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  • #31
    today is a historic day, as for once brasky, tim w, and myself all agree on one thing. bargs is thee best defensive player on the raptors.

    now excuse me while i give this here tea bag to brasky, extra large, 'bag in'

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    • #32
      Multipaul wrote: View Post
      The point of what I was saying is that Amir and Davis will probably REB better than him.

      Davis and Johnson will both be better rebounders than CB4, so will Bargs.
      that's crazy, bro.

      bosh is going to be going to a team that is in all likelyhood going to blow their wad on free agents, and he wont have much decent backup and therefore get a crapload of minutes..

      bargs is going to have to share his minutes with the young bigs

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      • #33
        exactly dude..so cb's reb numbers this yr will be worse than any of the rap bigs

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        • #34
          hateslosing wrote: View Post
          I only remember one instance of Bargs getting completely burned by his man last season and that was against Lemarcus Aldrige. He had very good games against big guys like Duncan and Howard, and I also remember him doing a fairly good job on Nowinski and Pau Gasol, who are both more finesse guys. Bargs has fairly quick feet and I see no reason or evidence to indicate he could not guard fours in the NBA. The issue is more that we need someone who can take on the opposing teams five, and we didn't have any this past season and won't next season.
          I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is absolutely no difference between the 4 and the 4 and 5 on the offensive end and what people need to start saying is not, "move Bargs to the four" and instead say, 'move Bargs into the high post". I'm pretty sure that is what most people mean when they talk about Bargs as a power forward.
          Bargnani had trouble against the more mobile big men. Apart from Aldridge, he had trouble with Chris Kaman so much so that Bosh had to be switched on him. He had trouble against Channing Frye/Amare Stoudemire, Al Horford, Andrew Bogut, big men who aren't really low post bangers, but face up more. Bargnani has more trouble when he has to get down in a stance against offensive players, rather than when he can body them up.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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          • #35
            You are right about Frye, I forgot him, but let's look at points scored for the others. Stoudemire scored 18 (below his average) and 30 points against us, which is bad but not bad to the point were I'd say it was a mismatch. Kaman played well against us and scored 22 and 25 points, but we were hardly team only team he went off on. Horford scored: 12, 18, 10, and 24. So he ad one really good game against us (the one where we were crushed and it led to a meeting), but he was held below his season average for 2 of the other three. Bogut did burn us twice with 22 and 27 points, but he only scored 12 one of the times we played them.
            In conclusion you're right Tim, he does have some trouble with some of the Mobile guys, but I wouldn't say he is a whole lot worse than any of the guys around the league that defend the four around the league. My thought is, if we can have him guard fours and can get another big guy to guard fives, you can more easily hide his helping deficiencies since he would not be the last line of defense anymore which would greatly help this teams defense as a whole.
            Last edited by hateslosing; Tue Jun 29, 2010, 09:04 AM. Reason: spelling
            "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

            -Churchill

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            • #36
              hateslosing wrote: View Post
              You are right about Frye, I forgot him, but let's look at points scored for the others. Stoudemire scored 18 (below his average) and 30 points against us, which is bad but not bad to the point were I'd say it was a mismatch. Kaman played well against us and scored 22 and 25 points, but we were hardly team only team he went off on. Horford scored: 12, 18, 10, and 24. So he ad one really good game against us (the one where we were crushed and it led to a meeting), but he was held below his season average for 2 of the other three. Bogut did burn us twice with 22 and 27 points, but he only scored 12 one of the times we played them.
              In conclusion you're right Tim, he does have some trouble with some of the Mobile guys, but I wouldn't say he is a whole lot worse than any of the guys around the league that defend the four around the league. My thought is, if we can have him guard fours and can get another big guy to guard fives, you can more easily hide his helping deficiencies since he would not be the last line of defense anymore which would greatly help this teams defense as a whole.
              Yes, Bargnani does have trouble against more mobile players, as I've been saying for, well, ever. Playing him at PF doesn't hide his deficiencies, though. Again, you're getting too caught up in fairly arbitrary positions. The Raptors don't play a 2-3 zone. The center does not simply stand below the basket waiting for players to drive towards it. Both big men are equally important at protecting the paint, and any time you have a poor help defender down there, he is going to hurt your team. Teams are going to focus on where Bargnani is knowing he is a poor help defender, no matter what position he plays.

              Poor perimeter defenders you can hide to a degree, by having very good defenders behind him, but there's no one behind your big men except the basket.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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              • #37
                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                Yes, Bargnani does have trouble against more mobile players, as I've been saying for, well, ever. Playing him at PF doesn't hide his deficiencies, though. Again, you're getting too caught up in fairly arbitrary positions. The Raptors don't play a 2-3 zone. The center does not simply stand below the basket waiting for players to drive towards it. Both big men are equally important at protecting the paint, and any time you have a poor help defender down there, he is going to hurt your team. Teams are going to focus on where Bargnani is knowing he is a poor help defender, no matter what position he plays.

                Poor perimeter defenders you can hide to a degree, by having very good defenders behind him, but there's no one behind your big men except the basket.
                That is not necessarily true. A lot of teams have power forwards and centers who play away from the basket, ala Bargs. If you look at the raps this year, Bosh was in far fewer help situations than Bargs over the course of the season because he played farther away from the basket normally. How many teams have two guys who play consistently in the Post anymore? I can think of the Lakers off the top of my head but it's a short list after that. Think of the Magic, Do Rashard Lewis and Dwight help equally? I know that's an extreme example, but that's what I'm taking about here. There are of course times when Bargs woud get exposed, but the point here is to minimize that exposure which would be easier to do if Bargs guarded the smaller of the opposing bigs.
                "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                -Churchill

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                • #38
                  hateslosing wrote: View Post
                  That is not necessarily true. A lot of teams have power forwards and centers who play away from the basket, ala Bargs. If you look at the raps this year, Bosh was in far fewer help situations than Bargs over the course of the season because he played farther away from the basket normally. How many teams have two guys who play consistently in the Post anymore? I can think of the Lakers off the top of my head but it's a short list after that. Think of the Magic, Do Rashard Lewis and Dwight help equally? I know that's an extreme example, but that's what I'm taking about here. There are of course times when Bargs woud get exposed, but the point here is to minimize that exposure which would be easier to do if Bargs guarded the smaller of the opposing bigs.
                  Yes, there are more big men that play away from the basket, but the situation with Bargnani is a catch 22. If he guards the more perimeter oriented big men, you're taking him away from what he does best, which is post defense. You make him guard the post players, the teams at a disadvantage because of his lack of help defense. Either way, you're at a disadvantage with Bargnani on the floor.

                  All of those that point to Bargnani being a good post defender (he is, but not consistently, at all), want to move him out of the paint on defense. At least defending in the post, he does have SOME strengths. On the perimeter, he's got NONE!

                  This is the big problem with Bargnani. His help defense is so poor, you don't want him guarding the paint, but the only thing he does well on defense is guard the post.

                  This is why the Raptors have to deal him this summer. He will ALWAYS hurt your team on the defensive end. Always.
                  Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                  • #39
                    This is the big problem with Bargnani. His help defense is so poor, you don't want him guarding the paint, but the only thing he does well on defense is guard the post.
                    Can't argue with that but I don't think you really gave any reason as to why Bargs couldn't guard the smaller men other than he is too good a post defender to move out there. I don't think that's good logic in this situation.
                    "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                    -Churchill

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                    • #40
                      hateslosing wrote: View Post
                      Can't argue with that but I don't think you really gave any reason as to why Bargs couldn't guard the smaller men other than he is too good a post defender to move out there. I don't think that's good logic in this situation.
                      Actually, you yourself admitted that Bargnani has trouble guarding the quicker, more perimeter oriented players. The only player he guards well are the back to the basket players. The other ones he has trouble guarding. The problem is that Bargnani is really only effective defensively guarding centers down low, but he's not good playing help defense. If he's asked to guard smaller, more perimeter players, he's not nearly as effective, yet he conceivably won't be asked to help out as much (although that is up for debate).

                      Bargnani simply doesn't have lateral quickness, quick feet or anticipation to be able to guard players out of the paint. The same reason he is not a good help defender is the same reason he's not good at guarding out of the paint. It requires a little more understanding of defense and the tendencies of your opponent. In other words, it usually requires a higher level of basketball IQ, something Bargnani simply doesn't have. Bargnani is a good post defender because he has good length and tends to stay on his feet rather than try and jump to block shots. His lack of anticipation actually works in his favour in the post because he doesn't fall for fakes.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                      • #41
                        Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        Actually, you yourself admitted that Bargnani has trouble guarding the quicker, more perimeter oriented players. The only player he guards well are the back to the basket players. The other ones he has trouble guarding. The problem is that Bargnani is really only effective defensively guarding centers down low, but he's not good playing help defense. If he's asked to guard smaller, more perimeter players, he's not nearly as effective, yet he conceivably won't be asked to help out as much (although that is up for debate).

                        Bargnani simply doesn't have lateral quickness, quick feet or anticipation to be able to guard players out of the paint. The same reason he is not a good help defender is the same reason he's not good at guarding out of the paint. It requires a little more understanding of defense and the tendencies of your opponent. In other words, it usually requires a higher level of basketball IQ, something Bargnani simply doesn't have. Bargnani is a good post defender because he has good length and tends to stay on his feet rather than try and jump to block shots. His lack of anticipation actually works in his favour in the post because he doesn't fall for fakes.
                        For me Tim, this is a question of what will hurt us more: Bargs being our main help guy or Bargs sometimes getting burned by the smaller faster player he is guarding. I think I would rather have one player on the other team burn us once in a while than have our main help defender watch as the other team lays the ball in unchallenged over and over again which is what we may see if Bargs can't improve his D. Now I've said it before, I think Bargs can get better at both his help defense and his anticipation through hard work and better scouting, so I'd like to give him anther season to develop into his role, but the time is coming very soon where he will have to d up or get out.
                        Other than his poor help D why do you think of him as having poor b-ball IQ? He actually passes fairly well when he puts his mind to it, and he seems to have picked up how to defend in the post very rapidly, something I can't say a lot of guys in the league learn to do.
                        "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                        -Churchill

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                        • #42
                          hateslosing wrote: View Post
                          For me Tim, this is a question of what will hurt us more: Bargs being our main help guy or Bargs sometimes getting burned by the smaller faster player he is guarding. I think I would rather have one player on the other team burn us once in a while than have our main help defender watch as the other team lays the ball in unchallenged over and over again which is what we may see if Bargs can't improve his D. Now I've said it before, I think Bargs can get better at both his help defense and his anticipation through hard work and better scouting, so I'd like to give him anther season to develop into his role, but the time is coming very soon where he will have to d up or get out.
                          Other than his poor help D why do you think of him as having poor b-ball IQ? He actually passes fairly well when he puts his mind to it, and he seems to have picked up how to defend in the post very rapidly, something I can't say a lot of guys in the league learn to do.
                          I think I have illustrated why I am so adamant the Raptors trade Bargnani. No matter where you play him or what you do with him, you're always at a disadvantage. And Bargnani is going to get burned just as much guarding smaller, faster players as he will get burned helping on D. If you're going to have him on the floor, I'd rather have him do what he does well, which is guard the post, and have a great help defender and shot blocker playing beside him (like Ed Davis, if he lives up to his billing). I'd rather not take away the ONE thing he does well on defense, which is guard the post.

                          As for your claim that the center is always the main help defender, you just have to look around the league to see that's not always true. Al Horford is the Hawks post defender, but Josh Smith is the leading shotblocker. Horford is obviously miles ahead of Bargnani as a help defender, but it's Smith that defenders funnel the offense to.

                          Don't hold your breath on Bargnani getting better at help D (except marginally). It's been four years. If it was ANY other player people wouldn't continue to have such high hopes for him. Why do people think that Bargnani is so different from everyone else?

                          As for Bargnani's low basketball IQ, it's just a matter of watching him the last four years. He doesn't catch onto things quickly on the court, he always seems to be reacting to rather than anticipating the action, as players with higher IQs tend to do. And the claim that he's a good passer is one that is often repeated but holds no truth to it. People mistake the fact that he makes a good pass once in a while for the fact that he's a good passer. I used the example of him making a spectacular block now and then not indicating he's a good help defender.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                          Follow me on Twitter.

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                          • #43
                            Bargnani is our best shot blocker and our best defender.
                            Bosh's defense was the equivalent of one of those beaded curtains- they can easily be pushed out of your way and are annoying as hell and ugly.

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                            • #44
                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              I think I have illustrated why I am so adamant the Raptors trade Bargnani. No matter where you play him or what you do with him, you're always at a disadvantage. And Bargnani is going to get burned just as much guarding smaller, faster players as he will get burned helping on D. If you're going to have him on the floor, I'd rather have him do what he does well, which is guard the post, and have a great help defender and shot blocker playing beside him (like Ed Davis, if he lives up to his billing). I'd rather not take away the ONE thing he does well on defense, which is guard the post.

                              As for your claim that the center is always the main help defender, you just have to look around the league to see that's not always true. Al Horford is the Hawks post defender, but Josh Smith is the leading shotblocker. Horford is obviously miles ahead of Bargnani as a help defender, but it's Smith that defenders funnel the offense to.

                              Don't hold your breath on Bargnani getting better at help D (except marginally). It's been four years. If it was ANY other player people wouldn't continue to have such high hopes for him. Why do people think that Bargnani is so different from everyone else?

                              As for Bargnani's low basketball IQ, it's just a matter of watching him the last four years. He doesn't catch onto things quickly on the court, he always seems to be reacting to rather than anticipating the action, as players with higher IQs tend to do. And the claim that he's a good passer is one that is often repeated but holds no truth to it. People mistake the fact that he makes a good pass once in a while for the fact that he's a good passer. I used the example of him making a spectacular block now and then not indicating he's a good help defender.
                              First off, I've often said I would rather have a great helping three ala Josh Smith or Gerald Wallace come over to help in order to take the pressure off Bosh and Bargnani. My comment about centers being the main help defender was more of a generalization since the center is usually the man guarding the opponents biggest post guy and is therefore the guy who is closest to the rim. There are of course exceptions, but that is the logic and it is often true.

                              The reason I continue to hold out hope on Barg's help D is twofold. One is that he managed to become a decent post defender over the past 2 seasons which is something many people never thought he could do, and two is that unlike most guys who play the center and pf positions in the NBA, Bargs like never had much experience in a the defensive systems commonly used in the NBA and may take a bit more time to figure it out than the average big. Five years was what BC said we could expect and we are going to be at 5 at the end of this coming season, so I'l drink the cool aid and wait and see.

                              If someone makes good passes, they are a good passer. I have rarely seen Bargs make a bad pass, though maybe I'm forgetting some. Your shot bocking example is a good one if you meant IQ instead of passing because then the comparison is just because someone blocks shots (passes) well, doesn't mean the are a good defender (have good IQ) which is accurate and a good point; however, when you say, just because someone bocks shots well (passes) doesn't mean they are a good shot blocker (passer) your argument stops making sense.

                              You're wrong about Bargs getting burned by smaller faster players hurting us as much as him not helping. The thing is, even if Barg's guy takes him off the dribble, there is a really good help defender there to bail him out in someone like ED Davis. So it is definitely to our advantage to have Bargs guarding the smaller big in that sense.
                              This is assuming that Ed Davis is a guy who can guard bigs in this league, which I doubt is the case at this point in time.

                              @ Multipaul

                              Why bring up Bosh? We know he's not a great defender, but this is about Bargs and where he should be playing on defense.
                              "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                              -Churchill

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                              • #45
                                hateslosing wrote: View Post
                                First off, I've often said I would rather have a great helping three ala Josh Smith or Gerald Wallace come over to help in order to take the pressure off Bosh and Bargnani. My comment about centers being the main help defender was more of a generalization since the center is usually the man guarding the opponents biggest post guy and is therefore the guy who is closest to the rim. There are of course exceptions, but that is the logic and it is often true.

                                The reason I continue to hold out hope on Barg's help D is twofold. One is that he managed to become a decent post defender over the past 2 seasons which is something many people never thought he could do, and two is that unlike most guys who play the center and pf positions in the NBA, Bargs like never had much experience in a the defensive systems commonly used in the NBA and may take a bit more time to figure it out than the average big. Five years was what BC said we could expect and we are going to be at 5 at the end of this coming season, so I'l drink the cool aid and wait and see.

                                If someone makes good passes, they are a good passer. I have rarely seen Bargs make a bad pass, though maybe I'm forgetting some. Your shot bocking example is a good one if you meant IQ instead of passing because then the comparison is just because someone blocks shots (passes) well, doesn't mean the are a good defender (have good IQ) which is accurate and a good point; however, when you say, just because someone bocks shots well (passes) doesn't mean they are a good shot blocker (passer) your argument stops making sense.

                                You're wrong about Bargs getting burned by smaller faster players hurting us as much as him not helping. The thing is, even if Barg's guy takes him off the dribble, there is a really good help defender there to bail him out in someone like ED Davis. So it is definitely to our advantage to have Bargs guarding the smaller big in that sense.
                                This is assuming that Ed Davis is a guy who can guard bigs in this league, which I doubt is the case at this point in time.

                                @ Multipaul

                                Why bring up Bosh? We know he's not a great defender, but this is about Bargs and where he should be playing on defense.
                                The Raptors were never going to be contenders with both Bosh and Bargnani, no matter who else the Raptors had. You simply need a very good defensive big man to contend. You can't get around that.

                                And Bargnani was actually a half decent post defender when he came in the league. It's probably the one thing I was surprised about in his rookie season. It's not as if he's picked it up in the four years he's been in the NBA. He came into the league with that ability.

                                My argument is not that Bargnani makes good passes but is not a good passer. It's that he makes good passes ONCE IN A WHILE. It's not something he does consistently. Bargnani certainly gets the ball enough that, if he were a good passer, he'd average a lot more than 1.2 apg. I've seen Bosh make some great passes, too, it doesn't mean he's a good passer...
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tig19O5N4Nk

                                Anytime a bigman is beaten, you're putting undo pressure on the defense. If Bargnani is consistently beaten by his man and Ed Davis has to cover for him, the Raptors are going to pay for it. The reason is because if Davis is helping and Bargnani has been beaten, if Bargnani's man end up missing his shot, who is going to get the rebound? Probably Davis' man. Bargnani certainly won't be in any position to box out if he's the one who's been beaten.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                                Follow me on Twitter.

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