamoured by him as most of the fan base. Wish he drove more near the end of games, find that he settles for jumpers at the wrong time of the game.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            BallaBalla wrote: View Post
                            +1 , +1 & +1

                            This article was fine, but the point about Ross was a stretch to the point of idiocy. With so much still left to be determined, to classify it as a stupid draft pick is just a writer filling space.

                            I think what threw us all for a loop was the Derozan contract, but that was a risky (probably wrong) move in itself. The drafting of Ross, considering the context, was a fine move in and of itself.

                            Again, what bothers me and probably most fans is the fact that we know we're stuck with an unproven, so far mediocre, guy like DD, and it could very well be the case that Ross becomes a better player who should take DD's spot.
                            My issues with DD's contract are:

                            1) it was an overpayment based on what he had done so far,
                            2) it took away from possible flexibility at the start of this summer,
                            3) Raps gave away leverage with right to match.


                            With that said, I am pleasantly surprised with his performance thus far this season. His handle has improved significantly. His 3pt shooting is no longer laughable. He has made better decisions. His post game is stellar. His rebounding is no longer miniscule. If he can become a better defender - like even get to average - then I think his contract is actually quite acceptable. Given the improvement seen from this year to last, his work ethic, and desire to improve, I think he might actually be able to raise his game another notch or two.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              I am more than happy to agree to disagree.

                              #8 was in play since the draft lottery according to all news sources and rumours. If there was a deal out there for it I truly believe it would have been made.

                              I am very happy with Ross given the remaining prospects in the draft. I'm still waiting for a suggestion of a better pick than Ross outside of arguably Drummond. I am going on the assumption there was little out there in the trade market for the pick.
                              And yet we were able to trade our 2013 pick which by all accounts should be worse that #8 with the addition of Lowry, for Lowry.

                              That's cool, I have no issue with a difference in opinion and I don't think that Ross is going to be a bad player.

                              My arguement is just that I don't see where he fits in the long run. Moving either DD or TR to SF is just speculation that either will be able to play that position for an extended period of time. That leaves one of the two to come off the bench which to me is an inefficient use of a fairly high lottery pick or yet another big contract given out to a player you want coming off the bench.

                              Once again, it's not about who was there to be picked that would be better than Ross, it's about the way the pick was used. We didn't improve in any significant way because of that pick. Teams tank so they can get better through the draft by using their pick(s) or trading them. We remained stagnant with the Ross pick imo.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                people thought Ross was a stretch really? the kid is a shooter and defender skills any team would want. I remember around draft some people were clamoring for Drummond thats a little silly when we had JV coming over and Austin Rivers.... can you imagine if we got Rivers? guy is just a chucker he went 3-24 shooting in a summer league game and hes just stinking up the joint in Hornetsland, kid was not ready for the NBA should have stayed in college another year.

                                Ross was a good pick and you cant follow the draft mock as a definite thing it never is really. I was happy with the pick as soon as it was made people just didnt know who the poor guy was cause he got little media attention cause honestly Ross is well a modest quiet guy the camera misses him he just lets his game speak for itself.

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