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Lin to the Raptors a good idea? Lin Raptors Plan B? (168)

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  • #76
    It's not irrelevant. You want the Raptors to empty out their wallets on a guy with no proven track record.

    Jose Calderon has played at the highest level, at a championship level, numerous times internationally. Based on the trend of this thread you're probably going to scoff at that but the pressure is just as great, if not more intense in international play. European fans a crazy at times in comparison to North American fans. Regardless of that, I'm not a strong supporter of Calderon either, I just feel he's a much better PG than Jeremy Lin. Calderon has a long, proven track record in many different situations. Jeremy Lin has very little track record at all. My point about the playoffs is that things change in the playoffs. Teams right now who are likely to draw the Knicks are probably already scouting Lin hardcore. No doubt looking to feast on his poor judgement with the ball, at times. Not to mention that but playoffs ball slows down a lot. So to review Prime, in the playoffs Lin will have to overcome harder defense and a half court system. If he does that I'll be warming up.

    The Raptors have a number of good options to take with the future of their PG spot. There are more proven avenues to proceed down. One of them would be simply waiting a year and seeing what's available then. To give Jeremy Lin full MLE is jumping the gun. Let someone else take the gamble and if it works out there's always next time.

    One final point I'll make. The Knicks are going to match any offer for him so what's the point of even debating it?

    Comment


    • #77
      1. Lin vs Jose is ridiculous. Lin is a basically a rookie and Jose has been around for a long time.
      2. If I had to choose, Lin at ~$5.5M is not that bad compared when you consider Jose's salary and the fact that he does not fit into our future plans. Just look at the way Lin torched us last night as proof, if you needed any.

      Still, no matter how much you like Jeremy Lin, there is no way in hell he is worth the full MLE. Wait, didn't I just say he was better value than Jose? Well of course he is, Jose has possibly the worst contract amongst all starting point guards in the league. Thank God that ugly beast is over next year. I love Jose but that guy is making way, way, way too much money for what he brings.

      Lin at $5.5M would be a great because he's young and has a lot of areas he can work on to get better. He could completely flop, but $5.5M is not that bad. Amir Johnson could have completely flopped too and everyone thought that contract was decent at the time of signing. But in terms of value from a Raptors perspective we'd be far better off looking elsewhere. For example, does anyone think Lin is twice as good as Jrue Holiday, who will make $2.67M next year? Is he as good as Kyrie Irving? For your reference, here are a few notable 2012-2013 NBA point guard salaries (this list will also show how grossly overpaid Calderon is):

      Chris Paul ($17.78M)
      Deron Williams ($17.78M)
      Derrick Rose ($15.51M)
      Russell Westbrook ($12.92M)
      Tony Parker ($12.50M)
      Rajon Rondo ($11.00M)
      Jose Calderon ($10.56M) <---
      Jameer Nelson ($8.60M)
      Devin Harris ($8.50M)
      Mike Conley ($7.31M)
      John Wall ($5.92M)
      Kyle Lowry ($5.75M)
      Jeremy Lin (~$5.5M) <---
      Jarrett Jack ($5.40M)
      Kyrie Irving ($5.38M)
      Jamal Crawford ($5.23M)
      Ramon Sessions ($4.55M)
      Mario Chalmers ($4.00M)
      Stephen Curry ($3.96M)
      Ricky Rubio ($3.74M)
      Brandon Jennings ($3.18M)
      Brandon Knight ($2.68M)
      Jrue Holiday ($2.67M)
      Ty Lawson ($2.54M)
      Kemba Walker ($2.46M)
      Jeff Teague ($2.43M)
      Darren Collison ($2.32M)
      Rodrigue Beaubois ($2.23M)
      Isaiah Thomas ($0.76M)
      your pal,
      ebrian

      Comment


      • #78
        ebrian wrote: View Post
        1. Lin vs Jose is ridiculous. Lin is a basically a rookie and Jose has been around for a long time.
        2. If I had to choose, Lin at ~$5.5M is not that bad compared when you consider Jose's salary and the fact that he does not fit into our future plans. Just look at the way Lin torched us last night as proof, if you needed any.

        Still, no matter how much you like Jeremy Lin, there is no way in hell he is worth the full MLE. Wait, didn't I just say he was better value than Jose? Well of course he is, Jose has possibly the worst contract amongst all starting point guards in the league. Thank God that ugly beast is over next year. I love Jose but that guy is making way, way, way too much money for what he brings.

        Lin at $5.5M would be a great because he's young and has a lot of areas he can work on to get better. He could completely flop, but $5.5M is not that bad. Amir Johnson could have completely flopped too and everyone thought that contract was decent at the time of signing. But in terms of value from a Raptors perspective we'd be far better off looking elsewhere. For example, does anyone think Lin is twice as good as Jrue Holiday, who will make $2.67M next year? Is he as good as Kyrie Irving? For your reference, here are a few notable 2012-2013 NBA point guard salaries (this list will also show how grossly overpaid Calderon is):

        Chris Paul ($17.78M)
        Deron Williams ($17.78M)
        Derrick Rose ($15.51M)
        Russell Westbrook ($12.92M)
        Tony Parker ($12.50M)
        Rajon Rondo ($11.00M)
        Jose Calderon ($10.56M) <---
        Jameer Nelson ($8.60M)
        Devin Harris ($8.50M)
        Mike Conley ($7.31M)
        John Wall ($5.92M)
        Kyle Lowry ($5.75M)
        Jeremy Lin (~$5.5M) <---
        Jarrett Jack ($5.40M)
        Kyrie Irving ($5.38M)
        Jamal Crawford ($5.23M)
        Ramon Sessions ($4.55M)
        Mario Chalmers ($4.00M)
        Stephen Curry ($3.96M)
        Ricky Rubio ($3.74M)
        Brandon Jennings ($3.18M)
        Brandon Knight ($2.68M)
        Jrue Holiday ($2.67M)
        Ty Lawson ($2.54M)
        Kemba Walker ($2.46M)
        Jeff Teague ($2.43M)
        Darren Collison ($2.32M)
        Rodrigue Beaubois ($2.23M)
        Isaiah Thomas ($0.76M)
        Do you realize Jose only has one season left after this one? This idea of Jose Calderon's contract being horrible is totally blown out of proportion. If anything his contract is highly valuable because we're talking the expiring contract of a highly productive PG. There are going to be many teams calling about adding him for a playoff run next season. Just listing 2011/12 contract values isn't enough to gauge a contract's worth. You need to consider time. Time is just as important as the money involved.

        Comment


        • #79
          It's interesting how a majority of the PG contracts in the league are on rookie salaries... A lot of these contracts will go up in a year or two once those contracts end. Guys like Lowry, Wall, Irving, Jennings, Rubio, Lawson, Curry will command a lot of coin in their next contract.

          I don't think it's fair to include rookie salaries when making a point about Jose's salary - yes its very high and he's not worth it, but in fairness if you removed the rookie contracts from your list.. it wouldn't look as bad.

          Comment


          • #80
            Apollo wrote: View Post
            It's not irrelevant. You want the Raptors to empty out their wallets on a guy with no proven track record.
            Our cap space is definitely going to be more than 5.8M. Try again.
            Jose Calderon has played at the highest level, at a championship level, numerous times internationally. Based on the trend of this thread you're probably going to scoff at that but the pressure is just as great, if not more intense in international play. European fans a crazy at times in comparison to North American fans. Regardless of that, I'm not a strong supporter of Calderon either, I just feel he's a much better PG than Jeremy Lin. Calderon has a long, proven track record in many different situations.
            Yes, but if anything he's proved that he's a nonfactor in the playoffs. I don't see how this helps your case at all.

            The way I see it, from your angle it'd still be better to take a chance on a young up-and-comer rather than someone of Jose's caliber.
            The Raptors have a number of good options to take with the future of their PG spot. There are more proven avenues to proceed down. One of them would be simply waiting a year and seeing what's available then. To give Jeremy Lin full MLE is jumping the gun. Let someone else take the gamble and if it works out there's always next time.
            Name me one that has the playoff experience you covet so badly.
            One final point I'll make. The Knicks are going to match any offer for him so what's the point of even debating it?
            Then why don't you go ahead and delete the thread? Last time I checked the thread title was "Would Lin in Toronto be a good idea?" not "Can we get Lin here next year?".

            Comment


            • #81
              Prime wrote: View Post
              Our cap space is definitely going to be more than 5.8M. Try again.
              It was a figure of speech, not meant to be taken literally.

              Prime wrote: View Post
              Yes, but if anything he's proved that he's a nonfactor in the playoffs. I don't see how this helps your case at all.
              Most people don't make such strong judgments on players in such small sample sizes like you do. I've just explained he's performed at a high level in the highest of pressure situations. Go look at his international resume.

              Prime wrote: View Post
              Name me one that has the playoff experience you covet so badly.
              I don't "covet it so badly". I'm telling you I don't trust Lin based on such a small window and the playoffs offer a real test seeing how by the end of the season the window is still so small.

              Prime wrote: View Post
              Then why don't you go ahead and delete the thread? Last time I checked the thread title was "Would Lin in Toronto be a good idea?" not "Can we get Lin here next year?".
              I can tell you're a Lin super fan but you need to calm down here. I'm offering up the voice of reason. If you want no counter points then go to his fan club website.

              Comment


              • #82
                Lin is an average PG and a borderline starter in the NBA. He plays with 2 superstars who draw all the attention from the opposing team and in a system that is still built around the PG. In addition to the 2 superstars, he has several sharpshooters and athletes (ie: fast break opportunities), which allow his stats to become inflated.

                If Toronto's "shooters" (ie: Butler, DeRozan, Kleiza, JJ) could knock down open baskets with any sort of consistency (at least up to league averages), Calderon's assist totals/average would be significantly higher than it already is this season. My point is that stats alone don't paint a fair picture, especially when attempting to compare players.

                Lin is not worth the full MLE, given his personal talent level, track record and high turnover numbers. Plus, with all this "Linsanity" nonsense, you can bet that several teams will be willing to throw around the max MLE just for the marketability he brings. Plus, NY is likely to match any offer, or else their fans might riot.

                So, to answer the question posed by the thread, given the player in question and the likely cost of acquiring him, there is no way in hell that I want to see Jeremy Lin on the Raptors next season or ever. He is extremely overrated and will wind up being extremely overpaid as a result of "Linsanity".

                Comment


                • #83
                  Most people don't make such strong judgments on players in such small sample sizes like you do. I've just explained he's performed at a high level in the highest of pressure situations. Go look at his international resume.
                  I see the pot is calling the kettle black. Go read your comments on page 2.
                  I don't "covet it so badly". I'm telling you I don't trust Lin based on such a small window and the playoffs offer a real test seeing how by the end of the season the window is still so small.
                  See above.
                  I can tell you're a Lin super fan but you need to calm down here. I'm offering up the voice of reason. If you want no counter points then go to his fan club website.
                  Ad hominem. Next.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    5,5mln wouldn't be that much for Lin, but still he's extremely overhyped, the system is inflating his stats, melo and stat are freeing him up and i dont see him being anything above average, but i wouldnt be disapointed with the signing, toronto had alot of contracts that were much worse than 5,5mil

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Prime wrote: View Post
                      Irrelevant, but I'll play along.

                      Last time I checked Jose wasn't even grade B beef in the playoffs.
                      Lin is playing with 2 all stars... case closed.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        Lin is an average PG and a borderline starter in the NBA. He plays with 2 superstars who draw all the attention from the opposing team and in a system that is still built around the PG. In addition to the 2 superstars, he has several sharpshooters and athletes (ie: fast break opportunities), which allow his stats to become inflated.

                        If Toronto's "shooters" (ie: Butler, DeRozan, Kleiza, JJ) could knock down open baskets with any sort of consistency (at least up to league averages), Calderon's assist totals/average would be significantly higher than it already is this season. My point is that stats alone don't paint a fair picture, especially when attempting to compare players.
                        Carmelo is having the worst season of his career by far. Amare is playing well below his usual standards and wasn't even selected for the All-Star team. Neither is the superstar that you claim they are.

                        The only sharpshooter on that team is Novak. The Knicks as a whole shoot a lower % on 3s than the Raptors.

                        NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                        Lin is playing with 2 all stars... case closed.
                        Amare isn't an All-Star. Case closed.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          NY wont let their most marketable asset go.
                          The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Prime wrote: View Post
                            Carmelo is having the worst season of his career by far. Amare is playing well below his usual standards and wasn't even selected for the All-Star team. Neither is the superstar that you claim they are.

                            The only sharpshooter on that team is Novak. The Knicks as a whole shoot a lower % on 3s than the Raptors.

                            Amare isn't an All-Star. Case closed.
                            Do you even watch basketball? Amar'e is a 6 time nba all star... they are both considered all stars and no matter how bad their season is going the defense is still going to pay much more attention to them than a guy like lin who is at best and average starter. Your obsession with Lin is is blinding you from the truth. If you like lin soo much why don't you go watch the knicks?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Prime wrote: View Post
                              Carmelo is having the worst season of his career by far. Amare is playing well below his usual standards and wasn't even selected for the All-Star team. Neither is the superstar that you claim they are.

                              The only sharpshooter on that team is Novak. The Knicks as a whole shoot a lower % on 3s than the Raptors.

                              Amare isn't an All-Star. Case closed.
                              It doesn't matter that Carmelo and Amare aren't playing up to their usual standards, they are still very good players and my point is that they are the players that other teams design their defense around. I seriously doubt that any team (aside from when Miami decided to stop Linsanity) actually designs their defense around stopping Lin. Carmelo and Amare are still the focal points, even if it's on reputation alone.

                              Players like Novak and JR Smith are good shooters, but also just getting the ball inside to Chandler or to guys like Fields for mid-range jumpers, are easy ways to inflate the stats using 3rd, 4th and 5th offensive options. They are also a great defensive team with Chandler anchoring them down low and when they do force a turnover or get a rebound, the entire team looks to run out on odd-man fast breaks, which gives Lin even more chances for gimme assists.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Prime wrote: View Post
                                I see the pot is calling the kettle black. Go read your comments on page 2.
                                Not at all. I'm reserving judgement to when I've seen enough. Been saying that from the get go. I'm a skeptic of Lin's current play and I've seen some flags. I'm saying it's not a wise investment to give him full MLE based on what we've seen, it's not enough time.. You don't need to take this personally. We all want a great team to cheer for.

                                As for the "two stars" theory someone tossed on the table. Jason Kapono is a great case study of this. He looked like a stud next to Shaq and Wade. Colangelo opened up the wallet, overpaid and then we discovered (what some of us were saying prior. ) that his play was so great because of the space provided by playing with two superstars. In Lin's case he had the MDA factor and then he later had the luxury of playing with two high profile guys who demand a huge amount of attention. The theory is worth consideration to say the least. The Raptors have already been burned by similar scenarios. In Toronto he's only going to have Bargnani taking heat off of him. That might mean bad news to a PG who has struggled to make teams who run the half court.

                                Comment

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