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Amir Johnson wants to be the team leader, says team needs a "legit center"

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  • #76
    Amir ... Davis ... Bargnani

    And after all this and after 5 years why would you keep paying him the good money and ship out great player like Amir?Who given the productivity and the growth of his game would be dumb move to get rid of for the sake of Bargnani - [footarez]
    If anything, it will be Davis who pushes Amir from the team. They are too similar, and minutes would be difficult to manage if Davis progresses as it seems. Ed could become a 30 minute guy at PF (as it stands), which doesn't leave much room for Amir. That Centre that comes in, will most likely be a low to moderate scoring option, and as such, the team will need a scoring Big.
    .

    For the most part, Raptors will need to carry at least 4 legit (playing) Bigs - besides the POB types. A collection of Ed, Amir, Reggie & some Centre would be very short on offense - unless of course that newly minted Centre is both a strong defensive player and a good offensive threat. But, let's say we get this type, then everything will be good.
    .

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    • #77
      Tim W. wrote: View Post
      Odom also was a starter until last year. And he also plays defense.

      Everyone seems to want to try and figure out what roll Bargnani might be able to play on the team. Why? He's a defensive liability and while he's a very good offensive player, he's not that great. He scored 21.4 ppg on 18 shots. That's good, but that's not extraordinary by any means. And that's all he does. He doesn't rebound, he doesn't play defense, he's not a good passer. And any time he's on the court he's giving up about as many points as he scores. The vast majority of advanced stats says that having him on the floor actually hurts the team. Yet, for some reason, people seem desperate to want to try and figure out how you can keep him on the team.

      It just seems like battered wife syndrome, to me. People seem so desperate to try and make it work while all the while the guy is regularly beating the crap out of you. At some point you've just got to realize that it's not you, it's him, and for the sake of the kids, you've got to just cut ties and get the hell out of there.
      Lol this bargnani love is just geting weird already. let it go you guys. i love the annology given above haha. the people that want bargnani to stick around and find a way to make things work are starting to look needy and selffish. theyre putting theyre own wants over the teams. i cant cheer for this team if we are just gonna have a player that we like but will never get us anywhere other then the lottery. its time you guys, just like a bad break up . stop watching bargnani mix videos on youtube and checking his twitter feed and get over it thanks .

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      • #78
        SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
        The difference with him being moved to PF is that in the starting lineup we will have a defensive presence at C, which we havent had all year, and I dont mean an undersized PF at C like davis or reggie evans, I mean like a Tyson Chandler. In clutch situations you need a strong scorer bargnani can score, him demar, and bayless kind of create a trifecta for us that can be deadly. Bargnani draws a lot of attention and will make it easier for others to score.

        Lets look at dallas as an example: Dirk has never been known for his defense, he is a 7 footer but do they play him at C? No, he doesnt really rebound much better than bargnani either, what has made Dallas so good this year? They have a defensive center like Tyson Chandler and in the past they had true centers like Eric Dampier, they werent their to score only to defend and be big bodies and rebound. Bringing in a shot blocking defensive center, and moving Bargnani to the PF could solve our problems, I mean we drafted him, we developed him, he does have a lot of potential we need to put him in a position to succeed. Believe me I have been advocating trading him and calderon all year lol, even if he did get traded I wouldnt mind, but I think moving him to PF or off the bench is better for us.
        and their players are years and year and years and years more experienced then our players.

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        • #79
          SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
          If we were getting 21 points and 5 rebounds a night from our PF position, I think we would all be pretty happy, I think we can agree that is a pretty good stat line at PF. Bring in a Tyson Chandler, draft a sick SF, start bayless, and trade calderon for a PG prospect to develop off the bench and we are stacked.
          lol not to be a dick but we had a PF that scored 24 pp and 10 rebs.... thats what what i want my pf to be getting or atleast somwhere close. the diffence is i cant recal one time bargnai got 10 rebounds this year... and i watched 95% of the games. how many double double did bargnani have? ya........ im just tired of it we need change. addition by subtraction.

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          • #80
            SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
            I think that if he doesnt get traded in the offseason we can just assume that his trade value is 0, because maybe our GM was not willing to part with him that easily, which may mean they have a high opinion. I also dont think that his contract is that bad, 10 mill for a guy who puts up those numbers is reasonable. Its not fair that we put all of the blame of our defensive woes and lack of success on one guy, this is a team sport, and I dont think we should trade him unless the right deal presents itself.

            Like I said before we have almost 20 million in free cap space, that is more than enough to sign even a max player. We also have some very promising players that we can grow internally through, not to mention the top 3 pick.

            Bargnani is a special talent you have to agree with me there, very few 7 footers can put the ball on the floor, and shoot like he can. No doubt he has to improve a lot (defensively and rebounding wise) but we should not rush into a deal and give up on a player that can be used in this league quite effectively given the right role.
            We already know this GM will not part with him easy and has a really high opinion of him.... thats one of his biggest failings in the first place. The question isn't what fans (Bargs Boys or 'Haters') or the Raps GM think of him, its what do others think of him....

            I don't care if the Raps are paying him 10mil or 2 dollars, if he negatively impacts the team he is a bad value. Period.

            I do agree that Bargnani is a special talent. One of the special talents that takes the short bus. Few 7 footers are that afraid of contact. Unwilling to box out, get a rebound or help their teammates. There is no player that I know that is supposed to be mobile that looks so ackward on the floor. That simply shoots jumpshots instead of using his so called "tools" available to him.

            I do agree he would be a much better option coming off the bench.... the further down the bench the better.

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            • #81
              pesterm1 wrote: View Post
              lol not to be a dick but we had a PF that scored 24 pp and 10 rebs.... thats what what i want my pf to be getting or atleast somwhere close. the diffence is i cant recal one time bargnai got 10 rebounds this year... and i watched 95% of the games. how many double double did bargnani have? ya........ im just tired of it we need change. addition by subtraction.
              he got 2.... and one of them was in 51 minutes of playing time.

              addition by subtraction is exactly what moving/benching Bargnani is.

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              • #82
                RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                If anything, it will be Davis who pushes Amir from the team. They are too similar, and minutes would be difficult to manage if Davis progresses as it seems. Ed could become a 30 minute guy at PF (as it stands), which doesn't leave much room for Amir. That Centre that comes in, will most likely be a low to moderate scoring option, and as such, the team will need a scoring Big.
                .

                For the most part, Raptors will need to carry at least 4 legit (playing) Bigs - besides the POB types. A collection of Ed, Amir, Reggie & some Centre would be very short on offense - unless of course that newly minted Centre is both a strong defensive player and a good offensive threat. But, let's say we get this type, then everything will be good.
                .
                If Ed becomes so good in future(which I doubt) it doesn't mean trade Amir.And what for are you gonna trade Amir exactly?Bargnani would bring us a lot more via trade than Amir..or actually Bargnani could possibly bring us more than any other trade with another player of our roster.I agree with need bigs,and not just bigs who can rebound and defend.We also need good scoring from big.Cause if not it is like having Bargnani.Scoring and no D,or a lot of D but no scoring?But you are saying Ed is going to be that good.And if that happens than he not only defends but also score.So I would keep him and Amir.I wouldn't care who plays off the bench as long as they both have minutes.After that I don't care about Bargnani,Regg,Dorsey,Ajinca and ALabi.Not that they're all gona be here next season anyway.I'm all for bringing good centre.I would be happy if we trade Bargnani for good player regardless of that player's position.

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                • #83
                  pesterm1 wrote: View Post
                  lol not to be a dick but we had a PF that scored 24 pp and 10 rebs.... thats what what i want my pf to be getting or atleast somwhere close. the diffence is i cant recal one time bargnai got 10 rebounds this year... and i watched 95% of the games. how many double double did bargnani have? ya........ im just tired of it we need change. addition by subtraction.
                  24 and 10 is MVP candidate, im sure we would all want MVP candidates at PF who wouldnt? But im saying that 21 and 5 is not a bad stat line, 21 and 7 would be nicer though. I agree we need change but trading bargnani is not the one and only means to that change. Starting Bayless (trading calderon), drafting a top 3 pick SF, signing a veteran/star C also means change, slide bargnani to the PF we will be fine with these changes. No matter what anyone says Bargnani can score, and finding guys that can score like that are not easy in this league.
                  "Defense wins championships."

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                  • #84
                    footarez wrote: View Post
                    If Ed becomes so good in future(which I doubt) it doesn't mean trade Amir.And what for are you gonna trade Amir exactly?Bargnani would bring us a lot more via trade than Amir..or actually Bargnani could possibly bring us more than any other trade with another player of our roster.I agree with need bigs,and not just bigs who can rebound and defend.We also need good scoring from big.Cause if not it is like having Bargnani.Scoring and no D,or a lot of D but no scoring?But you are saying Ed is going to be that good.And if that happens than he not only defends but also score.So I would keep him and Amir.I wouldn't care who plays off the bench as long as they both have minutes.After that I don't care about Bargnani,Regg,Dorsey,Ajinca and ALabi.Not that they're all gona be here next season anyway.I'm all for bringing good centre.I would be happy if we trade Bargnani for good player regardless of that player's position.
                    I think a rotation of 4 bigs (bargnani, ed, amir, star C) getting about 24-25 min. a game will be good, it means they all get to develop but it also means that we get depth. Injuries happen, depth is essential to being successful in this league. One of those 4 will get injured and create more min. until then 24 min. a game is pretty good for them, it wont burn them out, or get them injured but it will keep them active and productive.
                    "Defense wins championships."

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                    • #85
                      SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                      I think a rotation of 4 bigs (bargnani, ed, amir, star C) getting about 24-25 min. a game will be good, it means they all get to develop but it also means that we get depth. Injuries happen, depth is essential to being successful in this league. One of those 4 will get injured and create more min. until then 24 min. a game is pretty good for them, it wont burn them out, or get them injured but it will keep them active and productive.
                      While this works well on paper, one just has to look at recent Raptor history to see how well it works in practice. Maybe just ask TJ Ford and Jarrett Jack.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                      • #86
                        SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                        24 and 10 is MVP candidate, im sure we would all want MVP candidates at PF who wouldnt? But im saying that 21 and 5 is not a bad stat line, 21 and 7 would be nicer though. I agree we need change but trading bargnani is not the one and only means to that change. Starting Bayless (trading calderon), drafting a top 3 pick SF, signing a veteran/star C also means change, slide bargnani to the PF we will be fine with these changes. No matter what anyone says Bargnani can score, and finding guys that can score like that are not easy in this league.
                        since when is 24 and 10 MVP ? aldrige scored 22 and 9 rebs and he didnt even make alstar team. i tihnk being mvp is about much more then numbers though.

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                        • #87
                          pesterm1 wrote: View Post
                          since when is 24 and 10 MVP ? aldrige scored 22 and 9 rebs and he didnt even make alstar team. i tihnk being mvp is about much more then numbers though.
                          What I am trying to say is that if 24 and 10 is all that we are willing to accept from a PF ... then our options for PF are gonna be real limited since their are only a handful of players in the league putting up numbers like that, when Chris Bosh put those numbers up at PF he was considered the best PF in the league, and if he was in a winning he wouldve been considered an MVP candidate most likely. Admit it ... 21 and 5 is a good statline for any position.
                          "Defense wins championships."

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                          • #88
                            ^^^ Especially when you are paying the guy 9 million a season and 13 or 14 !!!

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                            • #89
                              SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                              Admit it ... 21 and 5 is a good statline for any position.
                              The 21 points doesn't matter if the player usually gives up more than 21 points, and scores inefficiently himself...That's really a good statline for any position than PF and C.

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                              • #90
                                SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                                21 and 5 is a good statline for any position.
                                Well, no, it's not. Not if it's a big man. Besides, two stats don't tell much about player, do they? They don't tell me whether or not he plays defense, whether he scores efficiently, whether he scores within the offense, whether he passes the ball. There are lots of stat categories, yet Bargnani only does well in one of them.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                                Follow me on Twitter.

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