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  • #61
    ebrian wrote: View Post
    To me it just seems a bit odd to be browsing a Raptors forum with 8 posts under your belt and telling people who are having an intelligent discussion that they're wasting their time.

    Anyway, that's as far as I'm willing to judge another person.

    Many of the teams listed there were built, not necessarily with the drafted players, but by trading draft picks. Miami, for example, would never have been able to clear out their cap to acquire Bosh and Wade if not for having draft picks to trade for expiring contracts. Boston Celtics Big 3 wouldn't exist if not for the 5th overall pick tanked for in 2006. I don't really have time to look up the others, but that covers a good chunk of the last 5 championships.

    Random side note: I had a random thought while watching the Heat tonight. What if Chris Bosh wanted the team to trade Bargnani all along? What if him learning to shoot 3s was his way of saying "Hey guys, I can shoot 3s now. But I'm not super great and blocking shots and defending, so trade that guy for one who can!"? Because he was at least worth something in those days.

    Matt, the one deal that I think might work is the Millsap one. Utah is literally a DeRozan-type away from being a perennial playoff team again. They already have Favors waiting in the wings, who may not have the motor but certainly has way more talent than Millsap. Thing for me is that if Colangelo is retained, I can't see him trading DeRozan. He's already on thin ice (even if extended) and the average fan doesn't really understand. I think most people would be mad if DeRozan were traded.
    I think the bigger roadblock with Colangelo trading DD would be that he's loyal (to a fault) to "his" players, not necessarily his fear of how the fans would perceive it. That would definitely be a trade that addresses the starting PF problem, however I fear it would open up a similar looking hole at the SG spot.

    Comment


    • #62
      Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
      If Colangelo gets fired and you are still watching Leafs play off hockey, it doesn't affect the Leafs in any way.

      Not all fans are the same though. They think differently. I wish I could agree with the last sentence in your post but I can't 'cause it's not true.
      They might think differently but their alternative options are limited. It's not like the GM hiring process is open to the public.

      There really isn't anything else for a third party to do besides carry on with their life. Unless you're talking about the few who keep hitting F5 on Twitter, RealGM WireTap or Hoopshype Rumor's hoping for some new developments. I don't think people like that were watching the Leafs games in the first place. If you were already watching the Leafs playoffs and they had held on in last 8 minutes of that game, it's more likely you're watching the next round than stalking Tim Leiweke.

      Anyway, I don't care deeply about this so I'll stop now. I think the real truth to this is that if Leafs Playoffs was a legitimate reason to delaying a decision on Colangelo's fate, it probably had more to do with the fact that if he got fired while the Leafs were still in the Stanley Cup hunt, it wouldn't get enough media attention. You'd be watching Sportsnet and they'd have their usual 28 minutes of hockey analysis, and at the end the host would say "In other news, Tiger Woods won and Bryan Colangelo just got fired. Let's show some of Tiger's highlights."
      Last edited by ebrian; Thu May 16, 2013, 09:18 AM.
      your pal,
      ebrian

      Comment


      • #63
        ebrian wrote: View Post
        To me it just seems a bit odd to be browsing a Raptors forum with 8 posts under your belt and telling people who are having an intelligent discussion that they're wasting their time.

        Anyway, that's as far as I'm willing to judge another person.

        Many of the teams listed there were built, not necessarily with the drafted players, but by trading draft picks. Miami, for example, would never have been able to clear out their cap to acquire Bosh and Wade if not for having draft picks to trade for expiring contracts. Boston Celtics Big 3 wouldn't exist if not for the 5th overall pick tanked for in 2006. I don't really have time to look up the others, but that covers a good chunk of the last 5 championships.

        Random side note: I had a random thought while watching the Heat tonight. What if Chris Bosh wanted the team to trade Bargnani all along? What if him learning to shoot 3s was his way of saying "Hey guys, I can shoot 3s now. But I'm not super great and blocking shots and defending, so trade that guy for one who can!"? Because he was at least worth something in those days.

        Matt, the one deal that I think might work is the Millsap one. Utah is literally a DeRozan-type away from being a perennial playoff team again. They already have Favors waiting in the wings, who may not have the motor but certainly has way more talent than Millsap. Thing for me is that if Colangelo is retained, I can't see him trading DeRozan. He's already on thin ice (even if extended) and the average fan doesn't really understand. I think most people would be mad if DeRozan were traded.
        I am glad that the first thing you and Matt52 point out is the amount of post I have on this site.

        Not to dwell on your comments but I think a few post before mine this was covered we fix one hole by getting Milsap and create another gapping hole at SG what sense does that make. And trading Derozan is not an option for me at this point with all the time invested in him and the growth he has made. Bargani is the trade chip, see what he yields you and then fill the other holes that are left after with min contracts.

        Comment


        • #64
          Canmanxl wrote: View Post
          I am glad that the first thing you and Matt52 point out is the amount of post I have on this site.

          Not to dwell on your comments but I think a few post before mine this was covered we fix one hole by getting Milsap and create another gapping hole at SG what sense does that make. And trading Derozan is not an option for me at this point with all the time invested in him and the growth he has made. Bargani is the trade chip, see what he yields you and then fill the other holes that are left after with min contracts.
          I don't think a gaping hole would be produced at SG in that scenario, since the combination of Fields & Ross would be more than capable of replacing DeRozan. A fourth wing could easily be signed with the MLE (ie: Dunleavy would be a great addition to a wing rotation of Gay, Fields and Ross).

          Plus, a DeRozan-Millsap type deal would address the biggest need, which is PF depth. Acy is no more than a 3rd PF hustle guy at this point, who shouldn't be relied upon for big minutes. Acquiring Millsap would not only improve the starting lineup, but by bumping Johnson to the backup PF / 3rd big role, the 2nd unit would also be greatly improved.

          As for Bargnani, he may be the top trade priority, but he's far from being the top (as far as value goes) trade chip. I seriously doubt he'd return near the same quality player that a guy like DeRozan would (ie: Millsap). If Bargnani could return good value, in terms of talent, picks and salary, he would've already been traded.

          Comment


          • #65
            Canmanxl wrote: View Post
            I am glad that the first thing you and Matt52 point out is the amount of post I have on this site.

            Not to dwell on your comments but I think a few post before mine this was covered we fix one hole by getting Milsap and create another gapping hole at SG what sense does that make. And trading Derozan is not an option for me at this point with all the time invested in him and the growth he has made. Bargani is the trade chip, see what he yields you and then fill the other holes that are left after with min contracts.
            Some (myself included) would argue that a "gaping hole" exists at SG even if we keep DeRozan....

            Comment


            • #66
              Canmanxl wrote: View Post
              I am glad that the first thing you and Matt52 point out is the amount of post I have on this site.

              Not to dwell on your comments but I think a few post before mine this was covered we fix one hole by getting Milsap and create another gapping hole at SG what sense does that make. And trading Derozan is not an option for me at this point with all the time invested in him and the growth he has made. Bargani is the trade chip, see what he yields you and then fill the other holes that are left after with min contracts.
              I found it strange that you said you and I go back and forth all the time when I believe we only had one interaction prior and you had just 7 posts. I don't consider that going back and forth all the time and there was never an intent to discredit you or your opinions based on the number of posts here at RR.

              Comment


              • #67
                Exactly. Here are the scenarios:

                Keeping DeRozan -
                - starting SG begins his $38M/4year contract and is lacking the distance shooting and shot creation abilities needed at SG
                - $18M devoted to the position next year, where only half of that is getting major minutes and other half rots on bench
                - Amir Johnson as a starting PF is okay but not great
                - puts pressure on JV

                Trading DeRozan -
                - $9M towards two players who should adequately fill what is needed at SG
                - a starting PF that moves Amir to the bench where he's likely to excel/dominate
                - takes significant pressure off JV

                I'd rather have Fields/Ross try to fill the SG hole than Amir continuing to fill the PF hole.
                your pal,
                ebrian

                Comment


                • #68
                  If DeRozan is traded I would rather have Ross be thrown into the fire as the starting SG hes the long term answer not Fields when Fields contract expires I dont think Raps are going to extend especially if hes playing like how he is. DeRozan becoming the starter helped him a lot I think it would be the same deal with Ross.

                  Lowry/?/Telfair
                  Ross/Fields
                  Gay/?/Acy
                  ?/Amir/Acy
                  JV/?/Gray

                  realistically though DeRozan will still be here, the wing tandem of him alongside Gay will be given a run and the trade doesnt need to happen if they can make a couple of threes a game. The organization will be looking to shed Fields Bargs Klieza to free up some cash and give the bench wing primarily to Ross, because I assume either deMar or Gay will be soaking up a good 37 mins a game (likely DeMar)

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    ebrian wrote: View Post
                    Exactly. Here are the scenarios:

                    Keeping DeRozan -
                    - starting SG begins his $38M/4year contract and is lacking the distance shooting and shot creation abilities needed at SG
                    - $18M devoted to the position next year, where only half of that is getting major minutes and other half rots on bench
                    - Amir Johnson as a starting PF is okay but not great
                    - puts pressure on JV

                    Trading DeRozan -
                    - $9M towards two players who should adequately fill what is needed at SG
                    - a starting PF that moves Amir to the bench where he's likely to excel/dominate
                    - takes significant pressure off JV

                    I'd rather have Fields/Ross try to fill the SG hole than Amir continuing to fill the PF hole.
                    Are you nuts? Fields and Ross are barely adequate for the bench SG spot right now, no fucking way they adequately fill the starting and backup SG spot. Amir adequately fills the starting PF spot a hell of a lot better than Ross/Fields do at SG.

                    Here's some stats to highlight the disparity between DD and Fields/Ross. Now these comparisons work head to head since DD played 37 minutes per game, and the Fields/Ross combo also played 37 minutes per game (20 Fields, 17 Ross).

                    TS%:
                    DD .523
                    LF .487
                    TR .491

                    So we immediately lose a bunch of offensive efficiency. How about getting to the line, which is even more important since it puts the other team in foul trouble and gets the Raps into the bonus?

                    FTM/FTA and FT%
                    DD 4.3/5.2 at .831
                    LF 0.7/1.0 at .642
                    TR 0.4/0.6 at .714
                    LF/TR combo 1.1/1.6 at .688

                    So we get 3.6 less FTA per game and 3.2 less made per game. This "adequate" combo of yours is not holding up so well.

                    Now lets check ORtg, in case I'm missing something.
                    DD 105
                    LF 101
                    TR 98

                    Once again, DD is a big step better than his replacements, and TR has been more or less atrocious on offense (big dunks and not much else) so far. He's young and he'll get there, but it's most likely not going to be this coming season.

                    How about the 3 ball. That's our biggest gripe against DD's offensive game at the moment. Will the backups be able to improve our 3 point shooting?

                    3PTA/3PTM and 3PT%:
                    DD 0.4/1.5 at .283
                    LF 0.0/0.3 at .143
                    TR 0.9/2.7 at .332
                    LF/TR combo 0.9/3.0 at 0.3

                    Maybe you forgot how bad Fields shooting has been, but it's embarassing. Ross has a decent stroke, but he shoots a ton of them and is still hitting them at a low percentage. At least DD recognized it's a weak part of his game and didn't huck up a ton of bad 3's. The LF/TR combo is pretty close to the same as DD but just shooting a few more 3's. DD has already said that the 3 will be his main focus this offseason, and he has been getting better each year at it, so a reasonable projection would be for him to meet or exceed the LF/TR combo, so once again, no improvement from the "adequate" backups, but at least they don't hurt us here, they're just poor at shooting 3's like DD is.

                    Offensive is also facilitating for others, so lets check out assists.

                    Ast per game:
                    DD 2.5
                    LF 1.2
                    TR 0.7
                    LF/TR combo 1.9

                    Nope, we actually get less assists from our two "adequate" backups in the same amount of minutes. Once again the offense suffers.

                    How about rebounds, they are important on both ends of the floor. Maybe the backups blow DD away in grabbing the ball.

                    Rbds per game:
                    DD 3.9
                    LF 4.1
                    TR 2.0
                    LF/TR combo 6.1

                    Finally, something the backups improve on over DD. It's a nice jump up, but not too big. An extra 2 boards a game won't offset how much worse they make the offense compared to DD.

                    How about defense? Maybe the backups play much better defense than DD so their offensive shortcomings won't matter so much.

                    DRtg
                    DD 110
                    LF 108
                    TR 109

                    A very slight improvement on D, but hardly anything to write home about. Basically they are all inadequate defenders at this point. So the backups aren't going to make up for their offensive shortcomings with vastly improved D since they are more or less just as bad as DD on that end of the floor.

                    Maybe we can improve the PF position so much that it offsets how much worse we've made the SG position by trading away DD? Problem is, Amir is actually way more effective as a starter than off the bench. Just check out his game log. It seems like when Amir comes off the bench, he has much more of a tendency to foul. Maybe because he knows he's not being counted on for 30+ minutes so he's more aggressive. Either way, it leads to decreased output so I'm not seeing Amir off the bench offsetting the loss of DD in the starting lineup. When Amir started he had some monster games and I'd like to see a full season of him and JV starting. Then we could focus on bringing in someone like Carl Landry to bolster the bench PF spot, as opposed to trading away DD for a roughyl lateral move in Milsap (he's really not much better than Amir, if at all. Amir has a better Ortg, and rebounds better, with the same DRtg).


                    Now, I'm not saying we can't trade DD. Just that if we do, we need to be bringing in an upgrade at SG (or at least a comparable player with a different skillset). The current backups, who you claim are "adeqaute", aren't adequate at all. As for PF, outside of one of the star PF's, it'd be tough to bring in someone that is a significant upgrade over Amir. So, like I said above, probably more pragmatic to focus on bringing in a good backup PF to solidify that position. Amir as a starter at PF may not be the long term solution, but it's not so easy to find guys who are actually better than him at starting PF.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      I don't think a gaping hole would be produced at SG in that scenario, since the combination of Fields & Ross would be more than capable of replacing DeRozan. A fourth wing could easily be signed with the MLE (ie: Dunleavy would be a great addition to a wing rotation of Gay, Fields and Ross).

                      Plus, a DeRozan-Millsap type deal would address the biggest need, which is PF depth. Acy is no more than a 3rd PF hustle guy at this point, who shouldn't be relied upon for big minutes. Acquiring Millsap would not only improve the starting lineup, but by bumping Johnson to the backup PF / 3rd big role, the 2nd unit would also be greatly improved.

                      As for Bargnani, he may be the top trade priority, but he's far from being the top (as far as value goes) trade chip. I seriously doubt he'd return near the same quality player that a guy like DeRozan would (ie: Millsap). If Bargnani could return good value, in terms of talent, picks and salary, he would've already been traded.
                      I think at this point we are putting to much stock into a rookie to address this area. Fields is a smart player but I don't know if his numbers are on par with Derozan. I understand the trade value for Bargani may be a little underwhelming right now but if using him as a trade chip you would hope he can net you a pg or pf in return. If the Boozer deal is still on the table I would maybe do that. But I would love to see David West in a Raptors uni.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Primer wrote: View Post
                        Are you nuts? Fields and Ross are barely adequate for the bench SG spot right now, no fucking way they adequately fill the starting and backup SG spot. Amir adequately fills the starting PF spot a hell of a lot better than Ross/Fields do at SG.

                        Here's some stats to highlight the disparity between DD and Fields/Ross. Now these comparisons work head to head since DD played 37 minutes per game, and the Fields/Ross combo also played 37 minutes per game (20 Fields, 17 Ross).

                        TS%:
                        DD .523
                        LF .487
                        TR .491

                        So we immediately lose a bunch of offensive efficiency. How about getting to the line, which is even more important since it puts the other team in foul trouble and gets the Raps into the bonus?

                        FTM/FTA and FT%
                        DD 4.3/5.2 at .831
                        LF 0.7/1.0 at .642
                        TR 0.4/0.6 at .714
                        LF/TR combo 1.1/1.6 at .688

                        So we get 3.6 less FTA per game and 3.2 less made per game. This "adequate" combo of yours is not holding up so well.

                        Now lets check ORtg, in case I'm missing something.
                        DD 105
                        LF 101
                        TR 98

                        Once again, DD is a big step better than his replacements, and TR has been more or less atrocious on offense (big dunks and not much else) so far. He's young and he'll get there, but it's most likely not going to be this coming season.

                        How about the 3 ball. That's our biggest gripe against DD's offensive game at the moment. Will the backups be able to improve our 3 point shooting?

                        3PTA/3PTM and 3PT%:
                        DD 0.4/1.5 at .283
                        LF 0.0/0.3 at .143
                        TR 0.9/2.7 at .332
                        LF/TR combo 0.9/3.0 at 0.3

                        Maybe you forgot how bad Fields shooting has been, but it's embarassing. Ross has a decent stroke, but he shoots a ton of them and is still hitting them at a low percentage. At least DD recognized it's a weak part of his game and didn't huck up a ton of bad 3's. The LF/TR combo is pretty close to the same as DD but just shooting a few more 3's. DD has already said that the 3 will be his main focus this offseason, and he has been getting better each year at it, so a reasonable projection would be for him to meet or exceed the LF/TR combo, so once again, no improvement from the "adequate" backups, but at least they don't hurt us here, they're just poor at shooting 3's like DD is.

                        Offensive is also facilitating for others, so lets check out assists.

                        Ast per game:
                        DD 2.5
                        LF 1.2
                        TR 0.7
                        LF/TR combo 1.9

                        Nope, we actually get less assists from our two "adequate" backups in the same amount of minutes. Once again the offense suffers.

                        How about rebounds, they are important on both ends of the floor. Maybe the backups blow DD away in grabbing the ball.

                        Rbds per game:
                        DD 3.9
                        LF 4.1
                        TR 2.0
                        LF/TR combo 6.1

                        Finally, something the backups improve on over DD. It's a nice jump up, but not too big. An extra 2 boards a game won't offset how much worse they make the offense compared to DD.

                        How about defense? Maybe the backups play much better defense than DD so their offensive shortcomings won't matter so much.

                        DRtg
                        DD 110
                        LF 108
                        TR 109

                        A very slight improvement on D, but hardly anything to write home about. Basically they are all inadequate defenders at this point. So the backups aren't going to make up for their offensive shortcomings with vastly improved D since they are more or less just as bad as DD on that end of the floor.

                        Maybe we can improve the PF position so much that it offsets how much worse we've made the SG position by trading away DD? Problem is, Amir is actually way more effective as a starter than off the bench. Just check out his game log. It seems like when Amir comes off the bench, he has much more of a tendency to foul. Maybe because he knows he's not being counted on for 30+ minutes so he's more aggressive. Either way, it leads to decreased output so I'm not seeing Amir off the bench offsetting the loss of DD in the starting lineup. When Amir started he had some monster games and I'd like to see a full season of him and JV starting. Then we could focus on bringing in someone like Carl Landry to bolster the bench PF spot, as opposed to trading away DD for a roughyl lateral move in Milsap (he's really not much better than Amir, if at all. Amir has a better Ortg, and rebounds better, with the same DRtg).


                        Now, I'm not saying we can't trade DD. Just that if we do, we need to be bringing in an upgrade at SG (or at least a comparable player with a different skillset). The current backups, who you claim are "adeqaute", aren't adequate at all. As for PF, outside of one of the star PF's, it'd be tough to bring in someone that is a significant upgrade over Amir. So, like I said above, probably more pragmatic to focus on bringing in a good backup PF to solidify that position. Amir as a starter at PF may not be the long term solution, but it's not so easy to find guys who are actually better than him at starting PF.
                        +1

                        I agree with what is said here. Demar is not often injured, he plays hard and it would be hard to replace him. Especially with with the likes of Fields and a unproven Ross.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          It's a good post Primer and I can't argue with those numbers, but those numbers are for what would have happened if we had thrust a rookie and an injured player into DeRozan's spot this past season.

                          Sorry to just end it there, I know you put a lot of work into your post.
                          your pal,
                          ebrian

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Primer wrote: View Post
                            Are you nuts? Fields and Ross are barely adequate for the bench SG spot right now, no fucking way they adequately fill the starting and backup SG spot. Amir adequately fills the starting PF spot a hell of a lot better than Ross/Fields do at SG.

                            Here's some stats to highlight the disparity between DD and Fields/Ross. Now these comparisons work head to head since DD played 37 minutes per game, and the Fields/Ross combo also played 37 minutes per game (20 Fields, 17 Ross).

                            TS%:
                            DD .523
                            LF .487
                            TR .491

                            So we immediately lose a bunch of offensive efficiency. How about getting to the line, which is even more important since it puts the other team in foul trouble and gets the Raps into the bonus?

                            FTM/FTA and FT%
                            DD 4.3/5.2 at .831
                            LF 0.7/1.0 at .642
                            TR 0.4/0.6 at .714
                            LF/TR combo 1.1/1.6 at .688

                            So we get 3.6 less FTA per game and 3.2 less made per game. This "adequate" combo of yours is not holding up so well.

                            Now lets check ORtg, in case I'm missing something.
                            DD 105
                            LF 101
                            TR 98

                            Once again, DD is a big step better than his replacements, and TR has been more or less atrocious on offense (big dunks and not much else) so far. He's young and he'll get there, but it's most likely not going to be this coming season.

                            How about the 3 ball. That's our biggest gripe against DD's offensive game at the moment. Will the backups be able to improve our 3 point shooting?

                            3PTA/3PTM and 3PT%:
                            DD 0.4/1.5 at .283
                            LF 0.0/0.3 at .143
                            TR 0.9/2.7 at .332
                            LF/TR combo 0.9/3.0 at 0.3

                            Maybe you forgot how bad Fields shooting has been, but it's embarassing. Ross has a decent stroke, but he shoots a ton of them and is still hitting them at a low percentage. At least DD recognized it's a weak part of his game and didn't huck up a ton of bad 3's. The LF/TR combo is pretty close to the same as DD but just shooting a few more 3's. DD has already said that the 3 will be his main focus this offseason, and he has been getting better each year at it, so a reasonable projection would be for him to meet or exceed the LF/TR combo, so once again, no improvement from the "adequate" backups, but at least they don't hurt us here, they're just poor at shooting 3's like DD is.

                            Offensive is also facilitating for others, so lets check out assists.

                            Ast per game:
                            DD 2.5
                            LF 1.2
                            TR 0.7
                            LF/TR combo 1.9

                            Nope, we actually get less assists from our two "adequate" backups in the same amount of minutes. Once again the offense suffers.

                            How about rebounds, they are important on both ends of the floor. Maybe the backups blow DD away in grabbing the ball.

                            Rbds per game:
                            DD 3.9
                            LF 4.1
                            TR 2.0
                            LF/TR combo 6.1

                            Finally, something the backups improve on over DD. It's a nice jump up, but not too big. An extra 2 boards a game won't offset how much worse they make the offense compared to DD.

                            How about defense? Maybe the backups play much better defense than DD so their offensive shortcomings won't matter so much.

                            DRtg
                            DD 110
                            LF 108
                            TR 109

                            A very slight improvement on D, but hardly anything to write home about. Basically they are all inadequate defenders at this point. So the backups aren't going to make up for their offensive shortcomings with vastly improved D since they are more or less just as bad as DD on that end of the floor.

                            Maybe we can improve the PF position so much that it offsets how much worse we've made the SG position by trading away DD? Problem is, Amir is actually way more effective as a starter than off the bench. Just check out his game log. It seems like when Amir comes off the bench, he has much more of a tendency to foul. Maybe because he knows he's not being counted on for 30+ minutes so he's more aggressive. Either way, it leads to decreased output so I'm not seeing Amir off the bench offsetting the loss of DD in the starting lineup. When Amir started he had some monster games and I'd like to see a full season of him and JV starting. Then we could focus on bringing in someone like Carl Landry to bolster the bench PF spot, as opposed to trading away DD for a roughyl lateral move in Milsap (he's really not much better than Amir, if at all. Amir has a better Ortg, and rebounds better, with the same DRtg).


                            Now, I'm not saying we can't trade DD. Just that if we do, we need to be bringing in an upgrade at SG (or at least a comparable player with a different skillset). The current backups, who you claim are "adeqaute", aren't adequate at all. As for PF, outside of one of the star PF's, it'd be tough to bring in someone that is a significant upgrade over Amir. So, like I said above, probably more pragmatic to focus on bringing in a good backup PF to solidify that position. Amir as a starter at PF may not be the long term solution, but it's not so easy to find guys who are actually better than him at starting PF.
                            ebrian wrote: View Post
                            It's a good post Primer and I can't argue with those numbers, but those numbers are for what would have happened if we had thrust a rookie and an injured player into DeRozan's spot this past season.

                            Sorry to just end it there, I know you put a lot of work into your post.
                            It was a really good post.

                            I would counter with a few points:

                            1) Fields has shown an ability to hit the three. He had an undiagnosed nerve injury that turned his hand in to a claw. He made strides by the end of the season but obviously his shot was still shaky at best. After dealing with an injury for likely over a year, coming back in season and expecting him to return to his previous ways in 3-4 months is a bit unrealistic. I have faith that continuing rehab with an off season of getting his form correct will lead to improved results. If Ed Davis could fix his free throws, Fields can return to form on shot. And even if he can't get back to 38-39%, I think a return to low 30's is certainly possible.

                            2) DeRozan's defensive rating comes has always come with an asterisk for me. When have you ever seen DeRozan guard the other team's best perimeter player? Whenever DD is on the court AA, LF, TR, or RG will all guard the better perimeter defender. I could be wrong his but that is my perception and recollection.

                            3) You had a nice array of stats but one left out is win shares.

                            Wins per 48:
                            Fields: .154
                            DeRozan: .054
                            Ross: -0.001

                            Points over Par per48:
                            Fields: 1.7
                            DeRozan: -1.4
                            Ross: -3.1

                            Wins*:
                            Fields: 3.3
                            DeRozan: 3.4
                            Ross: -0.0

                            *Fields produced nearly identical wins in 1/3 the minutes.

                            4) The needs of Toronto. DeRozan brings scoring and little else. With Gay, an emerging JV, a starting PF who can give you 16 per game (using the assumption DD returns a PF), and Lowry allowed to play more like his Rocket days than his Raptor days, you have a lot of scoring. I question the redundancy of DD and Gay in the manner they have been used. Putting Gay in the post more and taking more threes certainly lessens the redundancy.

                            5) DD's ineffectiveness without the ball. If DD does not have the ball or is not being spoon fed for a long jumper, what does he do for you? A guy like Fields can be extremely active and productive without the basketball.

                            6) Ross was a rookie. I expect a step up from him. I also think more punch and kick or inside/out with an extra pass is his style than curling off screens for 3 point shots. My recollection has him much more effective catching and shooting with his feet already set. On defense, as a rookie he is already better than DD and given more opportunity and experience I only see the difference widening.

                            Again, nice post but I don't think it is as much of a slam dunk as you make it out to be.

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                            • #74
                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              It was a really good post.

                              I would counter with a few points:

                              1) Fields has shown an ability to hit the three. He had an undiagnosed nerve injury that turned his hand in to a claw. He made strides by the end of the season but obviously his shot was still shaky at best. After dealing with an injury for likely over a year, coming back in season and expecting him to return to his previous ways in 3-4 months is a bit unrealistic. I have faith that continuing rehab with an off season of getting his form correct will lead to improved results. If Ed Davis could fix his free throws, Fields can return to form on shot. And even if he can't get back to 38-39%, I think a return to low 30's is certainly possible.

                              2) DeRozan's defensive rating comes has always come with an asterisk for me. When have you ever seen DeRozan guard the other team's best perimeter player? Whenever DD is on the court AA, LF, TR, or RG will all guard the better perimeter defender. I could be wrong his but that is my perception and recollection.

                              3) You had a nice array of stats but one left out is win shares.

                              Wins per 48:
                              Fields: .154
                              DeRozan: .054
                              Ross: -0.001

                              Points over Par per48:
                              Fields: 1.7
                              DeRozan: -1.4
                              Ross: -3.1

                              Wins*:
                              Fields: 3.3
                              DeRozan: 3.4
                              Ross: -0.0

                              *Fields produced nearly identical wins in 1/3 the minutes.

                              4) The needs of Toronto. DeRozan brings scoring and little else. With Gay, an emerging JV, a starting PF who can give you 16 per game (using the assumption DD returns a PF), and Lowry allowed to play more like his Rocket days than his Raptor days, you have a lot of scoring. I question the redundancy of DD and Gay in the manner they have been used. Putting Gay in the post more and taking more threes certainly lessens the redundancy.

                              5) DD's ineffectiveness without the ball. If DD does not have the ball or is not being spoon fed for a long jumper, what does he do for you? A guy like Fields can be extremely active and productive without the basketball.

                              6) Ross was a rookie. I expect a step up from him. I also think more punch and kick or inside/out with an extra pass is his style than curling off screens for 3 point shots. My recollection has him much more effective catching and shooting with his feet already set. On defense, as a rookie he is already better than DD and given more opportunity and experience I only see the difference widening.

                              Again, nice post but I don't think it is as much of a slam dunk as you make it out to be.
                              Nice counters, this is the kind of discussion I'm looking for. I'll address your points one by one.

                              1.) I'd put a lot more faith in DD getting his 3pt shots above 30% than Fields being able to do so. DD has improved his 3pt shooting year over year (past 3 years .096, .261, .283). Fields has done the opposite (past 3 years .393, .256, .143). I hear you on the nerve damage thing and I'd be ecstatic if he could get his 3pt% back to respectable, but the fact is he has regressed significantly year over year while DD has improved, and is currently a much better 3pt shooter. Way too many "if's" come along with fields. "If" Fields is still as bad a 3pt shooter as he was this year, then Raptors fans will be calling for the head of the GM who traded away DD to start Fields. I'm way way more comfortable with DD in there. You can't have a SG who other teams don't need to guard, it kills the offense.

                              2.) I'm fine with the asterisks, as my main point isn't that DD is a good defender, it's that Fields and Ross aren't better defenders than DD. They'd need to be significantly better defenders than DD to offset how much significantly worse on offense they are.

                              3.) You don't have the correct stats in there for WS/48 (win shares per 48). From basketball reference.
                              WS/48:
                              DD .075
                              LF .052
                              TR .034

                              DD, although producing a pretty bad WS/48, is still significantly better than both Fields and Ross. Fields has never had a WS/48 of better than 0.1 (his first year with Knicks), and its has gone down every year, whereas DD made a pretty big improvement from 2 years ago to last year.

                              Also, you have the incorrect win shares. Again from basketball reference.

                              WS:
                              DD 4.7
                              LF 1.1
                              TR 0.9

                              Once again, DD comes in with a huge advantage in WS over Fields/Ross. Not sure where you got your stats, or if you meant something other than win shares, but this is the data from basketball reference (best stat site in my opinion).

                              4.) You think DD is redundant in the current offense, but you don't say how Fields or Ross are a better fit, you just poo poo on DD. You need to explain how the replacement of Fields/Ross is better. In my opinion, Fields can't shoot his way out of a paper bag and Ross needs another year or two of development. Right now DD is a much better fit because his man can't slack off him or he will be punished. You can leave Fields wide open anywhere except under the basket and pretty much be fine. On a hot night, DD can demand double teams. Fields has probably only ever commanded a double team in one of his dreams, he'll never be that player.

                              5.) I think Raps fans have created this illusion that Fields moves fantastically without the ball because we couldn't think of any other positive things to describe his play. He probably moves a bit better than DD, but it hardly produces anything, especially since he can't hit any shots unless he's right under the basket. Fields is most effective cutting under the basket looking for layups. DD can do so much more than Fields he doesn't need to just run cuts under the basket all the time like Fields does. We also feel comfortable giving DD the ball near the 3pt line and let him drive or pull up for a jumper. Fields can't do either of those things effectively.

                              6.) I also expect a big step up from Ross. I expect him to step into the backup SG role that Fields/AA were manning last year. He's clearly not ready to start, but he should be getting around 25 minutes a game if he progresses as expected. I'm not seeing his defense being much better than DD's. He runs around like a freaking loose cannon out there getting stupid fouls. He certainly has the potential to be a better defender than DD, but lets wait until we see it before we trade DD for a PF than we don't really need.

                              I think it's still a slam dunk, but I'm open to some more counters.

                              Follow up question, explain to me how Millsap is such an upgrade over Amir that it's worth trading DD for? I'm assuming that's who you're targeting as the PF to trade DD for. In my opinion, we'd get a bit more offense from Millsap at the expense of defense and rebounding. It would just force Amir to play a bunch more center in order to get minutes, where he is undersized and tends to get into foul trouble.
                              Last edited by Primer; Thu May 16, 2013, 06:27 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                [QUOTE=Primer;208195]I think it's still a slam dunk, but I'm open to some more counters./QUOTE]

                                I guess if we're going to use basketball-reference, it probably makes sense to include all the stats you left out (Conveniently? Not that I blame you, since he's at the bottom for nearly all of them.) in the first post.

                                eFG%
                                TR: 0.478
                                LF: 0.462
                                DD: 0.459

                                ORB%
                                LF: 6.7
                                TR: 3.3
                                DD: 1.9

                                DRB%
                                LF: 17.4
                                DD: 10.9
                                TR: 10.6

                                STL%
                                TR: 1.8
                                LF: 1.6
                                DD: 1.3

                                BLK%
                                TR: 0.9
                                LF: 0.6
                                DD: 0.6

                                Primer wrote: View Post
                                Follow up question, explain to me how Millsap is such an upgrade over Amir that it's worth trading DD for? I'm assuming that's who you're targeting as the PF to trade DD for. In my opinion, we'd get a bit more offense from Millsap at the expense of defense and rebounding. It would just force Amir to play a bunch more center in order to get minutes, where he is undersized and tends to get into foul trouble.
                                Is this a serious question? Are you actually comparing one season of Amir Johnson (out of 8 to choose from) with 7 seasons of Paul Millsap? I assume this is a joke, but this is 38 starts compared to 265. I think Amir had a wonderful season where there was literally no one else besides a rookie taking rebounds from him. Comparing that with Millsap who has played alongside Al Jefferson for the past 3 years and Carlos Boozer before that. You've got to be kidding.
                                Last edited by ebrian; Thu May 16, 2013, 07:37 PM.
                                your pal,
                                ebrian

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