Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Grange Advocating Tanking/Raptors not rushing rebuild

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong but this view is on a season by season basis. What if we stretch our view over a 2-3 season period? Would we not be tanking 2012-13 season by throwing money at a free agency class that has been universally deemed to be weaker than usual? Would we not be tanking 2012-13 and beyond by not giving our young players an opportunity to prove themselves (successful or not) for older players with a limited 'shelf-life' remaining?

    Usually successful rebuilds take 3-5 seasons. The Raptors just finished year 1. My opinion is people need to ask themselves what type of team they want to cheer for: one that wins 40 games and is bounced in the first round or one that can contend for a Eastern Conference Championships/League Championships. If the former is the goal, then I can see going out and spending available cap space to overpay peaked/established veterans to come to Toronto. If the latter is the goal, then there will likely be 1-2 more seasons of frustration ahead.

    Personally I'd rather keep working to reach the top than settle for a continued stay on the mediocrity treadmill never going anywhere. But that is just me.
    I think i kinda went around too much in my post. What i was trying to say was although i dont like "not doing all that it takes to win NOW", im in favor of it to actually win in the long run.

    In the statement you bolded, i was trying to imply that "not doing everything in your power to improve the team" and "tanking" is pretty much the same in my book. but to lose now, is to win in the long run.

    Comment


    • #32
      Brandon wrote: View Post
      You keep tanking until you get a player that you can build a franchise around. Tanking, in my view, means not spending money on fungible or complementary players (like most of the Raps current roster), keeping the payroll down and the roster young. If you don't have a franchise player who's a top 10 or 15 guy in the league, you don't really have anything.
      So in other words, the Raptors have yet to start the rebuilding process as they don't have anyone on their roster who is a top 10 or 15 guy in the league.

      How long can you sell this strategy to paying consumers and sponsors? Corporate sponsors play with the cards they are dealt and accept you do not have to wait until all the stars are in perfect alignment before you can deliver a good product.

      I am so certain many, many corporate sponsors would love the "We'll suck until we are in position to draft a franchise player from the Raptors" sales pitch. That's just the kind of product they want to associate their brand with.

      Comment


      • #33
        tanking is a dirty word to every competitive spirit.... except ofcourse to the competitive spirits who are also strategists.

        Tanking IS intentionally losing. But does intentionally losing include not trying your hardest to win or is it actively trying to 'throw' games? What if not trying your hardest to win, or intentionally losing, in the short term leads to winning in the long term?

        Kind of like killing one person in order to save 10....just a lot less messy.

        When teams don't waste opportunities when they come around, they don't have to worry about these things. The teams that screw up need to worry about it time and time again. Then again, all those teams probably did it atleast once (*cough San Antonio cough*) to get to where they were....

        Play the players who will help the team long term, go out and play games hard while trying to win on any given night (atleast until the end of the season). If that leads to wins then so be it. There is definetely something positive that comes from that. But don't try to 'just make the playoffs', atleast not until one feels the team can compete in the playoffs. No sense wasting another decade. Long term planning is the key to long term success.

        Comment


        • #34
          GarbageTime wrote: View Post
          tanking is a dirty word to every competitive spirit.... except ofcourse to the competitive spirits who are also strategists.

          Tanking IS intentionally losing. But does intentionally losing include not trying your hardest to win or is it actively trying to 'throw' games? What if not trying your hardest to win, or intentionally losing, in the short term leads to winning in the long term?

          Kind of like killing one person in order to save 10....just a lot less messy.

          When teams don't waste opportunities when they come around, they don't have to worry about these things. The teams that screw up need to worry about it time and time again. Then again, all those teams probably did it atleast once (*cough San Antonio cough*) to get to where they were....

          Play the players who will help the team long term, go out and play games hard while trying to win on any given night (atleast until the end of the season). If that leads to wins then so be it. There is definetely something positive that comes from that. But don't try to 'just make the playoffs', atleast not until one feels the team can compete in the playoffs. No sense wasting another decade. Long term planning is the key to long term success.
          Maybe a different way of looking at things that sums up the Raptors current state of affairs:

          The front office can tank with an eye to the future and doing what is necessary to build a contender.

          The coaches and players should never tank and never give less than 100% to win every single game possible.

          Comment


          • #35
            Hugmenot wrote: View Post
            So in other words, the Raptors have yet to start the rebuilding process as they don't have anyone on their roster who is a top 10 or 15 guy in the league.

            How long can you sell this strategy to paying consumers and sponsors? Corporate sponsors play with the cards they are dealt and accept you do not have to wait until all the stars are in perfect alignment before you can deliver a good product.

            I am so certain many, many corporate sponsors would love the "We'll suck until we are in position to draft a franchise player from the Raptors" sales pitch. That's just the kind of product they want to associate their brand with.
            Just wondering, seems like everybody is leaning towards getting a potential franchise player in the 2012 draft. Wouldnt it make more sense to actually acquire a proven one through FA? Rose, Howard, E. Gordon will be FAs in 2012, shouldnt BC throw everything in his power to land one of these guys? Historically the Raps have been unable to land a superstar FA, but should that really deter them from attempting to land one? The odds maybe slim but shouldnt this be more of a priority rather than waiting on the draft?

            Comment


            • #36
              tbihis wrote: View Post
              Just wondering, seems like everybody is leaning towards getting a potential franchise player in the 2012 draft. Wouldnt it make more sense to actually acquire a proven one through FA? Rose, Howard, E. Gordon will be FAs in 2012, shouldnt BC throw everything in his power to land one of these guys? Historically the Raps have been unable to land a superstar FA, but should that really deter them from attempting to land one? The odds maybe slim but shouldnt this be more of a priority rather than waiting on the draft?
              Absolutely. BC has talked about the financial flexibility next summer. A top draft pick this year to go with the guys already on the roster, JV, and another quality veteran free agent or two would be a great selling point to any perspective free agent.

              Comment


              • #37
                Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                That's not what we are saying. We are saying to try to win to what you have already.

                I would certainly not trade a Raptors propspect for a veteran just to increase our win totals this year.
                No one is suggesting INTENTIONALLY losing games. I just don't believe we should add anyone who will make any kind of an impact in the win column. Focus on development of players. Sometimes that means not playing the veterans in crunch time, which would be the norm if you cared more about winning.

                Look at when Brendan Malone was coaching. While he actually did a fantastic job of getting the most out of very little talent, he cared more about winning than developing players. Of course, with most coaches being judged on their win/loss record, that's not surprising.

                Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                A team is a business and the image you project to your paying customers and sponsors matter. trying to sell the "We Suck Deliberately" image to commercial sponsors is more than, say, "We're a hard working yong team on the rise". Although some fans adopt a Winning the Championship is the Only Thing that Matters attitude, it is by no way representative of the position adopted by the owners of the Raptors.

                Trying to trade up in 2012? If the the top 3, 4, or 5 have so much more potential than anyone else in the draft, what do you propose the Raptors send to a rebuilding team in order to pick at a higher slot? DD, ED, JV? So we delay the rebuilding process further by trading a work in progress and a pick for someone with a potentially higher ceiling.

                Making a splash in the 2012 free agent market? Which superstar would want to come to a perenial losing team which tanks on purpose. Seriously, we already seen that players will chose a destination of their liking if they receive comparable offers from multiple teams. The Raptors have absolutely no history of making a splash in the free agency market and two seasons spent at the bottom of the league is very unlikley to trigger a change how superstars view Toronto.
                Again, you're getting caught up on the the whole "tanking" thing. I'm not suggesting trading away the good players for nothing, as Matt mentioned. And I"m not suggesting losing on purpose. But there's a big difference between trying to squeeze out every single win you can than trying to focus more on development of players.

                Are you going to play Alabi 20 mpg, like I'd like to see, if you're trying to win every game? If you're trying to win every game, you're not going to let players play through their mistakes.

                I don't know what would be involved in trading up. That's why I listed it as an option. I wouldn't trade Valanciunas (because he's such an unknown), but if it means drafting a franchise player over a borderline All-Star, I'd pretty much consider everyone else.

                Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                I have cheered for the Leafs for the past fourty five years and I expect they will be my favorite NHL team until my lasst breadth despite me having no expectation they will win a cup before I die.

                I've attended almost all their games in Washington for the past 20 years (I've also attended the Raptors games the past two years) and a few Friday and Saturday games in Philadelphia. Despite their less than stellar record, I am happy when they put forth the effort because it is good entertainment. Entertainment, because when I pay hundred bucks or more to attend a game, I expect to be entertained.
                You're apparently happy with mediocrity. I'm not. I'd like to see a Raptor team actually contend for once. If I had a GM who said he just wanted to put a competitive team on the floor and that's it, he'd be gone quicker than you can say Rob Babcock.

                Because I want the Raptors to win it all, I'm willing to sacrifice a little to do that.
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                Follow me on Twitter.

                Comment


                • #38
                  tbihis wrote: View Post
                  Just wondering, seems like everybody is leaning towards getting a potential franchise player in the 2012 draft. Wouldnt it make more sense to actually acquire a proven one through FA? Rose, Howard, E. Gordon will be FAs in 2012, shouldnt BC throw everything in his power to land one of these guys? Historically the Raps have been unable to land a superstar FA, but should that really deter them from attempting to land one? The odds maybe slim but shouldnt this be more of a priority rather than waiting on the draft?
                  If the Raptors can get a franchise player on the free agent market, great! The chance of that happening, though, is slim, so I wouldn't bank on it. The easiest way for a team not in L.A., Miami, New York, Boston or Chicago, to get a franchise player is to draft him. No harm in trying, though.
                  Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                  Follow me on Twitter.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    tbihis wrote: View Post
                    Just wondering, seems like everybody is leaning towards getting a potential franchise player in the 2012 draft. Wouldnt it make more sense to actually acquire a proven one through FA? Rose, Howard, E. Gordon will be FAs in 2012, shouldnt BC throw everything in his power to land one of these guys? Historically the Raps have been unable to land a superstar FA, but should that really deter them from attempting to land one? The odds maybe slim but shouldnt this be more of a priority rather than waiting on the draft?
                    If the Raps had any shot in hell at landing a legitimate franchise-changing player then I'd say maybe. But it ain't gonna happen.

                    Rose isn't going to leave a contender in his hometown for Toronto. Makes zero sense.

                    Howard has already stated he'd prefer to go to LA. Whether the Clips or Lakers, that's gonna happen.

                    Chris Paul is one of the league's ultimate competitors and wants to win immediately. He won't be coming to Toronto.

                    Eric Gordon is likely going to be bait in whoever the Clips go after, but regardless why would he leave LA where he plays alongside Blake Griffin on an up-and-coming team?

                    Etc, etc, etc.

                    It's not that Toronto isn't a good free agent destination in terms of the city itself, I don't really believe that. It's just that NBA superstars have a lot of choice when deciding to change teams, and factors like a team's potential and existing players seem to be the biggest considerations right now. Then comes market, weather, all that other stuff (assuming teams are offering roughly the same amount of money).

                    Everything changes if the Raps land a Barnes or a Davis in this year's draft, but even then it'll take a couple of years for the team to establish itself and really begin to make the kind of impact that will make FAs consider the team as a destination. Until then, there's no more reason to choose Toronto as there is Charlotte or Minnesota or Sacramento or Cleveland.

                    To me the best chance they have to land a top-notch FA is going to be trying to sign away a restricted FA like Westbrook, whose team might not be able to match a max offer. Obviously there's no guarantee he'll even sign an offer sheet, but that might be the only hope in the short-term.

                    And as an aside, assuming the Raps do manage to land a franchise guy in the draft this year, I'd be just as happy to see BC use the cap space to sign vets and established players to short term deals. That'd give you some stability on the roster, vets for the young guys to learn from and practice with, and retain long-term flexibility for extending the players you want to keep.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      tbihis wrote: View Post
                      Just wondering, seems like everybody is leaning towards getting a potential franchise player in the 2012 draft. Wouldnt it make more sense to actually acquire a proven one through FA? Rose, Howard, E. Gordon will be FAs in 2012, shouldnt BC throw everything in his power to land one of these guys? Historically the Raps have been unable to land a superstar FA, but should that really deter them from attempting to land one? The odds maybe slim but shouldnt this be more of a priority rather than waiting on the draft?
                      In my opinion, the odds of the Raptors landing a franchise player in 2012 via the draft or free agency are too slim to be worth including in any sort of meaningful plan.

                      Furthermore, waiting just another year for a savior is not a message I would want to hear if I was a core player on the current roster. Such a message is not telling me (complimentary) help will be provided but rather, a savior will be found to save my sorry ass. Not what I call an inspiring message.

                      I would rather the Raptors plan ahead on how to progress further with the current core group.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        Maybe a different way of looking at things that sums up the Raptors current state of affairs:

                        The front office can tank with an eye to the future and doing what is necessary to build a contender.

                        The coaches and players should never tank and never give less than 100% to win every single game possible.
                        yep thats a much simplier explanation.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          You're apparently happy with mediocrity. I'm not. I'd like to see a Raptor team actually contend for once. If I had a GM who said he just wanted to put a competitive team on the floor and that's it, he'd be gone quicker than you can say Rob Babcock.
                          I have spent over $25,000 over the years attending Leafs games and I would have spent a lot more if I had lived in Toronto. I am happy with the level of entertainment value I received in exchange for my dollars.

                          I spent just a few hundreds of dollars attending Raptors games the past two years. Again, I am satisfied with the level of entertainment I received in exchange for my dollars.

                          Sports is entertainment. I am willing to pay for a good game just as much like I am willing to pay to go to a lesser opera house or a non-major theater production.

                          Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          Because I want the Raptors to win it all, I'm willing to sacrifice a little to do that.
                          What exactly is the sacrifice you are willing to make? Are you sure you are not simply asking a corporation to make a (financial) sacrifice so it can have a teeny weeny litlle extra chance, if the gods are willing, to win the championship in a few years?

                          Although I would like to think the Raptors will go for it if they are ever in position to win it all, I don't want them to adopt a let's suck strategy to get their savior.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                            If the Raps had any shot in hell at landing a legitimate franchise-changing player then I'd say maybe. But it ain't gonna happen.

                            Rose isn't going to leave a contender in his hometown for Toronto. Makes zero sense.

                            Howard has already stated he'd prefer to go to LA. Whether the Clips or Lakers, that's gonna happen.

                            Chris Paul is one of the league's ultimate competitors and wants to win immediately. He won't be coming to Toronto.

                            Eric Gordon is likely going to be bait in whoever the Clips go after, but regardless why would he leave LA where he plays alongside Blake Griffin on an up-and-coming team?

                            Etc, etc, etc.

                            It's not that Toronto isn't a good free agent destination in terms of the city itself, I don't really believe that. It's just that NBA superstars have a lot of choice when deciding to change teams, and factors like a team's potential and existing players seem to be the biggest considerations right now. Then comes market, weather, all that other stuff (assuming teams are offering roughly the same amount of money).

                            Everything changes if the Raps land a Barnes or a Davis in this year's draft, but even then it'll take a couple of years for the team to establish itself and really begin to make the kind of impact that will make FAs consider the team as a destination. Until then, there's no more reason to choose Toronto as there is Charlotte or Minnesota or Sacramento or Cleveland.

                            To me the best chance they have to land a top-notch FA is going to be trying to sign away a restricted FA like Westbrook, whose team might not be able to match a max offer. Obviously there's no guarantee he'll even sign an offer sheet, but that might be the only hope in the short-term.

                            And as an aside, assuming the Raps do manage to land a franchise guy in the draft this year, I'd be just as happy to see BC use the cap space to sign vets and established players to short term deals. That'd give you some stability on the roster, vets for the young guys to learn from and practice with, and retain long-term flexibility for extending the players you want to keep.
                            What if BC pulled a Pat Riley/Donnie Walsh tactic and convinced 2, not just one superstar to sign with the Raptors?? Do you guys think he'll be successful? I think it would be easier to convince 2 superstars to come here at the same time, rather than just one, and if you have the cap space to sign both at the max, then that would make things easier.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                              So in other words, the Raptors have yet to start the rebuilding process as they don't have anyone on their roster who is a top 10 or 15 guy in the league.

                              How long can you sell this strategy to paying consumers and sponsors? Corporate sponsors play with the cards they are dealt and accept you do not have to wait until all the stars are in perfect alignment before you can deliver a good product.

                              I am so certain many, many corporate sponsors would love the "We'll suck until we are in position to draft a franchise player from the Raptors" sales pitch. That's just the kind of product they want to associate their brand with.
                              I agree that the Raps franchise earns less than it should for MLSE at large. This is an extremely rich media market starved for successful teams. The Raps could be earning a lot more local money if the ball club was any good. But, I don't think the team does any worse than break-even with all of the many, many bad teams it has fielded over the years. So it can continue.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                                I have spent over $25,000 over the years attending Leafs games and I would have spent a lot more if I had lived in Toronto. I am happy with the level of entertainment value I received in exchange for my dollars.

                                I spent just a few hundreds of dollars attending Raptors games the past two years. Again, I am satisfied with the level of entertainment I received in exchange for my dollars.

                                Sports is entertainment. I am willing to pay for a good game just as much like I am willing to pay to go to a lesser opera house or a non-major theater production.
                                Congratulations, you have significantly more money than most of us. If you're willing to shell out money to watch bad teams then more power to you.

                                Keep in mind you're posting in a forum that's frequented mostly by die-hard fans to whom 'entertainment' is the team competing at a high level, not just putting on a show. We're sick to death of teams that can score but can't defend and don't win.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X