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RaptorsHQ: Media Roundtable End of Season Edition

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  • #16
    Additionally, having a GM who fires a quality coach for no logical reason, who turns over the roster every year is not stability either. If the GM/President cannot create stability the whole franchise is unstable.

    I guess this year was an incremental step forward. Only because at the end of the year expectations grew from should fight for a playoff spot to they will be in the playoffs next year.

    Colangelo will survive, but I would have fired him years ago. Firing Mitchell and overpaying Bargnani should have sealed his fate.

    Fool's gold? I don't know but MLSE is getting one of those funky green rings around they neck from wearing that cheap necklaces too long.

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    • #17
      white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      On the first bold...no, they weren't, fans were. Analysts were saying this team could have an outside shot at squeaking into the playoffs if everything went right. Everything didn't go right, so they finished about exactly where they should..mid 30s in wins I think was a pretty standard expectation.

      And I'm not going to agree/disagree with DC stance, but I think you overvalue the coaching impact. Looking at playoff teams, there is only one you can safely say was not really more talented than Toronto...Milwaukee. On paper, the Raptors roster did not compare to obvious playoff teams well at all, and they were always considered a fringe playoff team at best.

      Now, was coachign an issue? Maybe. It seemed so at times.....But, so were players underperforming. Obviously Andrea who gets rightfully blamed for it, but Lowry seems to get endless excuses from many on these forums. He played like crap this year, and I think much less of it is Casey's fault than some around here make it out to be. Also injuries were a legit issue, especially when coupled with roster construction. JV and Bargs go down, and suddenly they're a small ball team with bad shooters...good job BC. I honestly don't know if any coach could've gotten the Raps to the playoffs this year. I thought before the season everything would've had to go totally right just for 38-40 wins.
      Well I'll be short, I just don't support the system DC is playing, watching that kind of basketball doesn't really satisfy me as a fan after I watch games of Houston for instance. Totally fresh and young team as well, but the plays are actually working and players are able to make easier shots. While when you watch TOR playing you see very random stuff, very random, players throwing 3 pointers over the hands like it's 24th second or just going one on one, ignoring the bigs inside. I'm Raps fan, theres no subjectivity in these statements.

      Concerning the fans/analysts part, yeah maybe. Though there were few analysts covering this topic as I remmember "Toronto 8th-7th seed" etc.
      Official Pope of the Raptors sponsored by MLSE.

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      • #18
        blackjitsu wrote: View Post
        Additionally, having a GM who fires a quality coach for no logical reason, who turns over the roster every year is not stability either. If the GM/President cannot create stability the whole franchise is unstable.

        I guess this year was an incremental step forward. Only because at the end of the year expectations grew from should fight for a playoff spot to they will be in the playoffs next year.

        Colangelo will survive, but I would have fired him years ago. Firing Mitchell and overpaying Bargnani should have sealed his fate.

        Fool's gold? I don't know but MLSE is getting one of those funky green rings around they neck from wearing that cheap necklaces too long.
        MLSE has new owners and is currently making changes. Leiweke did not come cheap and he was a huge get for the entire MLSE.

        Maybe I am naive but organizational change appears to be in the works.

        Rogers and Bell absolutely NEED winners for content to maximize profits for the shareholders.

        Spending more on salaries and rosters could significantly increase ad, merchandise, concession, etc. revenues.

        I think the days of the OTPP are over and I think the days of pulling the wool over the eyes of ownership is over.

        Again, maybe I am naive.

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        • #19
          RandomGuy wrote: View Post
          Well I'll be short, I just don't support the system DC is playing, watching that kind of basketball doesn't really satisfy me as a fan after I watch games of Houston for instance. Totally fresh and young team as well, but the plays are actually working and players are able to make easier shots. While when you watch TOR playing you see very random stuff, very random, players throwing 3 pointers over the hands like it's 24th second or just going one on one, ignoring the bigs inside. I'm Raps fan, theres no subjectivity in these statements.

          Concerning the fans/analysts part, yeah maybe. Though there were few analysts covering this topic as I remmember "Toronto 8th-7th seed" etc.
          Yes, but is that on the coach?

          The one I keep going back to is the Irving 3 pter over Anderson. DC was visibly screaming at AA to close the gap for seconds before Irving took the shot. This is likely the way he teaches it in practice as well. AA is also supposed to be his veteran. Well, when your veteran can't make the play the way you want, your team probably sucks balls...I use the defensive example because I remember a specific one, but you see Casey screaming, waving, doing anything to try to get players to execute on offense.

          I mean, Gay is an awful (not necessarily unwilling) passer who throws it all over the place. DeMar literally treated JV like he had the plague for a pretty extended time in the season. Lowry played heroball for the first 2 months. Again, I'm not sure what a different coach really could have done. Bench all those guys and try to win with Lucas, Pietrus and Kleiza?

          I guess my argument is that I'm not sure that these players, for the most part, would fit any system that well, especially when combined together, and especially the way they played this year.

          *People have compared it to knocking square pegs in round holes....I think that's an understatement.
          Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu May 9, 2013, 01:02 PM.

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          • #20
            1. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this season was a step forward, but a very small step indeed. The record, presence of Bargs, and inconsistencies throughout the season say otherwise. However, the emergence of JV is certainly something to be excited about. Furthermore, the mid-season trade to acquire Gay elevated the team on a talent level, and I think it gave the rest of the team more confidence. It gave us a legit closer, someone we can to go down the stretch which was something that was clearly missing at the beginning of the season. We did have the opportunity to make a solid playoff push, but the team didn't look like it really wanted it and that was disappointing. But, I think this team looks better now than it did at the beginning of the season so I'll consider it a step forward although we didn't realize the goal of making the playoffs, which I considered a long shot anyways.

            2. Fool's gold

            3. I am satisfied with Casey for now, but he has to get back to instilling a defensive culture in this team. I'm indifferent to Colangelo for now, simply because I'm not sure firing him now will have a great impact on the team for next season. That being said, if Phil is available and willing then we can clear out the entire front office to make room for him if that's what it takes.

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            • #21
              white men can't jump wrote: View Post
              Yes, but is that on the coach?

              The one I keep going back to is the Irving 3 pter over Anderson. DC was visibly screaming at AA to close the gap for seconds before Irving took the shot. This is likely the way he teaches it in practice as well. AA is also supposed to be his veteran. Well, when your veteran can't make the play the way you want, your team probably sucks balls...I use the defensive example because I remember a specific one, but you see Casey screaming, waving, doing anything to try to get players to execute on offense.

              I mean, Gay is an awful (not necessarily unwilling) passer who throws it all over the place. DeMar literally treated JV like he had the plague for a pretty extended time in the season. Lowry played heroball for the first 2 months. Again, I'm not sure what a different coach really could have done. Bench all those guys and try to win with Lucas, Pietrus and Kleiza?

              I guess my argument is that I'm not sure that these players, for the most part, would fit any system that well, especially when combined together, and especially the way they played this year.

              *People have compared it to knocking square pegs in round holes....I think that's an understatement.
              Well we both are right to some extent I just dont think that any respected coach can have his players not listening to him and trying to not fulfill his demands. And if players do not fulfill coaches demands then yes, as you said, you have to take players out and sometimes even look funny by bringing Pietrus or Kleiza, but this is a must if you want to be respected and treated as a leader. That's why KLow had problems in Houston, coach had too big balls for him.
              Last edited by RandomGuy; Thu May 9, 2013, 02:09 PM.
              Official Pope of the Raptors sponsored by MLSE.

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              • #22
                white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                I guess my argument is that I'm not sure that these players, for the most part, would fit any system that well, especially when combined together, and especially the way they played this year.

                *People have compared it to knocking square pegs in round holes....I think that's an understatement.
                Koreen expresses one of the key problems with the roster:

                Eric Koreen: I think Tim mostly has it right. I would call it a small step back because I find the roster to be totally incongruent with Dwane Casey's coaching philosophy. DeMar DeRozan, Rudy Gay, Amir Johnson and Terrence Ross would all benefit from running often. Casey has trouble accepting the at-times poor shot selection and decision making that comes with it. And if you think Andrea Bargnani - even the healthy and productive version - would fit into a fast-paced offence, you are being willfully blind. Right now, the roster says one thing and the coach says the opposite. Despite a modest improvement in winning percentage, that is a near-disaster, organizationally. Last year, there seemed to be more of a cohesive vision

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                • #23
                  slaw wrote: View Post
                  Koreen expresses one of the key problems with the roster:
                  Somewhat true in the general message, but I don't think the lack of uptempo offense is the right example.

                  This team has many players who are good finishers... Including Lowry, who is frankly, quite average at creating in transition and opts for plenty of bad shots. This team does not have the kind of dynamic end to end players you need to successfully play a lot of uptempo offense. None of the wings are an Iguodala, or Batum, or whoever....Again, we have good finishers, but our PG isn't good enough to run that kind of system, especially without the kind of wing player who's good at initiating the break. We'd either need a PG like Lawson or Wall who can force that tempo, or a wing who can take on some of the duties.

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                  • #24
                    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                    ...Again, we have good finishers, but our PG isn't good enough to run that kind of system, especially without the kind of wing player who's good at initiating the break....
                    I would mildly disagree. Once Casey removed the shackles, Lowry starts every possession looking up the floor. After a basket he is desperate to get the ball. You can see him pleading with the official or raptors inbounder to put the ball in play and he is constantly eyeballing his team mates, looking for someone who is breaking or getting into position for a great pass.

                    And he has made some incredible, spot on passes to breaking players. You could particularly see this during the last dozen games of the season. Koreen identified the lack of running wings as the problem. It is definitely not on Lowry. I think we see and much better Lowry next season, after coach and assistants spend two months reviewing tape and finding out the real reasons the team didn't perform better.

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                    • #25
                      Puffer wrote: View Post
                      I would mildly disagree. Once Casey removed the shackles, Lowry starts every possession looking up the floor. After a basket he is desperate to get the ball. You can see him pleading with the official or raptors inbounder to put the ball in play and he is constantly eyeballing his team mates, looking for someone who is breaking or getting into position for a great pass.

                      And he has made some incredible, spot on passes to breaking players. You could particularly see this during the last dozen games of the season. Koreen identified the lack of running wings as the problem. It is definitely not on Lowry. I think we see and much better Lowry next season, after coach and assistants spend two months reviewing tape and finding out the real reasons the team didn't perform better.
                      I think the problem is that came at the end of the yaer. People say it's after Casey took the shackles off, but Casey had to put the shackles on because earlier in the year Lowry was just playing hero ball, including on the break where he would take lots of wreckless shots and mostly make (bad) passes when he got into trouble. It looked like he didn't trust his teammates at all. Lowry didn't show any signs of consistency this year. He had a good final stretch, where he also looked healthier than he had all season, which I think may have been another major factor. At best he looked like an above average fast break PG, but I didn't think he was showing anything special, where he can push that style without real help.

                      I definitely agree there is an issue with the wings, and I mentioned that as well. Our wings are pretty inept at running the break and basically need to be spoonfed a clear path to the basket. Fields is probably the best at keeping his head up looking for a pass...and he barely played.

                      I also think the final season sample size really has to be taken with a grain of salt. Teams were not playing very hard against Toronto. It's easy to run on teams that are taking the night off.

                      It's 3 am and I'm about to pass out...I'm not sure how coherent any of this was.

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                      • #26
                        Part II RaptorsHQ: Media Roundtable End of Season Edition

                        http://www.raptorshq.com/2013/5/9/43...y-phil-jackson

                        Make sure you click for the discussion. Here are the talking points:


                        RHQ: Regardless of who's running the show for the Raptors next year, what would you say the team's biggest needs are going into the off-season?

                        RHQ: A lot of consensus on the team needs, and a few that could potentially have been taken care of had we seen the magical "13 Game Andrea" reappear this past season. To none of our surprise though, we did not, and therefore moving onto the lightening round here, does Andrea get dealt this off-season and if so, do the Raptors get anything of value back personnel-wise?

                        RHQ: From Bargs we move onto Rudy Gay. Operating under the assumption that Colangelo is back next season, does Gay get the hefty contract extension this off-season that had been rumoured?

                        RHQ: Some final fun ones. Any shot of the Raptors landing in the top three of the upcoming lottery and keeping their pick?

                        What about Phil Jackson? Anyone think he'll make up some part of the Raptors' front office when the 2013-14 campaign kicks off?

                        RHQ: One final question: The season that was. If you could describe it with one song, or one album, any genre, any era, what would you pick?

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                        • #27
                          1. Biggest needs: back up PG, third big, 3 point shooting. I'm not sure this is even debatable if you've watched a full Raptor game since the Gay trade.

                          2. I'm not sure if it is hope driving my desire for Bargnani to be gone or reality but I cannot see him back under any circumstances. I think he can bring something of value back or at the very least a more useless contract with one less season i.e. an expiring (Richard Jefferson).

                          3. A Gay extension makes no sense for Gay or the Raptors. Gay cannot be extended at a salary starting less than his last year on contract ($19.2M) so that would be beyond stupid for Toronto. If you were Rudy Gay would you rather try to get your last big money contract at 28 or 30? I would think 28 so extending two seasons now - which is the most the Raptors could offer - makes no sense. Any extension talk is ridiculous in my opinion. The only thing that would make sense in terms of any contract talk with Rudy would be if he waived his player option that way the Raptors can make moves knowing he would remain if they wanted to keep him or offer assurances to any team who might like to trade for him (similar to what Howard and CP3 did).

                          4. Of course the Raptors have a shot at keeping their pick - although it is extremely unlikely. Hopefully the debt is paid this year. By the way lottery is Tuesday, May 21st.

                          5. I hope Phil Jackson is a part of the franchise when 2013-14 kicks off. I'm not sure why he wouldn't be interested from an organizational perspective. Ownership is desperate to win and is one of the wealthiest ownership groups in the league.

                          6. Album to describe this season: "Nevermind"
                          Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri May 10, 2013, 08:16 AM. Reason: Lottery Tuesday May 21st

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                          • #28
                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            1. Biggest needs: back up PG, third big, 3 point shooting. I'm not sure this is even debatable if you've watched a full Raptor game since the Gay trade.

                            2. I'm not sure if it is hope driving my desire for Bargnani to be gone or reality but I cannot see him back under any circumstances. I think he can bring something of value back or at the very least a more useless contract with one less season i.e. an expiring (Richard Jefferson).

                            3. A Gay extension makes no sense for Gay or the Raptors. Gay cannot be extended at a salary starting less than his last year on contract ($19.2M) so that would be beyond stupid for Toronto. If you were Rudy Gay would you rather try to get your last big money contract at 28 or 30? I would think 28 so extending two seasons now - which is the most the Raptors could offer - makes no sense. Any extension talk is ridiculous in my opinion. The only thing that would make sense in terms of any contract talk with Rudy would be if he waived his player option that way the Raptors can make moves knowing he would remain if they wanted to keep him or offer assurances to any team who might like to trade for him (similar to what Howard and CP3 did).

                            4. Of course the Raptors have a shot at keeping their pick - although it is extremely unlikely. Hopefully the debt is paid this year. By the way lottery is Tuesday, May 21st.

                            5. I hope Phil Jackson is a part of the franchise when 2013-14 kicks off. I'm not sure why he wouldn't be interested from an organizational perspective. Ownership is desperate to win and is one of the wealthiest ownership groups in the league.

                            6. Album to describe this season: "Nevermind"
                            Wow, a thoroughly uninteresting 2nd part to the discussion...easy questions. I don't know if anyone will really disagree with your answers.

                            My choice for song of the year: AC/DC "Highway to Hell", honourable mention to Broken Social Scene "It's All Gonna Break"

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                            • #29
                              1. Agree with what's been posted already. I don't think it's a secret that the Raptors need a backup PG upgrade, another tough big man in the rotation and some outside shooting. Ideally, these holes are filled while addressing some of the logjams at the wing position.

                              2. I can't see the Raptors moving Bargnani for anything of "value". I think the best case scenario would be moving him for a similarly disappointing player that has a shorter term left on his contract; Ben Gordon in Charlotte or something like that. I think the amnesty clause should be fully in play for Bargs this summer.

                              3. No, the conversation of extending Gay should not begin until the summer of 2015 when his current contract expires. Preserve the flexibility of the franchise for as long as you can. This is something that Colangelo has done a terrible job of during his time in Toronto.

                              4. Yes, obviously there's some chance of it happening or the question wouldn't have been asked in the first place. It is a very small chance though, and at this point I think it'd probably be better to just get that trade out of the way and move forward given the reported quality of the upcoming draft.

                              5. I have said all along that I do not think Jackson is coming here and nothing I've read since has made me change my stance at all. The entire story about him coming here stemmed from a very loose connection with Leiweke and the speculation has just grown from there.

                              6. "It's the same old song" - Four Tops
                              Last edited by Fully; Fri May 10, 2013, 11:21 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Song: "Oops, I did it again"

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