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How is Kyle Lowry different from Jarrett Jack?

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  • #46
    Like I keep saying one without the other is viewing it in a vacuum. You keep missing that point. I have seen enough of Lowry and jack on league pass and read enough about them and have looked at far more numbers than the OP presented in comparing Lowry to guards who, on the surface, have a similar game. If you think looking at the comparison presented by the OP is a fair one than that is foolish. Which is the point I keep trying to make. Of course when discussing what I see as the game is actually being played I'm going to rely on the team I watch the most and that is the Raptors. I'm not reaching for guys I don't watch all that much. I happen to have had both jack and Lowry on my fantasy squad last year and access to LP so I watched more of their games as a result of a relevant interest. If you want to keep cherry picking my argument (that stats in a vacuum are pretty worthless) go ahead we can agree to disagree. If you want to try to tell me what I'm watching and seeing and making note of is inaccurate then I'm going to defend it by saying stats are imperfect and tell only a portion of the story. Even the Henry Abbots and John Hollingers of the world are the first to admit as much.
    LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

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    • #47
      As for Mike James its a couple of things. Over dribbling, over shooting, and relative inefficiency. Like I said this is a TEAM game where individual stats are interesting but say very little about the impact said player has on the team. Basketball is at its best (imo) when the ball is moving and finding the open man, not when one guy is hotdogging it and calls his own number all the time. That one on one shit is boring and easy for teams to defend against, especially late in the clock/game. Undersized guards who shoot first, second and third, like mike James and Ben Gordon, just don't help a team win on a consistent basis because once the D loads up on them the rest of the team is out of synch, cold whatever. Even the real MJ realized that to win he'd have to trust his teammates and keep them involved.

      Rumor has it (hearsay from a friend of mine who worked at the hotel Mike James lived at in Toronto) was that he was also a staggering drunk who would be boozing it up in the hotel bar to the wee hours. Like I said, hearsay, but being an alcoholic with a temper and over sized ego isn't easy to work with.
      LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

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      • #48
        minks77 wrote: View Post
        Like I keep saying one without the other is viewing it in a vacuum. You keep missing that point. I have seen enough of Lowry and jack on league pass and read enough about them and have looked at far more numbers than the OP presented in comparing Lowry to guards who, on the surface, have a similar game. If you think looking at the comparison presented by the OP is a fair one than that is foolish. Which is the point I keep trying to make. Of course when discussing what I see as the game is actually being played I'm going to rely on the team I watch the most and that is the Raptors. I'm not reaching for guys I don't watch all that much. I happen to have had both jack and Lowry on my fantasy squad last year and access to LP so I watched more of their games as a result of a relevant interest. If you want to keep cherry picking my argument (that stats in a vacuum are pretty worthless) go ahead we can agree to disagree. If you want to try to tell me what I'm watching and seeing and making note of is inaccurate then I'm going to defend it by saying stats are imperfect and tell only a portion of the story. Even the Henry Abbots and John Hollingers of the world are the first to admit as much.
        Well I have yet to hear what 'systems' they run... which was the basis as to why the stats are inaccurate.

        But, not you didn't keep saying viewing one without the other is viewing in a vacuum. Rather you said that "why you need to watch the game and ignore the stats (for the most part)." and then changed it to " comparing digits in a vacuum is nearly pointless" - which is a far cry from what you are saying now. You also mentioned that what saw were 'facts'.


        happen to have had both jack and Lowry on my fantasy squad last year
        Whoops, we might have the actual reason why the given stats are wrong right? because Lowry is better than Jack in fantasy basketball....... I know, now you are going to tell me that you aren't basing your opinion on fantasy basketball and the amount of games (which was 'enough') is really what you basing your 'facts' on.

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        • #49
          I did say "for the most part" I also said I wasn't clear and tried to clarify my point.

          The only thing, and I pointed this out if you'd care to actually read what I wrote, about them both being on my squad (had a shitty draft position as you may be able to tell) was that it lead me to actually watch their games. Not just rely on what any numbers nerd (like abott or hollinger) would instantly discredit as mostly invaluable and misleading: basic box score (as presented in the OP).

          At any rate I've put forth some solid arguments to which all you've replied with is that my eyes can't tell ish and that stats are the only truth. If that works for you and is where you derive pleasure from pro ball so be it. I choose to watch and trust what I see. If I've any questions about what I'm seeing or need added, more complete information I look at the numbers.

          And it's not a far cry. Simply put individual numbers in a vacuum are nearly pointless considering the many other factors that most be assessed such as the other guys on the floor, system opponent etc.

          Latly if you want to know more about their offensive and defensive schemes I highly suggest Coach Nicks breakdowns and NBA Playbook on Youtube as a start. Google is your friend.
          LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

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          • #50
            minks77 wrote: View Post
            ...I choose to watch and trust what I see. I....
            OMG. That is sooooo lame. Don't you know that people in the know, and I'm talking professional scouts, GMs, NBA coaches and their assistants don't even go to games anymore when they are making decisions about the draft or trades. They just look at the numbers. That is where the truth is....No wait a minute. They actually DO go out and watch players during games, and spend hours looking at tapes. Boy, do they have a lot to learn.

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            • #51
              Oh yeah, what's the difference between Lowry and Jack?

              Well, Lowry doesn't look like an alien.
              Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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              • #52
                Lowry has hair...that's the extent of my basketball acumen.

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                • #53
                  Craiger wrote: View Post
                  First I'll say that using 1 play vs an entire seasons worth of numbers will ofcourse give a completely different view. Thats why sample is important.

                  But, to the exact example... why did Bayless dribble out the clock? For fun? Because the defense was doing a good job on him or his teammates? Were his teammates not getting open? Was that the play call?

                  Why did Bayless pass rather than shoot? Poor decision making? Good defense? Did his teammate get open at the last moment?

                  What caused the bad pass? Bayless just being a poor passer? The defense forcing him into it? Did his teammate change position unexpectedly?
                  Many teams, including the Raptors, subscribe to Synergy Sports so they can determine what happened.

                  A large sample size would probably show the play Puffer described occurs with a much higher frequency with Bayless than with Calderon.

                  Craiger wrote: View Post
                  And lets compare that to taking 1000s of occurences that take place, try to average them out to come to the most common result, rationalize them against the 1000s of other occurences that take place by players and teams throughout the league and history. We can now get an idea where 1 occurence has no effect on the overrall picture.
                  Bayless did not run any one play anywhere close to 1,000 times last year, let alone with the same personnel on the floor. I am too lazy to check but my guess is teams have roughly 100-110 possessions per game, 8,000-9,000 per season. A specific data point is not as insignificant as what you are suggesting when measuring the player's performance.

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                  • #54
                    First off puffer, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do they or don't they watch the games?

                    lol, scouts gms et al don't watch THOUSANDS of posessions, constantly cruise Synergy AND actually go to games! Do you even watch March Madness? They show the NBA scouts and big wigs in the stands all the time.
                    Last edited by minks77; Tue Sep 11, 2012, 08:22 AM. Reason: to clarify AND play nice :)
                    LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

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                    • #55
                      minks77 wrote: View Post
                      First off puffer, I'm not sure what you're saying here. ....
                      Should have used the sarcasm smiley. :-)

                      Of course the professionals who making a living analysing players watch the games. They do it because stats don't tell the whole story. If professionals can't tell all they need to know strictly from stats, then I don't think anyone posting on this board can. You are absolutely correct. "...one without the other is viewing it in a vacuum..."

                      Since the professionals depend on the eyeball test, in conjunction with statistical analysis, then I don't think you need to add anything else to your argument.

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                      • #56
                        lol, I thought so, but only after I typed a bunch of vitriol! Puff away, puffer, and roll one for me!


                        edited due to this being my 420th post, lol
                        Last edited by minks77; Tue Sep 11, 2012, 11:26 AM.
                        LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

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                        • #57
                          If you can remember Jack actually playing in Toronto - the reason he was traded was he fell apart under the pressure of starting all the time. He had a nice initial run but couldn't keep it up.
                          The best Raptors discussion board is at Raptors Republic.

                          Stephen Brotherston, Pro Bball Report

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                          • #58

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                            • #59
                              Nice, Lowry seems determined to gel with the team quickly.

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                              • #60
                                Remember the story about JYD hopping in his truck and driving straight here in a snowstorm when he was traded? Or Jalen showing up in the custom jacket, day one? love those stories. Nice change of pace from "no one ever wants to play here" line.

                                Guess Twitter is the new ugly jacket. At least he spelled Canada correctly. Welcome to your new home KLow...
                                LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

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