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  • #16
    Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    We were looking elite ... then we went 5-5 over the last 10 games ... know who else has? The HEAT. Don't panic
    Jonas sick, Amir banged up, Hansbrough out, we just haven't had the presence in the paint either fighting for offensive boards, or protecting the rim.
    To the point of the thread, yeh middling, maybe moves to come ... but if you were over the moon 5 games ago, chill.
    Except the Heat have 3 consecutive finals appearances to convince their fans not to panic.

    The Raptors, on the other hand, have......a backup mascot.

    Comment


    • #17
      Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
      I see this comment as being at the bottom of the roller coaster ride. Then all of a sudden, the team wins the next 5 of 6. Parker, Embiid and presumably Wiggins decides to go back to their respective colleges and then we find ourselves at the top of the ride before the Feb. trade deadline once again. Patience my friend. Patience.
      Or maybe, they continue to skim around .500 for the rest of the season, many prospects come out in the 2014 NBA Draft and Raps end up getting 7-11 seed. What will they have achieved if they lose in the first round and have nothing to show for it with either Lowry moving on at the end of the season or paying him enough that you are capped out for the forseeable future.

      Even if this team wins 5 out of their next 6 (which I don't see happening based on their schedule) where or what does that make them? A slightly over .500 team? Is that the top of the roller coaster ride? If this was a good team would it even be a roller coaster ride or would you just see and expect good consistent play from a good consistent team?

      I'm praying Masai ends this experiment and stop putting the team in a position that he said he was not going to be in at the start of the season. This is the middle of the road.

      Comment


      • #18
        Nilanka wrote: View Post
        Except the Heat have 3 consecutive finals appearances to convince their fans not to panic.

        The Raptors, on the other hand, have......a backup mascot.
        The other issue is that Toronto is currently competing for playoff spots against teams that have been dealing with significant injuries throughout the season, while Toronto has remained healthy (starters haven't missed a single game).

        Chicago - injured Rose, traded Deng
        Brooklyn - injured Williams, injured Lopez
        Atlanta - injured Horford
        NY - injured Chandler, injured MWP, injured Felton
        Washington - injured Beal
        Charlotte - injured Jefferson, injured Walker, injured MKG
        Milwaukee - injured Ilyasova, injured Sanders, injured Knight, injured Henson


        A healthy Toronto team needs the entire rotation playing at peak performance levels in order to compete for the playoffs, against teams that are riddled with injuries. There's legitimate reason to at least wonder whether their success (ie: #3-6 seed) this season is sustainable or not.

        I don't envy the position MU is in, but trust he will stick to his plan of continuous improvement for the future.

        Comment


        • #19
          S.R. wrote: View Post
          Ujiri's not done at all. This is crazy. He wasn't done when the team was streaking along winning 7 out of 10 games, and he's not done now that they've lost a couple. The process of building a contender out of a young team with 0 all-stars is going to take multiple seasons. Multiple.

          Hold onto your shorts already.
          Seriously, it's becoming like RealGM around here.

          Simply fixing the mess Colangelo left is a 2-3 year project, at best. I have said that for years before BC was fired and I still believe that. I also still believe that the 2015-16 season is the target year this club is looking at.

          Comment


          • #20
            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
            I don't envy the position MU is in, but trust he will stick to his plan of continuous improvement for the future.
            Masai hasn't earned that trust with me yet. The unloading of Bargnani and Gay were nice, but I'm still in a wait-and-see approach (much like Masai's approach with the Raptors) before putting my faith in his hands.

            I feel like he's already dropped the ball by not trading Lowry 6 weeks ago.

            Comment


            • #21
              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
              The other issue is that Toronto is currently competing for playoff spots against teams that have been dealing with significant injuries throughout the season, while Toronto has remained healthy (starters haven't missed a single game).

              Chicago - injured Rose, traded Deng
              Brooklyn - injured Williams, injured Lopez
              Atlanta - injured Horford
              NY - injured Chandler, injured MWP, injured Felton
              Washington - injured Beal
              Charlotte - injured Jefferson, injured Walker, injured MKG
              Milwaukee - injured Ilyasova, injured Sanders, injured Knight, injured Henson



              A healthy Toronto team needs the entire rotation playing at peak performance levels in order to compete for the playoffs, against teams that are riddled with injuries. There's legitimate reason to at least wonder whether their success (ie: #3-6 seed) this season is sustainable or not.

              I don't envy the position MU is in, but trust he will stick to his plan of continuous improvement for the future.
              With all due respect to this point, it makes sense but doesn't have a lot of legs, and I find it to be a very Toronto mentality i.e. that even when we're good, it's because everyone else is actually bad so we are just rising to the top.

              With the exception of Chicago and maybe Atlanta, we have no reason to think that any of these teams would ACTUALLY be better if they were healthy. I can come up with a bunch of reasons why these teams are actually bad, Watch:

              Chicago - lack scoring, boozer is getting old and jimmy butler is unproven as a starting 3
              Brooklyn - lopez has been injured most of his career, D-will has been on the decline for a while, rookie head coach in Jason Kidd who is in over his head
              Atlanta - young and inexperienced guards, and mostly score in transition. not built for winning close defensive games
              NY - lack depth, discipline, and have an offensive focused game which does poorly against defensive minded teams especially on the road (plus they have bargnani)
              Washington - lack any veteran leadership, and don't defend consistently
              Charlotte -they struggle offensively and don't have an identity on the offensive end
              Milwaukee - seriously? , ok their core is either too young, or too untalented.

              My point is, I'm not saying that we don't have to play well but this idea that we have to play at "peak performance" in order to stay ahead of milwaukee the next few years is just incorrect.

              What we should think as fans is:

              The East is actually up for grabs. The Heat are coming to the end of their road. D-rose will never be the same. and there is no reason to think that this group, with some added depth, cannot continue to improve and stay ahead of these teams, who have actually regressed

              The Seattle Seahawks, before the season started looked at each other in the locker room and said "why not us?"

              We need to start thinking the same thing

              Comment


              • #22
                "Why not us?"

                "Well we just lost to the Lakers, Celtics and Bobcats soooo..."

                "Fair point, maybe next year"
                @sweatpantsjer

                Comment


                • #23
                  BallaBalla wrote: View Post
                  With all due respect to this point, it makes sense but doesn't have a lot of legs, and I find it to be a very Toronto mentality i.e. that even when we're good, it's because everyone else is actually bad so we are just rising to the top.

                  With the exception of Chicago and maybe Atlanta, we have no reason to think that any of these teams would ACTUALLY be better if they were healthy. I can come up with a bunch of reasons why these teams are actually bad, Watch:

                  Chicago - lack scoring, boozer is getting old and jimmy butler is unproven as a starting 3
                  Brooklyn - lopez has been injured most of his career, D-will has been on the decline for a while, rookie head coach in Jason Kidd who is in over his head
                  Atlanta - young and inexperienced guards, and mostly score in transition. not built for winning close defensive games
                  NY - lack depth, discipline, and have an offensive focused game which does poorly against defensive minded teams especially on the road (plus they have bargnani)
                  Washington - lack any veteran leadership, and don't defend consistently
                  Charlotte -they struggle offensively and don't have an identity on the offensive end
                  Milwaukee - seriously? , ok their core is either too young, or too untalented.

                  My point is, I'm not saying that we don't have to play well but this idea that we have to play at "peak performance" in order to stay ahead of milwaukee the next few years is just incorrect.

                  What we should think as fans is:

                  The East is actually up for grabs. The Heat are coming to the end of their road. D-rose will never be the same. and there is no reason to think that this group, with some added depth, cannot continue to improve and stay ahead of these teams, who have actually regressed

                  The Seattle Seahawks, before the season started looked at each other in the locker room and said "why not us?"

                  We need to start thinking the same thing
                  I wasn't saying the Raptors had plateaued, but I don't believe for a second that this roster is a sustainable #3/4 seed in the EC going forward.

                  They are currently in a 3-way tie for 4th place in the EC. They are the only team that hasn't had a starter miss significant time due to injury, and they are depending on 2 players (Lowry & DeRozan) playing at all-star levels, 2 sophomore players taking big steps forward (JV & Ross - the one sustainable factor) and 2 bigs (Amir & PP) playing at career high levels, in order to win.

                  Whether you look at how they are winning or what the rest of the EC looks like (without even factoring in the number of young up-and-coming teams that will add a high draft pick to their rosters next season), I'm not sure how you can't at least be a little wary that their success may not be sustainable.

                  Re-signing Lowry and other important rotation players (ie: PP, TH & GV) would result in the team once again being capped-out. That leaves organic growth (Valanciunas & Ross) and the addition of a late mid-1st round pick as the only options for improving the team, aside from some degree of retooling. I'm not sure how much higher this roster's ceiling can get, realistically speaking.


                  As for the point about the Seahawks, many NFL experts picked them in the preseason to be the NFC's representative in the Superbowl, including ESPN. Not exactly the same as the Raptors.
                  Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Jan 21, 2014, 12:43 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    BallaBalla wrote: View Post
                    With all due respect to this point, it makes sense but doesn't have a lot of legs, and I find it to be a very Toronto mentality i.e. that even when we're good, it's because everyone else is actually bad so we are just rising to the top.
                    This opinion does have some merit though, doesn't it? We're 20-20, and in any other year, a .500 record would have gotten you the..

                    8th seed in 2013.
                    9th seed in 2012.
                    7th seed in 2011.
                    Tied for 8th seed in 2010.
                    7th seed in 2009.

                    I don't think you can get too caught up in the team's current standing (home court in the playoffs!), and ignore some of the context that has allowed it to happen (crippling injuries all over the conference with the Raptors enjoying the best stretch of health in virtually the entire league; unprecedented amount of teams employing full-season tank jobs). In pretty much any other season we'd be exactly in the spots that we're supposedly trying to avoid.
                    Last edited by Fully; Tue Jan 21, 2014, 01:04 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Fully wrote: View Post
                      This opinion does have some merit though, doesn't it? We're 20-20, and in any other year, a .500 record would have gotten you the..

                      8th seed in 2013.
                      9th seed in 2012.
                      7th seed in 2011.
                      Tied for 8th seed in 2010.
                      7th seed in 2009.

                      I don't think you can get too caught up in the team's current standing (home court in the playoffs!), and ignore some of the context that has allowed it to happen (crippling injuries all over the conference with the Raptors enjoying the best stretch of health in virtually the entire league; unprecedented amount of teams employing full-season tank jobs). In pretty much any other season we'd be exactly in the spots that we're supposedly trying to avoid.
                      Thanks for providing that context.

                      I also would bet that MU is evaluating the Raptors against the entire league, not only the EC. Given the strength of the WC, especially relative to the EC in recent years, a .500 record would leave the team firmly entrenched in "no man's land"; first round EC playoff fodder or #12-14 draft pick at best.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        BallaBalla wrote: View Post
                        With all due respect to this point, it makes sense but doesn't have a lot of legs, and I find it to be a very Toronto mentality i.e. that even when we're good, it's because everyone else is actually bad so we are just rising to the top.

                        With the exception of Chicago and maybe Atlanta, we have no reason to think that any of these teams would ACTUALLY be better if they were healthy. I can come up with a bunch of reasons why these teams are actually bad, Watch:

                        Chicago - lack scoring, boozer is getting old and jimmy butler is unproven as a starting 3
                        Brooklyn - lopez has been injured most of his career, D-will has been on the decline for a while, rookie head coach in Jason Kidd who is in over his head
                        Atlanta - young and inexperienced guards, and mostly score in transition. not built for winning close defensive games
                        NY - lack depth, discipline, and have an offensive focused game which does poorly against defensive minded teams especially on the road (plus they have bargnani)
                        Washington - lack any veteran leadership, and don't defend consistently
                        Charlotte -they struggle offensively and don't have an identity on the offensive end
                        Milwaukee - seriously? , ok their core is either too young, or too untalented.

                        My point is, I'm not saying that we don't have to play well but this idea that we have to play at "peak performance" in order to stay ahead of milwaukee the next few years is just incorrect.

                        What we should think as fans is:

                        The East is actually up for grabs. The Heat are coming to the end of their road. D-rose will never be the same. and there is no reason to think that this group, with some added depth, cannot continue to improve and stay ahead of these teams, who have actually regressed

                        The Seattle Seahawks, before the season started looked at each other in the locker room and said "why not us?"

                        We need to start thinking the same thing
                        We have no reason to think that Knicks would be better with Tyson healthy all year, Nets with Brook/DWill/AK, maybe even Atlanta with Horford? That makes no sense.
                        Last edited by BobLoblaw; Tue Jan 21, 2014, 01:24 PM. Reason: didn't notice the Bulls part

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                          Thanks for providing that context.

                          I also would bet that MU is evaluating the Raptors against the entire league, not only the EC. Given the strength of the WC, especially relative to the EC in recent years, a .500 record would leave the team firmly entrenched in "no man's land"; first round EC playoff fodder or #12-14 draft pick at best.
                          This. Also adding to Fully's point as well: In a regular year with some of those stars on their rosters (Brooklyn, Chicago) would the Raps even be at .500? Some of those wins turn to losses I would bet.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                            I wasn't saying the Raptors had plateaued, but I don't believe for a second that this roster is a sustainable #3/4 seed in the EC going forward.

                            They are currently in a 3-way tie for 4th place in the EC. They are the only team that hasn't had a starter miss significant time due to injury, and they are depending on 2 players (Lowry & DeRozan) playing at all-star levels, 2 sophomore players taking big steps forward (JV & Ross - the one sustainable factor) and 2 bigs (Amir & PP) playing at career high levels, in order to win.

                            Whether you look at how they are winning or what the rest of the EC looks like (without even factoring in the number of young up-and-coming teams that will add a high draft pick to their rosters next season), I'm not sure how you can't at least be a little wary that their success may not be sustainable.

                            Re-signing Lowry and other important rotation players (ie: PP, TH & GV) would result in the team once again being capped-out. That leaves organic growth (Valanciunas & Ross) and the addition of a late mid-1st round pick as the only options for improving the team, aside from some degree of retooling. I'm not sure how much higher this roster's ceiling can get, realistically speaking.


                            As for the point about the Seahawks, many NFL experts picked them in the preseason to be the NFC's representative in the Superbowl, including ESPN. Not exactly the same as the Raptors.
                            Ok.... so we are basically in agreement then. I am definitely not 100% confident, but my point is I see just as many reasons why we CAN sustain this as much as we CAN'T

                            and your seashawks thing was a cheapshot haha obviously i was just talking about the mentality and not making a comparison

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                              Thanks for providing that context.

                              I also would bet that MU is evaluating the Raptors against the entire league, not only the EC. Given the strength of the WC, especially relative to the EC in recent years, a .500 record would leave the team firmly entrenched in "no man's land"; first round EC playoff fodder or #12-14 draft pick at best.
                              Hold on a sec, CalRaps and others. I think everybody is severely twisting this notion of finishing .500 this season as being the same as being stuck there forever. And conversely, finishing bottom 5 & drafting top 5 as the start of a consistently upward climb and staying there for a decade.

                              Do people really think MU is going to sit on his butt for the next 5 years and make no changes to the roster. Do they also think that he has no flexibility to make changes? Now, obviously that's ludicrous (... no ludacris, btw). In fact, just since the Gay trade, we have acquired or significantly increased the value of at least 4 tradeable assets: DD, Lowry, Ross and 2Pat. While at the same time, increasing salary flexibility. The key decision here remains Lowry - he cannot overpay him, or he will be an overpriced asset which diminishes his trade value, that only goes down as he ages.

                              MU is getting paid $5M/year to improve the roster, by all means necessary. If MU is as good as advertised then he should be one of the GMs who steals those top 5 draft talent who inevitably drops every year to the late 1st round or even 2nd round. Supposedly, this draft is deep, so it should be even easier to steal one of those guys. Lots of experts even suggesting that both Wiggins and Parker might stay another year. Wiggins, in particular, just does not look ready to compete at the NBA level. I actually hope Wiggins does stay another year and work on his game.
                              Last edited by golden; Tue Jan 21, 2014, 01:51 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                Masai hasn't earned that trust with me yet. The unloading of Bargnani and Gay were nice, but I'm still in a wait-and-see approach (much like Masai's approach with the Raptors) before putting my faith in his hands.

                                I feel like he's already dropped the ball by not trading Lowry 6 weeks ago.
                                I was thinking along the same lines when Lowry started picking up his game and it became obvious that he was the catalyst behind the teams improvemnt. I even had this thought that if BC were here Lowry would have been locked up for 4 years before the season even started, at a better price than what we would have to pay to keep him now. However, I think MU has to gamble and wait until Lowry becomes a free agent now or else over pay him.

                                Lowry might not be able to keep up this level of play which would drive down his asking price, Lowry might not receive as many offers as you would think considering most teams already have quality starting PG's in place. Would the ones that don't have one in a place like Orlando for example, rather draft a PG and develop him as opposed to signing Lowry to big bucks and not have a competetive roster around him?

                                Lots of factors that could push Lowry's asking price down, so perhaps it's worth the gamble for MU to wait as opposed to paying him now for what would assuredly be big bucks now.

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