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  • #16
    Axel wrote: View Post
    I think you can absolutely move Gay, but getting a 2014 pick might not be a part of it.

    Gay for Gordon and MKG makes so much sense for Charlotte. They get to add a perceived "star" player, plus if they keep their pick, then they can replace MKG fairly easily through the draft. If Gay opts-out, they try to resign him or they play their 2014 rookie instead. If Gay opts-in, they continue to compete and have an expiring to deal.

    Does Toronto benefit from getting Gordon and MKG (no 2014 pick)? I say yes. Gordon is obviously just for financial reasons, but MKG is still a top prospect who plays D, plays off-ball and in transition. If we can get a future pick, 2015/2016 then great, but to be honest, if we can get MKG and an expiring for Gay, then I'd be happy. Increase the value of our own 2014 pick at the same time, draft a stud PG or SG (depending on where our picks lands) and go from there.

    Lowry is harder to move because of the depth of the PG position imo. Until an injury or slump occurs, I don't think there is a great market for him. Brooklyn could use a legit back-up PG, but I can't remember if they can salary match or not.

    I also think that Cleveland will make a move if they believe that the player (Gay in this case) puts them into contention regardless of LBJ. Gilbert does not want to get burned by LBJ twice, and his ego requires winning. If Gay can raise his value enough for Cleveland to think he could fit beside Irving, Waiters, then I think Cleveland makes the decision based on Gay's merits, not LBJ.
    I know it's disheartening, but look at this from the perspective of the other team. Say you're the GM of Charlotte.

    Does acquiring Gay give you any chance of being higher than a 6-8 seed? No

    As a result of that, is it worth sacrificing virtually all your future financial flexibility in order to use him for a playoff push? No. Additionally, is it worth it to actually include the former #2 overall pick who still has a chance to grow and develop to acquire Gay? No.

    This whole Gay "raising his value" business doesn't mean a lot. Come on guys, WE know what kind of player he is: an inefficient chucker who should be a 3rd option, but will never accept that role and has a Kevin Durant mentality with the skillset of a much lesser player. Don't you think other GMs know that as well?

    Comment


    • #17
      planetmars wrote: View Post
      Sanders is out 6 weeks.. now is the perfect time to see if the Bucks would be willing to trade for Gay.

      Gay for Butler (expiring), Udoh (expiring) and Giannis works.
      If you were Milwaukee would you trade a guy with Giannis' physical tools who might have star potential, for an outside shot at the playoffs and 19M on your payroll?

      Comment


      • #18
        Nosike wrote: View Post
        That's a stretch. Waiters is every bit the chucker DeMar and Gay are, and not even as good at it. I'd say Valanciunas is better than Varejao at this point.
        Just my opinion here but:

        Irving > Lowry
        Waiters < Demar but > Ross
        Thompson > Amir
        Varejo > JV right now
        Jack >>>>>>> Buycks, DJ, Stone

        So Waiters is the only downgrade for me... and that might not be for too much longer considering eh just entered his 2nd year.

        Comment


        • #19
          Nosike wrote: View Post
          I know it's disheartening, but look at this from the perspective of the other team. Say you're the GM of Charlotte.

          Does acquiring Gay give you any chance of being higher than a 6-8 seed? No

          As a result of that, is it worth sacrificing virtually all your future financial flexibility in order to use him for a playoff push? No. Additionally, is it worth it to actually include the former #2 overall pick who still has a chance to grow and develop to acquire Gay? No.

          This whole Gay "raising his value" business doesn't mean a lot. Come on guys, WE know what kind of player he is: an inefficient chucker who should be a 3rd option, but will never accept that role and has a Kevin Durant mentality with the skillset of a much lesser player. Don't you think other GMs know that as well?
          Every year, there are bad transactions after bad transactions, most of which make no sense whatsoever. We shouldn't assume we precisely know the exact mindset of every GM in the league.

          Besides, a good salesman is a good salesman.

          Comment


          • #20
            Nosike wrote: View Post
            I know it's disheartening, but look at this from the perspective of the other team. Say you're the GM of Charlotte.

            Does acquiring Gay give you any chance of being higher than a 6-8 seed? No

            As a result of that, is it worth sacrificing virtually all your future financial flexibility in order to use him for a playoff push? No. Additionally, is it worth it to actually include the former #2 overall pick who still has a chance to grow and develop to acquire Gay? No.

            This whole Gay "raising his value" business doesn't mean a lot. Come on guys, WE know what kind of player he is: an inefficient chucker who should be a 3rd option, but will never accept that role and has a Kevin Durant mentality with the skillset of a much lesser player. Don't you think other GMs know that as well?
            I think it all depends on what they give up. I actually think Gay would fit very nicely with Walker, Jefferson & Biyombo. If they keep both Henderson & MKG, along with Zeller, that's a pretty decent 7-man rotation.

            If Gay opts-out, finances don't come into play. If he opts-in, he's a $19.3M expiring contract, which could have some value as a trade chip.

            MKG is only one option - Charlotte also has several current/future draft picks to include, along with Gordon.

            We also never know what GMs are thinking. I mean, of all the teams I thought Bargnani could end up being traded to, the Knicks (with Amare's huge, uninsured contract already manning the PF spot) were one of my least expected options.

            Comment


            • #21
              i think ppl holding out hope that gay can return an MKG type asset must really believe MU is a miracle worker. what is charlotte's incentive to do that? they obviously think pretty highly of him, they spent the number two overall pick in a pretty great top-heavy draft on him when they had a need at every position except point guard. and now they're going to give up on him 7 games into his sophomore season? when he's playing well? all to make the 8 seed and limit their potential for "internal growth"? and what need do they have for gay if they're keeping MKG?

              sorry, i just don't see any franchise being that stupid, not even charlotte.

              i think gay might be tradeable, i just think he's more likely to return "assets" like expirings and maybe a second round pick or extremely heavily protected first/late pick from a contender, as a best case scenario. and i absolutely think we should jump on that if the opportunity presents itself

              Comment


              • #22
                chris wrote: View Post
                i think ppl holding out hope that gay can return an MKG type asset must really believe MU is a miracle worker. what is charlotte's incentive to do that? they obviously think pretty highly of him, they spent the number two overall pick in a pretty great top-heavy draft on him when they had a need at every position except point guard. and now they're going to give up on him 7 games into his sophomore season? when he's playing well? all to make the 8 seed and limit their potential for "internal growth"? and what need do they have for gay if they're keeping MKG?

                sorry, i just don't see any franchise being that stupid, not even charlotte.

                i think gay might be tradeable, i just think he's more likely to return "assets" like expirings and maybe a second round pick or extremely heavily protected first/late pick from a contender, as a best case scenario. and i absolutely think we should jump on that if the opportunity presents itself
                Remember when Sacramento gave up on Thomas Robinson (their 5th overall pick) halfway through his rookie season?

                Or like others suggested earlier, did anyone see New York as a trade partner for Bargnani?

                I'm not saying that a Rudy to Charlotte deal will happen. I'm just saying we can't write it off as a ridiculous scenario.

                Comment


                • #23
                  chris wrote: View Post
                  i think ppl holding out hope that gay can return an MKG type asset must really believe MU is a miracle worker. what is charlotte's incentive to do that? they obviously think pretty highly of him, they spent the number two overall pick in a pretty great top-heavy draft on him when they had a need at every position except point guard. and now they're going to give up on him 7 games into his sophomore season? when he's playing well? all to make the 8 seed and limit their potential for "internal growth"? and what need do they have for gay if they're keeping MKG?
                  This is exactly what I'm trying to say. For the people suggesting Charlotte would make that deal, if YOU were Charlotte, would you trade the former #2 overall pick for an albatross contract just to get 8th place? No. Hell acquiring Gay might actually make the team worse. Gilchrist has a 59% TS percentage this year. He also defends at an elite level.

                  sorry, i just don't see any franchise being that stupid, not even charlotte.

                  i think gay might be tradeable, i just think he's more likely to return "assets" like expirings and maybe a second round pick or extremely heavily protected first/late pick from a contender, as a best case scenario. and i absolutely think we should jump on that if the opportunity presents itself
                  Yep this is best case scenario, scrubs and expirings for Gay.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    One thing to remember about last year is Memphis had a financial factor in their negotiations.

                    They didn't want to take back any significant contract in return during not only last season but more importantly they didn't want any salary carrying in to this season so it really limited them in negotiation. For example, Washington could only make a deal with Okafor, Charlotte had Gordon.

                    The Grizzlies eventually only took back Prince and Daye in the trade about $10M less last season and only Prince's $7-$7.5M moving forward for a starting SF replacement on a veteran team still trying to contend.

                    I agree his value isn't very high but Memphis had different circumstances in their negotiations that I hope a large market with rich ownership is not going to encounter when at the trade table.
                    The Grizzlies made a cost-slashing trade with the Cavaliers last January (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/88...tiplayer-trade) that spared them from paying the luxury tax. After that, a lot of people expected the Rudy Gay trade rumors to die down as they no longer really "needed" to trade him for strictly financial reasons. They didn't however - if anything the rumors got louder.

                    I'm connecting dots here but I think the shopping of Gay had more to do with Hollinger taking over in Memphis than anything else. One of the NBA's leading men when it comes to analytics and one of the least analytic friendly players in the league; it's a relationship that seemed doomed from the start.

                    If the Grizzlies were strictly getting rid of Gay for financial reasons, why did they bother giving up a first rounder to Cleveland a few weeks earlier just to slash $6 million in salary? The Gay trade alone was enough to save them from the tax and keep their pick. Of course we heard they were shopping Gay because they couldn't afford him, but what did you expect them to say? We want to move him because he's way overpaid and doesn't help us very much?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Nosike wrote: View Post
                      This is exactly what I'm trying to say. For the people suggesting Charlotte would make that deal, if YOU were Charlotte, would you trade the former #2 overall pick for an albatross contract just to get 8th place? No. Hell acquiring Gay might actually make the team worse. Gilchrist has a 59% TS percentage this year. He also defends at an elite level.

                      Yep this is best case scenario, scrubs and expirings for Gay.
                      Depends on the team's situation. Charlotte, with a history of being inept and with an owner desperate to win and an obvious weakness in what isn't a terrible line-up could be that team. Kemba Walker is a great floor spacer, Henderson would do all the defensive work that Gay wouldn't, then you have Al Jefferson scoring from the post and Biyombo as the rim protector. Add in Zeller, McRoberts off the bench for the front-court and Jeff Adrien, Jeff Taylor and Ramon Sessions and you have a lot of guys that will work hard defensively, but just lack fire-power. Gay could fill that perceived void and he is, despite current production, a better shooter/scorer than MKG.

                      The Bobcats are also about to re-become the Hornets. They need to change their image as a lottery team and making the play-offs, even as 1st round fodder, is the best way to do that. They have enough young guys that will grow organically, they just don't have enough right now guys, so they can take a chance on an established guy, like Al Jefferson and Gay because their ceiling wont be reached until Kemba Walker reaches his (which is still a few years away imo). Plus the financial incentive of playoff revenue would mean significantly more for Jordan the owner than MLSE in Toronto.

                      Too many good incentives for Charlotte to ignore the deal.

                      As for comparing Toronto trading Gay to Memphis trading Gay, it isn't that simple. Contract options this year are different, as it the willingness to take on contracts. Memphis was making the move purely for financial reasons. Toronto is making the move for basketball reasons first, with financial being a secondary benefit.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Fully wrote: View Post
                        The Grizzlies made a cost-slashing trade with the Cavaliers last January (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/88...tiplayer-trade) that spared them from paying the luxury tax. After that, a lot of people expected the Rudy Gay trade rumors to die down as they no longer really "needed" to trade him for strictly financial reasons. They didn't however - if anything the rumors got louder.

                        I'm connecting dots here but I think the shopping of Gay had more to do with Hollinger taking over in Memphis than anything else. One of the NBA's leading men when it comes to analytics and one of the least analytic friendly players in the league; it's a relationship that seemed doomed from the start.

                        If the Grizzlies were strictly getting rid of Gay for financial reasons, why did they bother giving up a first rounder to Cleveland a few weeks earlier just to slash $6 million in salary? The Gay trade alone was enough to save them from the tax and keep their pick. Of course we heard they were shopping Gay because they couldn't afford him, but what did you expect them to say? We want to move him because he's way overpaid and doesn't help us very much?
                        No doubt Hollinger had impact on trading gay. They are chalk and cheese.

                        I do remember that trade as well. However, that trade only alleviated last season. If they had not followed up with the Gay trade they would have been a luxury tax team this year without Tony Allen resigned and no depth.

                        All your points in the last paragraph are good ones. We are all speculating. You very well could be right.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Axel wrote: View Post
                          Depends on the team's situation. Charlotte, with a history of being inept and with an owner desperate to win and an obvious weakness in what isn't a terrible line-up could be that team. Kemba Walker is a great floor spacer, Henderson would do all the defensive work that Gay wouldn't, then you have Al Jefferson scoring from the post and Biyombo as the rim protector. Add in Zeller, McRoberts off the bench for the front-court and Jeff Adrien, Jeff Taylor and Ramon Sessions and you have a lot of guys that will work hard defensively, but just lack fire-power. Gay could fill that perceived void and he is, despite current production, a better shooter/scorer than MKG.

                          The Bobcats are also about to re-become the Hornets. They need to change their image as a lottery team and making the play-offs, even as 1st round fodder, is the best way to do that. They have enough young guys that will grow organically, they just don't have enough right now guys, so they can take a chance on an established guy, like Al Jefferson and Gay because their ceiling wont be reached until Kemba Walker reaches his (which is still a few years away imo). Plus the financial incentive of playoff revenue would mean significantly more for Jordan the owner than MLSE in Toronto.

                          Too many good incentives for Charlotte to ignore the deal.

                          As for comparing Toronto trading Gay to Memphis trading Gay, it isn't that simple. Contract options this year are different, as it the willingness to take on contracts. Memphis was making the move purely for financial reasons. Toronto is making the move for basketball reasons first, with financial being a secondary benefit.
                          It's nice to think these things because they benefit us, but how about you look at it from this perspective.

                          The Raptors are rebranding soon and have new management coming in. They need to make a trade for a solid but extremely overpaid player in order to make a playoff push.

                          See how similar that reasoning is? And I'm sure nobody here has any interest in us going out and trading for yet another overpaid player.

                          Just because Charlotte wants to make the playoffs, doesn't mean they're going to mortgage their whole future to do so. Tbh, Rich Cho is actually a good GM, they just haven't been getting particularly lucky in lotteries.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Nosike wrote: View Post
                            It's nice to think these things because they benefit us, but how about you look at it from this perspective.

                            The Raptors are rebranding soon and have new management coming in. They need to make a trade for a solid but extremely overpaid player in order to make a playoff push.

                            See how similar that reasoning is? And I'm sure nobody here has any interest in us going out and trading for yet another overpaid player.

                            Just because Charlotte wants to make the playoffs, doesn't mean they're going to mortgage their whole future to do so. Tbh, Rich Cho is actually a good GM, they just haven't been getting particularly lucky in lotteries.
                            The difference is that Charlotte demonstrated that exact approach by signing Jefferson to an absurd contract. They took BC's accelerated rebuilding strategy to the extreme with that move, for the exact reasons that are being claimed.

                            Conversely, TL came in and fired BC because he built Toronto into a capped-out Frankenteam and hired MU to clean up the mess. The Raptors roster will be blown-up at some point, either to rebuild or retool, because trading is the only option available to MU (cap situation precludes Toronto from being a player in free agency). Of course the draft is in play, regardless which direction MU takes the team.

                            You also seem to be hung-up on Charlotte including MKG in a deal, when such a deal could be done without Charlotte giving up a key/young member of their core (ie: Gordon & filler & draft picks, be it 2014 of future pick(s)). Plus, as has been done in previous deals, Charlotte could make the trade dependent on Gay giving them a verbal confirmation to either opt-in or opt-out, depending on what their desired choice is.

                            It's not as simple as blowing smoke to make a desired point; the situations are completely different, based on actions taken by each team during the offseason (and stated by their ownership/management groups).

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                              The difference is that Charlotte demonstrated that exact approach by signing Jefferson to an absurd contract. They took BC's accelerated rebuilding strategy to the extreme with that move, for the exact reasons that are being claimed.

                              Conversely, TL came in and fired BC because he built Toronto into a capped-out Frankenteam and hired MU to clean up the mess. The Raptors roster will be blown-up at some point, either to rebuild or retool, because trading is the only option available to MU (cap situation precludes Toronto from being a player in free agency). Of course the draft is in play, regardless which direction MU takes the team.

                              You also seem to be hung-up on Charlotte including MKG in a deal, when such a deal could be done without Charlotte giving up a key/young member of their core (ie: Gordon & filler & draft picks, be it 2014 of future pick(s)). Plus, as has been done in previous deals, Charlotte could make the trade dependent on Gay giving them a verbal confirmation to either opt-in or opt-out, depending on what their desired choice is.

                              It's not as simple as blowing smoke to make a desired point; the situations are completely different, based on actions taken by each team during the offseason (and stated by their ownership/management groups).
                              I would also add with the difference between Charlotte and Toronto is the Bobcats have been tanking for 3 years, they've already had high draft picks, and been screwed by the lotto balls all around (they have lost position after every lottery). Toronto has, incredibly, been trying to improve and actually be good.... obviously an epic fail.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                                The difference is that Charlotte demonstrated that exact approach by signing Jefferson to an absurd contract. They took BC's accelerated rebuilding strategy to the extreme with that move, for the exact reasons that are being claimed.

                                Conversely, TL came in and fired BC because he built Toronto into a capped-out Frankenteam and hired MU to clean up the mess. The Raptors roster will be blown-up at some point, either to rebuild or retool, because trading is the only option available to MU (cap situation precludes Toronto from being a player in free agency). Of course the draft is in play, regardless which direction MU takes the team.

                                You also seem to be hung-up on Charlotte including MKG in a deal, when such a deal could be done without Charlotte giving up a key/young member of their core (ie: Gordon & filler & draft picks, be it 2014 of future pick(s)). Plus, as has been done in previous deals, Charlotte could make the trade dependent on Gay giving them a verbal confirmation to either opt-in or opt-out, depending on what their desired choice is.

                                It's not as simple as blowing smoke to make a desired point; the situations are completely different, based on actions taken by each team during the offseason (and stated by their ownership/management groups).
                                That's an exaggeration, Jefferson isn't signed to an "absurd" deal. He's a center for starters, so he's going to get paid a premium. 13.5M a year for a 20-10 center entering his prime is far from absurd. Considering that Gay makes 6M more than that per season and is nowhere near as useful, why would Charlotte want him?

                                I'm not hung up on MKG, although it keeps being suggested by others here. I'm not sure why Charlotte would even trade Ben Gordon STRAIGHT UP for Rudy Gay's contract, let alone actually including picks and lesser prospects.

                                I'm not blowing smoke. Moving Rudy Gay would essentially require us to trade with a Bryan Colangelo clone, because he has the lowest production-to-contract value in the entire league.

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