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Raps/Nets April 26th Turn out the lights...

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  • #76
    Puffer wrote: View Post
    Born Canadian, and more important I've been playing basketball for 45 years. For the love of the game. I've won and I've lost. Winning is better but the point is to try your best. This year my team went from last in the league to winning it all. Purely from effort, not talent. The idea of playing to lose is an abomination at any level and to encourage a professional organization to do so is worse.
    You won the fight Leo Rautins, raptors2012 is just the new forum shit disturber.

    Hes just a pissed Leafs fan.
    NBADoppelgangers.tumblr.com

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    • #77
      raptors2012 wrote: View Post
      Yes, OKC "11 years" wait was well worth it. Or better yet, scrap that plan, let's be like Miami or NY and sign 2.5~3 superstars. That's an great idea you bright cookie you.

      And tell me, in the last 30 years, how many teams won the championship that didn't draft a superstar? I beg you, tell me you brainiac. Detroit & ?
      Drafting a superstar does not require to get the #1 pick, just as getting the #1 pick does not guarantee the drafting of a superstar.

      And to answer your questions : the Lakers got Kobe at #13. The Mavs got Dirk at #9. This draft is deep as few of the past ones were. Tanking is not a necessity, especially if it comes at the expense of pride.

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      • #78
        e2thed wrote: View Post
        You won the fight Leo Rautins, raptors2012 is just the new forum shit disturber.

        Hes just a pissed Leafs fan.
        Leo wouldn't use the word abomination.

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        • #79
          Whether you agree with tanking or not, Colangelo was most definitely tanking this year. There are no ifs, ands, or buts, about it.

          You don't sign Butlers, Carters, Magloires, Uzohs, Dentmons, Andersons, etc. if your intentions are to win as many games as possible. And if you're not trying to win, you're tanking. Period.

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          • #80
            Nilanka wrote: View Post
            Whether you agree with tanking or not, Colangelo was most definitely tanking this year. There are no ifs, ands, or buts, about it.

            You don't sign Butlers, Carters, Magloires, Uzohs, Dentmons, Andersons, etc. if your intentions are to win as many games as possible. And if you're not trying to win, you're tanking. Period.
            +1

            Bryan was definitely tanking. He gave away Barbosa and made no moves to improve the team this year. That was his intent. And to 'rest' DeMar and A Johnson on the last game of the season has to be very obvious if all the signings were not. I wish they came up with that same strategy to rest their best players against Boston or Atlanta instead though. And I wonder who's idea it was to bring in Anderson. That guy killed the tank. He was the anti-Butler.

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            • #81
              e2thed wrote: View Post
              Honestly this game was all about home court, if the Raptors were at NJ they would be chucking up shots like they were all Rasual , and the Nets would have to win because it was their last game in NJ.
              Was thinking the same thing. You think Toronto wanted to end the season being booed off the court, out of the building, down the road to the airport, off the runway and out of the country by 18000 people? That's what would have happened if they had played like NJ. Don't get me wrong, I would not have been upset with a loss, but not one like that. To put crap talent on the floor, play your ass off and lose, that's one thing. But to make it look obvious and that you don't care when you are making that much money (even 10 day D-leaguers are making WAY more money than I do) is just insulting to the fans whom actually pay their hard earned money to watch you play.

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              • #82
                Fanchie wrote: View Post
                Drafting a superstar does not require to get the #1 pick, just as getting the #1 pick does not guarantee the drafting of a superstar.

                And to answer your questions : the Lakers got Kobe at #13. The Mavs got Dirk at #9. This draft is deep as few of the past ones were. Tanking is not a necessity, especially if it comes at the expense of pride.
                You're referencing a set of past conditions that no longer apply. Back when you could draft kids straight from high school, yes you might be able to snag a superstar later in the draft. In fact the last time that happened was the last year it was allowed, when Bynum was selected 11th in 2005. Since then, Greg Munroe is the closest thing to a franchise player selected in the lottery outside the top 5.

                The logic that drafting a franchise player requires a pick in the top 5 (and more realistically a top-3) is more true than ever now with the increased emphasis on scouting players in their first year of college. So yes, what you said is technically correct, but completely ignores how incredibly lucky you need to be in order to build a team with picks that are perennially in the 5-10 range. Because for every star you find in the lottery outside of the top 5, there are likely 8-9 players who don't fully live up to their potential. The mid to late lottery is a crapshoot in every sense of the word.

                Would have thought that after 3 years of DeRozan and 2 years of Ed Davis, the importance of a higher draft slot would be glaringly obvious.
                Last edited by Lark Benson; Fri Apr 27, 2012, 10:33 AM.

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                • #83
                  raptors2012 wrote: View Post
                  This is the type of retarded fan i'm talking about. This is why Toronto teams are lame-a$$. Satisfied with being mediocre. I'm a born and bred Torontonian that's sick of having loser teams. You're probably an immigrant that's just getting into the Toronto sports scene and don't play sports too well.
                  You're all for a team losing and you're calling Puffer, who basically took the words out of my mouth when I read your original post, retarded? The only retards are "fans" who cheer for their team to lose.

                  Apparently all of you tankers have it in your head that you can only build a winning team through the draft. Free agency and trades don't exist to you "fans". I guess you look at teams like OKC and Portland for guidance, but overlook teams like Sacramento, Washington, Charlotte, Minnesota, etc...teams who have been in the lottery the past few years and are still perennial losers.

                  Anyways, as Puffer said, you don't deserve this team.

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                  • #84
                    Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                    You're referencing a set of past conditions that no longer apply. Back when you could draft kids straight from high school, yes you might be able to snag a superstar later in the draft. In fact the last time that happened was the last year it was allowed, when Bynum was selected 11th in 2005. Since then, Greg Munroe is the closest thing to a franchise player selected in the lottery outside the top 5.

                    The logic that drafting a franchise player requires a pick in the top 5 (and more realistically a top-3) is more true than ever now with the increased emphasis on scouting players in their first year of college. So yes, what you said is technically correct, but completely ignores how incredibly lucky you need to be in order to build a team with picks that are perennially in the 5-10 range. Because for every star you find in the lottery outside of the top 5, there are likely 8-9 players who don't fully live up to their potential. The mid to late lottery is a crapshoot in every sense of the word.

                    Would have thought that after 3 years of DeRozan and 2 years of Ed Davis, the importance of a higher draft slot would be glaringly obvious.
                    If Monroe is what you call a superstar, then I'll just list the following (some are pre-2005, but they did not come straight from high school) :

                    Rondo
                    Ginobili
                    Parker
                    Pierce
                    Marc Gasol
                    Gay
                    Noah
                    Nene
                    Joe Johnson
                    Hibbert
                    Paul George

                    and I can go on. All these guys were drafted out of the Top 5 and I would be glad for our pick to bring us a guy like this.

                    Would I rather draft Anthony Davis or MKG ? Sure.

                    But if you look at the most promising teams on the rise right now (Pacers or Grizzlies), they were built around one or sometimes no Top 5 pick and a high level supporting cast. We have 2 top 5 picks with Bargs and JV. And this draft can bring us a fine young man, even around #7/8.

                    You never know what positive outcome tanking can bring you. But I can tell you the one negative thing you get : shame.

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                    • #85
                      Fanchie wrote: View Post
                      You never know what positive outcome tanking can bring you. But I can tell you the one negative thing you get : shame.
                      Just to play devil's advocate, does it really matter how we lose? Losing is shameful on it's own. Airballing free throws is shameful. Getting ejected from games is shameful. Giving up 20-0 runs is shameful. Blowing 18 point leads is shameful. If we add tanking to that list, does it really make any difference in the grand view of an awful season?

                      And will anyone care about the "shame" when we're winning in the future? I know I won't.

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                      • #86
                        Just saw the nets started Deshawn Stevenson at PF? Just wow.
                        @sweatpantsjer

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                        • #87
                          Fanchie wrote: View Post
                          If Monroe is what you call a superstar, then I'll just list the following (some are pre-2005, but they did not come straight from high school) :

                          Rondo
                          Ginobili
                          Parker
                          Pierce
                          Marc Gasol
                          Gay
                          Noah
                          Nene
                          Joe Johnson
                          Hibbert
                          Paul George

                          and I can go on. All these guys were drafted out of the Top 5 and I would be glad for our pick to bring us a guy like this.
                          First off, I said Greg Munroe was the closest thing to a franchise player, not that he's a superstar.

                          So you make a list of 11 guys that worked out. Want me to hit you back with the list of guys who didn't? Because that list is several hundred strong.

                          My point still stands; outside of the top 5 the success rate plummets dramatically. It's a crapshoot.

                          I would add that the Pacres and Grizzlies may have built successful teams, but they aren't teams that are, or will be, able to compete for a championship without a significant trade to exchange some of their depth for talent upgrades.

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                          • #88
                            Paul George is going to be a damn nice player.

                            But, the guy did say past five years and Ginobili is over that.As well as Johnson and Parker.
                            If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                            Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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                            • #89
                              Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                              First off, I said Greg Munroe was the closest thing to a franchise player, not that he's a superstar.

                              So you make a list of 11 guys that worked out. Want me to hit you back with the list of guys who didn't? Because that list is several hundred strong.

                              My point still stands; outside of the top 5 the success rate plummets dramatically. It's a crapshoot.

                              I would add that the Pacres and Grizzlies may have built successful teams, but they aren't teams that are, or will be, able to compete for a championship without a significant trade to exchange some of their depth for talent upgrades.
                              If your point is that you're more likely to draft a superstar with a top 5 pick, we all agree.

                              What i'm saying is that as sweet as it'd be to draft Anthony Davis, I'm not ready to see the Raps tank as hard as the Nets did to do so.

                              If you watched DC's press conference, pride, hard work and team culture are more likely to being success than tanking. Otherwise, teams like SA would not have been able to maintain that high a level year after year.

                              I want the Raps to become a team where players are happy to land because they know what the culture is and that it's all about winning. Not cross fingers every freaking lottery day.

                              What brings you to championship level is class act coaching cause it makes what you have better and what you don't more likely to join. And we have this. We should be focusing on this.

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                              • #90
                                Fanchie wrote: View Post
                                If your point is that you're more likely to draft a superstar with a top 5 pick, we all agree.

                                What i'm saying is that as sweet as it'd be to draft Anthony Davis, I'm not ready to see the Raps tank as hard as the Nets did to do so.

                                If you watched DC's press conference, pride, hard work and team culture are more likely to being success than tanking. Otherwise, teams like SA would not have been able to maintain that high a level year after year.

                                I want the Raps to become a team where players are happy to land because they know what the culture is and that it's all about winning. Not cross fingers every freaking lottery day.

                                What brings you to championship level is class act coaching cause it makes what you have better and what you don't more likely to join. And we have this. We should be focusing on this.
                                Knowing that a top-5 pick in the draft is perhaps the most significant way of improving a team, yet not rooting for what is the best opportunity of ensuring a top-5 pick, is what makes being a fan and contemplating 'tanking' such a conundrum.

                                Coaching is important. Culture change is important. In the NBA, especially, talent is king. Without talent, the rest is only effective if your team's goal is to be content competing for the 8th playoff spot year in and year out.

                                1) The best way to improve a team and significantly turnaround a franchise is by drafting a stud player, which is much more likely with a top-5 (or top 2/3) draft pick.

                                2) The best way to improve a team's culture and identity, is by winning. Winning begets winning. Winning improves team morale, which in term improves team chemistry.

                                3) Winning and improving team culture/identity, in addition to having respected management and coaching staffs, together is what will lure big time free agents. Also, having young superstar type players (aka: franchise cornerstones drafted in the top-5 of a draft) is another proven way of attracting free agents.

                                I am a fan of the Raptors and have been since it was announced that the city would get a franchise. I submitted name ideas for the franchise (and no, "Raptors" was most definitely one I submitted). I understand the game, the league and the business of professional sports. I will always be a Raptors fan, but I cringe at the argument that being a fan and supporting tanking is a black & white issue, because it is not. From the beginning of the season, I was rooting for the Raptors and quietly optimistic of sneaking into the playoffs in a weak Eastern conference. Once the wheels fell off and reality set in, I was able to switch gears and understand what was in the best long-term interests of this franchise, which I believe begins in drafting one of the top picks in this year's draft. I was never rooting for the Raptors to lose, or rooting for tanking; I was rooting for the Raptors to be the best possible Raptors team next season and beyond, and I was able to take emotion out of the equation and realize that rooting for a top-5 pick WAS rooting for the Raptors. I never wanted the coaching staff or players to quit, never ever. However, I was rooting for more ping-pong balls and am now rooting for luck in the lottery. I am not ashamed of that and believe it is in the best interest of building the best possible Raptors team for next season and beyond, which I feel makes me an optimistic, realist sort of fan. I don't judge my fellow Raptor fans and appreciate varying opinions on all things Raptors (which is why I love RR!); just don't question whether I am a true, loyal fan, simply because I place such high value on a top-5 pick in this year's draft and hope like hell the Raps are lucky enough to land one.

                                Sorry for the Friday rant... playoffs next season for the Raptors!
                                Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Apr 27, 2012, 01:50 PM.

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