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On Valanciunas - The blasphemy thread

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  • #91
    heh.

    GM's think like scouts first.

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    • #92
      RandomGuy wrote: View Post
      What the hell?
      He's rude and probably racist person. Just ignore him!

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      • #93
        Quirk wrote: View Post
        Performance is a better metric than size
        Generally I agree with this, but 6-9 210 would have to be the smallest starting C in the league by a long shot; there's a reason nobody does this. And then coupling him with Hansbrough (6-9 250) makes us just tiny up front. I don't think it's our best option.

        Of course, I want us to lose, so...let's try it!
        "Stop eating your sushi."
        "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
        "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
        - Jack Armstrong

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        • #94
          KHD wrote: View Post
          I don't have a problem with the original post in this thread, and OP has every right to his opinion on the subject. I happen to disagree, but that's fine.

          However, what in the actual fuck is happening in the rest of this thread?
          Haha right?

          Sometimes I feel like these discussions can be visualized as a thousand bouncy balls being simultaneously unleashed in a warehouse.

          Topic?
          NOPE.

          Anyway, this talk has been pretty fruitful for me at least.
          I still worry about his decision making, but I'm coming around otherwise.
          Some of you have made some good points.

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          • #95
            Also, I think JV isn't looking good offensively due to the "offensive gameplan" we're using right now.
            This doesn't just apply to JV though, I mean, who in our starting 5 actually looks like an effective player on offense with the "plays" that are run by the coaching staff? The iso-heavy offense is causing Rudy and DD to throw up contested bricks. Lowry isn't really attacking as much or playing to his strengths and just feeds the ball to one of our wings so they can go to work. Amir's offensive game is desperately missing the pick and roll. JV would appreciate it if he could be fed in the post more often when he gets decent position.
            Now, this doesn't mean that all of JV's shortcomings are a result of coaching. But I think we would be able to get a better idea of how good he is if he was placed in a system that better utilized his physical and mental tools.This applies to everyone on our roster too.
            OG is our king

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            • #96
              Craig wrote: View Post
              There are no factors limiting him. He is being properly coached, his minutes are fair, and he is getting better. Nothing to see here. I think people simply need to temper expectations and be patient.
              This x1000.
              Mamba Mentality

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              • #97
                I like JV, and I think he has the potential to be an impact player. Franchise player...no, no I don't see that...there are only a handful of them in the league at any point in time, and all time, there have only been a handful of C's I'd say were franchise players. Franchise player is quite the lofty expectation.

                Right now we aren't using him enough to really judge the kid I think. And I believe his decision making is a reflection of his lack of touches. The team is still trying to figure out how to play together...and by that I mean DD and Gay are still trying to figure out how to play within a team game (Gay moreso than DD). But I think his role will grow as the season progresses, if the team comes together more and our wings start to trust him more. But he needs to improve on a few things himself I think before the team is going to trust him with a bigger role. He needs to be better defensively, specifically with his rotations and help D. He is pretty good one on one, but he needs work with positioning on help. Screens...he needs to work on setting screens, and some of this might be chemistry with our wings, but I think his positioning could be a little better to help free up the wing, and needs to better recognize when to roll to the basket or hang back for a possible jumper. He also has to make that jumper when he's open, he has got guys to bite on the fake, but defenders know he can put it on the floor and drive so they are giving him space. Sometimes he drives anyway, so just take the shot big fella.

                There is a lot of upside with this kid, we should be patient with his development because right now, the team is clearly not nurturing the kid in a way that maximizes his development rate. Plus, big men supposedly develop slower than most or so I have heard.

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                • #98
                  Only thing I will add (not sure if it's been said, there's some long posts in here) is that both JV and Amir are afterthoughts on this team right now. They will have good numbers from time to time but, the majority of the time, their production will suffer because they simply don't get good opportunities with the ball. Even in games where Amir and JV are going well, they will be frozen out for long stretches.

                  As for particulars, Val's only real issue on offense this year has been his FG%. That will normalize somewhere north of where it is now. Defensively, I find it hard to comment on players because I don't know what system they are running and what guy's responsibilities are in given situations but his DRTG is down 5 points for whatever that is worth.

                  Not every Raptor has to be Bargnani or VC. Some of them can be somewhere in the middle. Not sure where Val's ceiling is but people need to relax with a 21-year old who hasn't even played 100 games....

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                  • #99
                    Brandon wrote:
                    It's not in Valanciunas athletically to be where those guys are. He doesn't have the quickness of Noah or the size and strength of Horford and Hibbert.
                    Hibbert and Horford will still in college at 21. JV is on course. He needs more touches and more minutes. Hibbert was slow and soft his first two years in NBA.

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                    • special1 wrote: View Post
                      Thank god someone said this! WTF man.....I thought euro fanboys left with Bargnani! Are you guys serious??? I would trade JV for soooo many players (including Kyrie Irving, Lamarcus Aldridge, Chris Paul, Paul George, Hibbert, Noah, Blake Griffin, Anthony Davis, James Harden, etc.) The list goes on!
                      how come no one told me we could get a cp or uncle drew for jv!?!?!?!? WE CAN???? get this done asap i mean right now!
                      What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
                      The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
                      No Where Near the South Side #WeTheNorth

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                      • Brandon wrote:
                        Valanciunas is not Hibbert, Horford, or anyone else. I can only judge Valanciunas by what he's done and doing on the court, not by what other guys are doing and have done. If you think he will become something significantly better than this, it's up to you to explain why, and I am not moved by "he's only such-and-such age" arguments. I've been following sports for too long to buy into that crap.
                        Do you believe Hibbert was better than JV at the same point in his NBA career?

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                        • Brandon wrote:
                          Valanciunas is not Hibbert, Horford, or anyone else. I can only judge Valanciunas by what he's done and doing on the court, not by what other guys are doing and have done. If you think he will become something significantly better than this, it's up to you to explain why, and I am not moved by "he's only such-and-such age" arguments. I've been following sports for too long to buy into that crap.
                          Bigs traditionally do take longer to develop.

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                          • Brandon wrote:
                            Valanciunas is not Hibbert, Horford, or anyone else. I can only judge Valanciunas by what he's done and doing on the court, not by what other guys are doing and have done. If you think he will become something significantly better than this, it's up to you to explain why, and I am not moved by "he's only such-and-such age" arguments. I've been following sports for too long to buy into that crap.
                            And you're not moved by arguments comparing their stats at similar points in time either.

                            So what is one to do to move you? Nothing.

                            It is clear your opinion is not open to debate because a player who is bigger than Horford and Noah with the same wing span as Hibbert who has already proven to be more mobile and a better rebounder than Hibbert at 21 is simply at the stage in his career where he is what he is.


                            Carry on.

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                            • Brandon wrote:
                              I don't much care about his stats at this point because the sample size is too small. I'd need at least 2 full seasons with a guy like this. He's doing worse this year compared to last year if you want to make a point of that -- his win shares/48 are down 30% over last year.

                              Here's an argument I'd consider: can you explain why he will improve without talking about his age or talking about some other player? I've already done the opposite in the first post on this subject -- ie. he's too ectomorphic to be really strong enough and he's not quick enough laterally.
                              How about the argument that you don't know how evaluate a basketball player? I don't know what else to tell you. You won't be swayed by stats, or people listing off his skills, or the fact that he's young and has a work ethic and motor at an elite level so you know he'll make every effort and improve. Over the course of his still extremely young career, Jonas has shown flashes or consistently brings just about every skill you could possibly want from a true C. That doesn't mean everything he's shown flashes with will become something he can consistently bring, but to think he is what he is, and that that's not good player, at 21 years old still growing into his body, and when he's still even learning English....Yeah, I don't know what to tell you.

                              *How about the fact that two teams with excellent programs in San Antonio and OKC have been rumored to have interest in him leading back to his draft? Yeah, Jonas must be a low-ceiling player who has no chance of being anything special. It's not like those guys know how to scout talent.
                              Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Nov 24, 2013, 09:22 PM.

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                              • Brandon wrote:
                                I don't much care about his stats at this point because the sample size is too small. I'd need at least 2 full seasons with a guy like this. He's doing worse this year compared to last year if you want to make a point of that -- his win shares/48 are down 30% over last year.

                                Here's an argument I'd consider: can you explain why he will improve without talking about his age or talking about some other player? I've already done the opposite in the first post on this subject -- ie. he's too ectomorphic to be really strong enough and he's not quick enough laterally.
                                Hibbert did worse in year 2 than 1.

                                Too ectomorphic? Since when is that a bad trait in a near or at 7' basketball player with a 7'4" wingspan? We're not talking John Henson here. I'm not sure how Joakim Noah is not too strong or Roy Hibbert is not quick enough laterally. Bad players, good players, great players come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.

                                Again, you've already made up your mind.


                                I stick to the idea JV is likely to have a career statistically speaking similar to Noah, Horford, and Hibbert and will likely be an all-star like each of the previously mentioned assuming the Raptors ever make the playoffs with a better than .500 record.

                                We'll see.

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