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DeMar DeRozan: The new Jrue Holiday?

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  • stooley wrote: View Post
    Ok. But lets say we draft Vonleh this year. He's predicted as a high ceiling, long term option that a lot of people (including you?) are very high on.

    If he develops at more or less the same pace as Jonas has so far, then we're waiting until Vonleh's third year before he's a major impact player. That will be Jonas' and TRoss' first year of whatever contract extension they get. Those guys may only be locked up for a couple more years at that point.

    So given that angle, I don't think we're guaranteed to be in a better position unless Vonleh turns into a better player than DD (which is possible, but definitely not surefire).

    AND, I think that move actually hurts our chances of being players in the 2015 free agent market. The team would take a step back next year. Analysts will chalk up our success this year to the weak conference, and people still won't take the franchise seriously.

    I think we have to prove that we're able to hold our own in the playoffs before any big name comes here. Even a close first round exit this year to BLN, and a second round appearance next year would be enough, imo.
    These are good points. And for that specific scenario you may be right, trading DD might even set us back more than the possible gains

    But, if there is a trade where we bring in a player who is a contributor within the season, and is better than DD within a couple of seasons and the team as a whole is better....how can you dismiss that trading DD is the better option?

    Comment


    • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
      These are good points. And for that specific scenario you may be right, trading DD might even set us back more than the possible gains

      But, if there is a trade where we bring in a player who is a contributor within the season, and is better than DD within a couple of seasons and the team as a whole is better....how can you dismiss that trading DD is the better option?
      Yep I agree with this. I brought up trading DD in the post before that one.

      I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that DD should be traded if enough is offered in return. The question is:

      what is the best offer for DD that you'd still turn down?

      I'd turn down a 6-8 pick this year and a 10-15 pick next year.

      I would trade DD for a top 3 2014 pick though. I'd also do a pick 4-6 this year and 8-10 next year.

      The added financial flexbility of gaining two picks coming in on rookie contracts is somewhat negligible to me. By the time those rookies develop, JV and Ross are at the same stage in their careers as DD is now. Why just kick the can down the road 2 years?
      Matt52 quotes my last line and mentioned all the benefits to trading DD to get younger. My opinion is that it isn't something that we do just for the sake of getting those tantalizing draft picks/prospects. It has to be a clear win on talent.

      The Jrue Holiday trade was a pretty obvious win for Philly and it had the added side effect of lowering them into all time tanking awfulness during a good draft year.

      The raptors won't be able to pull off the type of tank the sixers did, and I'd argue that DD might have the brighter future over Holiday at this point. So I'd want even more than that in return.
      "Bruno?
      Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
      He's terrible."

      -Superjudge, 7/23

      Hope you're wrong.

      Comment


      • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        Sacre has been mostly a 3rd stringer for a bad LA team. You could basically sign just about any 7 footer at a minimum deal and get the same kind of production. Sacre is not a very strong defensive player, and it's not just because he's on an all offence team. If he wasn't Canadian, I don't think his name would come up at all.

        I feel like people are undervaluing DeMar, and overvaluing a 2014 pick. I don't care if you hate his game, he's a good player on a very good value contract, and this draft is not as strong as it was made out to be. There are maybe some players after the top 4-5 who have an obvious chance (and just a chance) to be as good or better than DeMar, but that's a pretty terrible return value-wise.

        It's gotta be a strong deal for DeMar. Multiple picks, or a top 10 pick and a solid prospect. In my mind, I'd want a couple of young assets so you have a couple of chances to get someone surpassing DeMar, and if you are getting just picks, add a serviceable (ideally young with upside) player who should actually fit in your top 9-10, in case both picks/prospects don't develop as hoped.
        This ^^^ The bold

        As most of you know, i'm a huge fan of Demar. I always believed in his potential to be a very good player. However, i'm a Raptor fan above anything else. As a Raptor fan i find most, if not all, the trade suggestions so far in this thread to be less than desirable. In fact, i wouldn't trade Demar for anything less than multiple first round picks AND a good young player PERIOD.

        We are in a position of power with a young all-star. You don't trade a young all-star player making 9.5 million for the next 2 or 3 years for maybes or potential...... thats just me. If someone comes with an offer we CANNOT refuse, then so be it. Until then, you keep Demar and you keep this core (JV and Ross) together. I'm not so sure if Lowry goes that we will suddenly be this garbage team either.... I don't believe we have to trade DD if we can't resign Lowry.

        It's fun coming up with trade scenarios and all BUT why do some fans seem to have this incredible urge to trade their best players? We know what we have with Demar. He will continue to get better (did any of you think he would be this good this year?) Demar is a player we should be moving forward with not trading. Just my opinion. If i had to guess, I say Demar goes nowhere. I think there is more than a very good chance that he's here for the long haul. I guess we'll see won't we?

        Comment


        • BigCamB wrote: View Post
          Nope, because I'm not hating. At least bring something intelligent to the discussion instead of saying "lol everyone hates DeMar, haters" People around here always talk about this team making a significant move for once like multiple picks, a big time player etc if they're going to make a big jump and that internal growth of the current core will not be enough. If the raptors want to make a big move, surely DeMar is the most valuable asset the raptors have to include in such a move. Who else is there?
          Of course if you believe in the he current core then that's fine as well, I am very comfortable with it as well..but it's just a legit discussion and nothing personal against DeMar. It's not even to do with hating his game either.
          FYI

          The poster who started this thread has made it very clear that he DOES hate Demar's game. Actually, he mentioned it in this very thread. So i'm not sure why you're surprised some people might see this thread for what it really is..... do you really think this is the first trade Demar thread/discussion Matt52 has come up with? Maybe you haven't been around very long....

          Comment


          • special1 wrote: View Post
            FYI

            The poster who started this thread has made it very clear that he DOES hate Demar's game. Actually, he mentioned it in this very thread. So i'm not sure why you're surprised some people might see this thread for what it really is..... do you really think this is the first trade Demar thread/discussion Matt52 has come up with? Maybe you haven't been around very long....
            Hate generally refers to unjustified criticism/dislike.

            I generally see a lot of justification in these types of threads.

            It might be misguided, but these types of discussions aren't driven by 'haters'.
            "Bruno?
            Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
            He's terrible."

            -Superjudge, 7/23

            Hope you're wrong.

            Comment


            • chico wrote: View Post
              What a poile of crap of crap I'm reading in this thread, with this "we're just discussing ways to improve the team (like you have a fucking clue), and not hating on DeMar". For the most part it's the same people who've been pissing on him forever, and saying all off-season how he would never improve significantly. He proved them all wrong, in spades, and they should stfu the next time they think about spewing their expert opinions on future prospects of a player. If they weren't saying that before, they're the ones jumping all over his bad moments, and constantly whining about his long 2s. Get off of this high fucking horse about not singling out DD and only bringing him up as the most likely asset to improve. You're full of shit. You love every opportunity to dump on him, and love such a thread to downplay his many true benefits o this team.

              Character. Ever hear of that word? Think it's important in players, and team building? Ever improving skills aside, this young MAN oozes PROFESSIONAL character. In he ways he's approaches his job. Ross is primed to take over his spot? WTF do you know about Ross's approach to being a profssional NBAer, and whether o not he be like the many highly skilled BOYS who never become pro basktball MEN lke DD? From stories of the GM hauling him aside and tellin him to ake bete care of himself and get the rest (not partyin, not staying up all night playing video games), he ain't close to being a pro yet. All the skills in the world won't get him far unless he can get it through his skull to o be a respnsible pro, like never stops showing.

              The history of the NBA i littered with more skilled players that never get it, than those like DeMar. Seriously. Why do you think guys like Hayes and Magloire have long careers, despite all the more "skilled" kids coming out of college every year?

              There's a ret deal more value to a young 24 yar old DeMar than his fucking stats and long 2s. The young man is a KEEPER for a team trying to build a nevr say die, always hav to improve, culture, but y'll want to fantasize about getting some untried kids that could be highly skilled flameouts in a few years, or even cancers that destroy the chemistry being built on this young team at the moment. You havent a fucking clue about the character of these improvements your "expertise" is discussing. He's a great young man, dedicated to hard work, improving, winning, loyal to the team and city, only 24, and on a very good contract. WTF?? Get behind him, support him, instead of constantly nitpicking him, and "looking for ways to zimprove the team" by getting rid of him.

              It's not "THE fan base" that's twisted. It's a significant portion of the RR fanbase that are fucked up.
              I love your passion and I agree with many of the things you wrote. I also caught that the same people who "hated" Demars game are the ones coming up with most of the trade scenarios BUT I don't think these guys really have a clue..... so with that being said. Just know that you will rub some people the wrong way, but others will notice that you are speaking the truth (however harsh it may appear).

              Comment


              • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                But, if there is a trade where we bring in a player who is a contributor within the season, and is better than DD within a couple of seasons and the team as a whole is better....how can you dismiss that trading DD is the better option?
                If only it were that cut and dry ...

                Not sure why the other team would do this trade then? If they could just wait a couple seasons and get the better (than an All-Star) player.

                Comment


                • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                  This is all hypothetical to determine what that "right return" should be.

                  ...

                  No one knows....but I for one like discussing it so stop calling the thread pointless and the DD-hate and all that crap and see where the thread goes. Please.

                  I would like to hear some idea trades of the value you think DD can return...I'm really yo-yoing on what his value is
                  I don't know what he can return. I have an idea of what I'd like him to return.

                  First off, I think a top 5 pick is possible, but not too likely, especially this year...though quite easily possible in other years.
                  Thing to remember: Ray Allen at 32 years old was traded for a 5th pick. The whole deal was Allen and Big Baby (newly drafted) for the 5th pick (Jeff Green), Delonte West and Wally Szczerbiak. Now Ray and DeMar are different players in styles of game, but similar in the sense that if DeMar keeps playing this well, he's an all-star who can't be the alpha dog on a championship team. That's Allen for a top 5 pick in a pretty strong draft, and 2 decent quality players, one young and one older (though Szcerbiak was still producing when he played, he was already physically deteriorating).

                  So looking at that, and saying these are just examples that I myself am not sure I'd actually do....

                  -Scenario 1: A top 5-6 pick along with one or two capable rotation players. Not sure I'd do this, but I would listen to a team's offer.
                  Possible example -> Milwaukee's pick this year + Pachulia /Ilyasova + Delfino for DeMar (and possibly filler like Tyler or Novak...)
                  Toronto maintains 2016 cap space (possibly increases with Ilyasova and Delfino), gets 2 rotation players, and a top 5 pick (Exum, Parker or Randle).
                  Caveat....This only could possibly happen if Milwaukee drops out of the top 2 spots (Still don't think they'd trade the pick, but can't imagine they would if it's a first or second overall).

                  -Scenario 2: 2 lottery picks (unlikely either is top 5-6) and young player with upside (or maybe serviceable role player in his prime). Could be pretty intriguing.
                  Possible example -> 2014 and 2015 picks from Orlando (they have an extra 2014 one so they can trade two in a row I believe) and Victor Oladipo for DeMar (and filler if needed)
                  Toronto gets two shots to get a decent player in the draft two years in a row, but given they could be lower lottery picks, Orlando gives up their prized youngster.
                  Don't know if/why Orlando would do this, but my thoughts involve...Oladipo looks smaller than the 6'4'' he's listed at, and doesn't seem to have a natural fit at either guard position. Looks like 6th man material to me, even if it's a very high-calibre, near all-star 6th man. They have picks to spare as well. Afflalo also becomes fully expendable so they can use him to get something else.
                  Note: Orlando could also work in the 1st scenario...their higher pick this year + Afflalo + Harkless....I might accept that.

                  -Scenario 3: an established underrated or lower end star + a pick or prospect
                  Possible example -> Atlanta sends us Al Horford + a 1st rounder (unlikely, but would want it) or Dennis Schroeder (might be possible) for DeMar and filler (our 2nd rounder and/or Tyler Hansbrough?).
                  Could also sub Horford out for Millsap in this deal.
                  I think there's no way Atlanta would actually do such a deal, but if they called me offering Al Horford, I'd struggle to contain my excitement. If it's Millsap, definitely needs to include a 1st rounder because of age difference with DeMar, and since Horford is really who I'd want.

                  Again, I'm not saying I'd necessarily do any of these deals, but I'd definitely consider it and depending on makeup of the deal could be totally fine with them.

                  Comment


                  • To the OP, I don't see the similarities between Demars situation and when Jrue was traded at all.
                    I see similarities to when Philly traded Iggy for Bynum... but not the Jrue-Noel trade.

                    Comment


                    • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                      If only it were that cut and dry ...

                      Not sure why the other team would do this trade then? If they could just wait a couple seasons and get the better (than an All-Star) player.
                      Why? Because other teams have different agendas and are in different markets. Can Milwaukee, with a perennial mandate to at least compete for playoffs, wait 2 more years of lotto-ball basketball? Especially as they're trying to fund a new arena?

                      Can any team in a smaller market stand 2 more years of low ticket sales with no hope for playoff basketball and not risk going down a path of having to sell/move the team? Or damaging fan relations and sales in a way that will extend beyond those couple of years?

                      Basketball is a business. Most everything is done to make money, including the attempts to build winners (or false hope).

                      Comment


                      • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                        I don't know what he can return. I have an idea of what I'd like him to return.

                        First off, I think a top 5 pick is possible, but not too likely, especially this year...though quite easily possible in other years.
                        Thing to remember: Ray Allen at 32 years old was traded for a 5th pick. The whole deal was Allen and Big Baby (newly drafted) for the 5th pick (Jeff Green), Delonte West and Wally Szczerbiak. Now Ray and DeMar are different players in styles of game, but similar in the sense that if DeMar keeps playing this well, he's an all-star who can't be the alpha dog on a championship team. That's Allen for a top 5 pick in a pretty strong draft, and 2 decent quality players, one young and one older (though Szcerbiak was still producing when he played, he was already physically deteriorating).

                        So looking at that, and saying these are just examples that I myself am not sure I'd actually do....

                        -Scenario 1: A top 5-6 pick along with one or two capable rotation players. Not sure I'd do this, but I would listen to a team's offer.
                        Possible example -> Milwaukee's pick this year + Pachulia /Ilyasova + Delfino for DeMar (and possibly filler like Tyler or Novak...)
                        Toronto maintains 2016 cap space (possibly increases with Ilyasova and Delfino), gets 2 rotation players, and a top 5 pick (Exum, Parker or Randle).
                        Caveat....This only could possibly happen if Milwaukee drops out of the top 2 spots (Still don't think they'd trade the pick, but can't imagine they would if it's a first or second overall).

                        -Scenario 2: 2 lottery picks (unlikely either is top 5-6) and young player with upside (or maybe serviceable role player in his prime). Could be pretty intriguing.
                        Possible example -> 2014 and 2015 picks from Orlando (they have an extra 2014 one so they can trade two in a row I believe) and Victor Oladipo for DeMar (and filler if needed)
                        Toronto gets two shots to get a decent player in the draft two years in a row, but given they could be lower lottery picks, Orlando gives up their prized youngster.
                        Don't know if/why Orlando would do this, but my thoughts involve...Oladipo looks smaller than the 6'4'' he's listed at, and doesn't seem to have a natural fit at either guard position. Looks like 6th man material to me, even if it's a very high-calibre, near all-star 6th man. They have picks to spare as well. Afflalo also becomes fully expendable so they can use him to get something else.
                        Note: Orlando could also work in the 1st scenario...their higher pick this year + Afflalo + Harkless....I might accept that.

                        -Scenario 3: an established underrated or lower end star + a pick or prospect
                        Possible example -> Atlanta sends us Al Horford + a 1st rounder (unlikely, but would want it) or Dennis Schroeder (might be possible) for DeMar and filler (our 2nd rounder and/or Tyler Hansbrough?).
                        Could also sub Horford out for Millsap in this deal.
                        I think there's no way Atlanta would actually do such a deal, but if they called me offering Al Horford, I'd struggle to contain my excitement. If it's Millsap, definitely needs to include a 1st rounder because of age difference with DeMar, and since Horford is really who I'd want.

                        Again, I'm not saying I'd necessarily do any of these deals, but I'd definitely consider it and depending on makeup of the deal could be totally fine with them.
                        I'd do that Orlando trade in a second and laugh all the way to the bank lol.

                        The Atlanta one would be intriguing but I think I'd still hold on to the younger and healthier Demar so as not to mess up chemistry.

                        Bringing in Horford creates a whole bunch of issues: way too many PFs. Amir, a team leader, losing starter minutes. Demar, a team leader, being gone. Noone to play the wing...
                        "Bruno?
                        Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                        He's terrible."

                        -Superjudge, 7/23

                        Hope you're wrong.

                        Comment


                        • special1 wrote: View Post
                          I love your passion and I agree with many of the things you wrote. I also caught that the same people who "hated" Demars game are the ones coming up with most of the trade scenarios BUT I don't think these guys really have a clue..... so with that being said. Just know that you will rub some people the wrong way, but others will notice that you are speaking the truth (however harsh it may appear).
                          I come up with trade scenarios and I don't hate DeMar or his game (except his still inconsistent and too often complacent attitude on D for my tastes). It's just for fun.

                          Just wait for when the season actually ends and people need to kill time between that and the draft/free agency. Sure we'll see a lot more crazy crap.

                          Comment


                          • special1 wrote: View Post
                            I love your passion and I agree with many of the things you wrote. I also caught that the same people who "hated" Demars game are the ones coming up with most of the trade scenarios BUT I don't think these guys really have a clue..... so with that being said. Just know that you will rub some people the wrong way, but others will notice that you are speaking the truth (however harsh it may appear).
                            From what I've read, the majority of opinions seem to suggest an expected return along the lines of what 'Melo returned for Denver, which I view as decent praise for DeRozan.

                            I admit, I'm torn on the issue, because I worry that teams are overvaluing 2014 1st round picks (or at least the media is). I think any trade for DeRozan would need to return one of two things: an equal quality all-star OR 2 top-tier assets (ie: can't miss prospect and top-5 pick).


                            I also think DeRozan is the natural target to have a group-think brainstorm session about what he might return in trade:

                            JV & Ross
                            - young players with tremendous potential, who are in the midst of breakout seasons, on rookie-scale contracts (they aren't going anywhere and due to their relatively low salary, wouldn't return much via salary matching trade rules)

                            Lowry
                            - free agent can't really be discussed in trade talk, future status is still unknown, supply & demand status of PG VS SG results in Lowry likely have far less trade value even if we were to discuss it

                            Amir
                            - expiring contract, some question whether he's even a starting PF on a contending team, far less trade value than DeRozan

                            DeRozan
                            - given his unexpected improvements this season and all-star appearance, it's only natural to wonder if he's peaked and/or if you could successfully demand an outrageous return in trade, as the epitome of a 'sell high' move


                            Regardless what we all discuss on here, whether you support trading him or keeping him, I think we're all in agreement of a few things:
                            1) DeRozan has great trade value and demands a great return
                            2) MU will do whatever he feels is in the best long-term interest of the team
                            3) if MU does trade DeRozan, he will maximize the return

                            Given those key points, what's wrong with floating ideas to get feedback and hear other opinions?
                            Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Apr 7, 2014, 02:08 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Primer wrote: View Post
                              Some possibilities:

                              To Lakers for 2014 1st and Sacre.

                              To Sacramento for 2014 1st and McLemore.

                              To Detroit for 2014 1st and KCP.

                              To Cleveland for 2014 1st and Anthony Bennett.

                              Tried to be realistic in getting back a 2014 1st in the 5-10 range along with a prospect on a rookie deal. I really like Demar but I honestly wouldn't be upset with a deal like the ones above. The reason being is if we resign Lowry and add two 1st round draft picks, we won't necessarily take a step back. Ross becomes the starting SG, and we use the picks/prospects/FA to fill in the gaps, we're still a solid playoff team in the East, but with much more financial flexibility and hopefully better fits long term contender wise.
                              Value wise, 1st and McLemore would be amazing

                              Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

                              Comment


                              • stooley wrote: View Post
                                I'd do that Orlando trade in a second and laugh all the way to the bank lol.

                                The Atlanta one would be intriguing but I think I'd still hold on to the younger and healthier Demar so as not to mess up chemistry.

                                Bringing in Horford creates a whole bunch of issues: way too many PFs. Amir, a team leader, losing starter minutes. Demar, a team leader, being gone. Noone to play the wing...
                                I agree with the wing issue, but not the rest. Pat is a RFA. S&T him. Hansbrough might have to be included in the deal (or even Pat if that's the S&T). Horford and Amir can both play both big spots.

                                But yes, we'd have big problems at the wing.

                                I just love Al Horford. IF things don't change much, he'd be my #2 target behind Durant in 2016. And because of his age at that time, if we have max room, could possibly sign him and another quality free agent. People talk about what West has meant for Indy...Well I think Horford is a better all-around player and leader than West, and would fit in pretty perfectly with our core.

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