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  • #76
    I think a number of the posters fail to understand the importance of a quality defensive Center.

    Question: Would any of you take a temporary stop-gap like Magloire until we could sign a legit starting C?

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    • #77
      Magloire isn't a stop gap. He would be lucky to make it through camp.

      Comment


      • #78
        Apollo wrote: View Post
        "Sense of entitlement" is one of the biggest detriments on not only the NBA but on society as a whole today.
        Couldn't agree more... the main reason I have been vocal about trading Ford, Jack and now Bayless!

        As for Bargnani, rather than giving up on him, here's my alternative thought:
        - bring in a defensive C that can start the game to help set the tone and be used in close game situations when the Raps need to focus on D.
        - let Bargnani come off the bench as the 6th man, to play much higher % of his minutes against opposition 2nd stringers, allowing his offensive advantages to be even greater and his defensive disadvantages be lessened
        - Amir could potentially be used as trade bait, to go with a 3-big rotation of Davis, new defensive C and Bargnani (possibly with Evans retained as 4th big)

        RATIONALE:
        1) Amir @ $4.5-5M per season would likely fetch as much or more than Bargnani on the trade market and the Raps would be dealing a redundant player (they already have Davis for the same position/role)
        2) Bargnani's sense of entitlement would be destroyed and *HOPEFULLY* the light bulb would go on and losing his starting job would serve to motivate him more consistently, especially on defense and on the glass, in an attempt to win back the starting job (I could see Bargnani being a legit threat for 6th-man-of-the-year award next season)
        Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Apr 15, 2011, 05:02 PM.

        Comment


        • #79
          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
          I have no issue accepting complaints about Bargnani's game, but to do so with the argument being Johnson as the Raptors' MVP??? Come on, for most of the season Johnson was invisible on offense and couldn't keep himself on the court long enough to impact it at either end, due to his ongoing fould trouble! From what I read throughout the season, most RR readers preferred Davis to Johnson as the #1 PF...

          For me, Amir & Bayless & Barbosa are the 3 players at the top of the 'trade bait' heap, given the fact that they are all redundant. I agree that the Raptors should target a good defensive anchor type of C, but I'd rather have a 3-big rotation of Davis-Bargnani-anchor than Davis-Johnson-anchor, as it gives the Raps more rotation options and different looks.
          I'm certainly not the only one who picked Amir as the team's MVP at the All-Star break. You're also exaggerating a fair bit. Amir certainly had his fair share of troubles, especially at the beginning of the season, staying on the floor, but the guy averaged nearly 30 mpg in January and February (while injured), and the only reason he didn't continue to do that is because the coaches he sprained his ankle. And he kept playing anyway until he could barely walk, anymore.

          As for his offense, I noticed him plenty. No, he wasn't like Bargnani, but he was a major force on the offensive boards and was a brilliant pick and roll partner will Calderon. And while Bargnani is obviously a much more superior shooter, Amir is far better at moving without the ball and knowing where to go to get the pass. Plus, the only reason he's not 4th in the league in FG% is because he got hurt.

          And while Amir didn't make a huge impact on the offensive end, he didn't make a negative impact. Bargnani certainly was the team's best scorer, but couple that with the fact he was a liability on the defensive end pretty much nullifies his offensive impact.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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          • #80
            Tim W. wrote: View Post
            I'm certainly not the only one who picked Amir as the team's MVP at the All-Star break. You're also exaggerating a fair bit. Amir certainly had his fair share of troubles, especially at the beginning of the season, staying on the floor, but the guy averaged nearly 30 mpg in January and February (while injured), and the only reason he didn't continue to do that is because the coaches he sprained his ankle. And he kept playing anyway until he could barely walk, anymore.

            As for his offense, I noticed him plenty. No, he wasn't like Bargnani, but he was a major force on the offensive boards and was a brilliant pick and roll partner will Calderon. And while Bargnani is obviously a much more superior shooter, Amir is far better at moving without the ball and knowing where to go to get the pass. Plus, the only reason he's not 4th in the league in FG% is because he got hurt.

            And while Amir didn't make a huge impact on the offensive end, he didn't make a negative impact. Bargnani certainly was the team's best scorer, but couple that with the fact he was a liability on the defensive end pretty much nullifies his offensive impact.

            Your points about Johnson are all valid and I don't disagree. I only meant that I didn't think his game overall was impactful enough to be considered the Raptors' MVP.

            The more I think about it, the fact that Johnson, DeRozan and Bargani could all be considered and dismissed just as easily for team MVP, goes to show just how desperate this team is for a true impact player!

            Comment


            • #81
              I actually think that we and me included failt to forget that this was the first full year that ed amir and andrea played together. They are all very young and inexpeienced. Maybe like amir said before his bone headed statemet that they don't need anybody. All they need is more experience and growth. The improved results should come from internal development and not from a some white night who comes in and saves the day. Give the team another year lets see what happens add the high draft pick sign a few low risk vets.

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              • #82
                Apollo wrote: View Post
                I think Amir and DeRozan called it like it is. Yeah, they weren't diplomatic in their presser but who cares.
                You are wrong. This was a classic case of passing the puck and blame the weaker guy on the team and using the exsisting excuses that are out there.

                This will never fly in a cooperate environment. If I am in a team and my team project fails, I can not just say, it was all the fault of Mr.X and this is why we did bad even though X did not do his job right ??!!!

                It is about the process. It is an 82 games season. These guys just went with the most common excuse that was available to them and use AB as their scape goat while ANY knowledgeable Basketball fan knows that the defense of the team does not START and STOP with one guy.

                This is why I want BC to give that the guy they are asking for so we do not sit here another year , with loosing record and the worst defense in the league and get the same excuse from these guys who are suppose to be the building block of our future and getting paid millions.

                With the statement like theirs, I even question their defensive effort. It is easy to slack off and not work hard when you think you can blame someone else for your shortcomings.

                Comment


                • #83
                  DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                  I actually think that we and me included failt to forget that this was the first full year that ed amir and andrea played together. They are all very young and inexpeienced. Maybe like amir said before his bone headed statemet that they don't need anybody. All they need is more experience and growth. The improved results should come from internal development and not from a some white night who comes in and saves the day. Give the team another year lets see what happens add the high draft pick sign a few low risk vets.
                  Bargnani has been in the league for five seasons and hasn't really improved his defense or rebounding. At what point do you go from optimistic that he will suddenly change to certain nothing will change?

                  New teammates have nothing to do with willingness to chase rebounds or box guys out.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
                    You are wrong. This was a classic case of passing the puck and blame the weaker guy on the team and using the exsisting excuses that are out there.

                    This will never fly in a cooperate environment. If I am in a team and my team project fails, I can not just say, it was all the fault of Mr.X and this is why we did bad even though X did not do his job right ??!!!

                    It is about the process. It is an 82 games season. These guys just went with the most common excuse that was available to them and use AB as their scape goat while ANY knowledgeable Basketball fan knows that the defense of the team does not START and STOP with one guy.

                    This is why I want BC to give that the guy they are asking for so we do not sit here another year , with loosing record and the worst defense in the league and get the same excuse from these guys who are suppose to be the building block of our future and getting paid millions.

                    With the statement like theirs, I even question their defensive effort. It is easy to slack off and not work hard when you think you can blame someone else for your shortcomings.
                    +1

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Apollo wrote: View Post
                      Bargnani has been in the league for five seasons and hasn't really improved his defense or rebounding. At what point do you go from optimistic that he will suddenly change to certain nothing will change?

                      New teammates have nothing to do with willingness to chase rebounds or box guys out.
                      amirs been in the league longer. what didn't all the other coachs see in amir that make you so excited about his future? Andrea stated one of his goals in the offseason is to improve on defense. He commited his previous summer improving on offense and we can all agree it sure as hell improved. If he commits the same effort to defense this summer i sure as hell am confident it will improve.
                      Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Fri Apr 15, 2011, 05:14 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Pele wrote: View Post
                        Marc Gasol is perfect.
                        The purpose of the thread is not who is a GREAT fit or if we should bring a DEFENSIVE Center or ... The purpose is to see who is available, who is really trade able and ...

                        Memphis will easily pay Marc Gasol 10-12 Million to stay there. Why would he come to Toronto, a 22 win team and be a part of this so called rebuild that has failed over the last 5 years ??


                        How much is the magical number for Marc and for Memphis that can make Gasol a Raptor ? Or Chandler from Mavs or Nene or ...

                        None of these big names will come cheap to the struggling Toronto and will not be available.

                        What I am most concern about is that if we do not get this " Defensive Center" are we going then to hear same excuse from Amir and DD next year after another miserable loosing season and embarrassing defensive display?
                        Last edited by Raptor4Ever; Fri Apr 15, 2011, 05:21 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                          Couldn't agree more... the main reason I have been vocal about trading Ford, Jack and now Bayless!

                          As for Bargnani, rather than giving up on him, here's my alternative thought:
                          - bring in a defensive C that can start the game to help set the tone and be used in close game situations when the Raps need to focus on D.
                          - let Bargnani come off the bench as the 6th man, to play much higher % of his minutes against opposition 2nd stringers, allowing his offensive advantages to be even greater and his defensive disadvantages be lessened
                          - Amir could potentially be used as trade bait, to go with a 3-big rotation of Davis, new defensive C and Bargnani (possibly with Evans retained as 4th big)

                          RATIONALE:
                          1) Amir @ $4.5-5M per season would likely fetch as much or more than Bargnani on the trade market and the Raps would be dealing a redundant player (they already have Davis for the same position/role)
                          2) Bargnani's sense of entitlement would be destroyed and *HOPEFULLY* the light bulb would go on and losing his starting job would serve to motivate him more consistently, especially on defense and on the glass, in an attempt to win back the starting job (I could see Bargnani being a legit threat for 6th-man-of-the-year award next season)
                          I fail to understand or agree that ED and Amir being redundant is an issue. You of course do not want the same style PG since a change of pace is good and at times desireable, and perhaps at the C position for matchups, but at the PF position I for one like that they play a similar (although not identical) game.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                            Couldn't agree more... the main reason I have been vocal about trading Ford, Jack and now Bayless!

                            As for Bargnani, rather than giving up on him, here's my alternative thought:
                            - bring in a defensive C that can start the game to help set the tone and be used in close game situations when the Raps need to focus on D.
                            - let Bargnani come off the bench as the 6th man, to play much higher % of his minutes against opposition 2nd stringers, allowing his offensive advantages to be even greater and his defensive disadvantages be lessened
                            - Amir could potentially be used as trade bait, to go with a 3-big rotation of Davis, new defensive C and Bargnani (possibly with Evans retained as 4th big)

                            RATIONALE:
                            1) Amir @ $4.5-5M per season would likely fetch as much or more than Bargnani on the trade market and the Raps would be dealing a redundant player (they already have Davis for the same position/role)
                            2) Bargnani's sense of entitlement would be destroyed and *HOPEFULLY* the light bulb would go on and losing his starting job would serve to motivate him more consistently, especially on defense and on the glass, in an attempt to win back the starting job (I could see Bargnani being a legit threat for 6th-man-of-the-year award next season)
                            There are a few problems with this. The first is that if I had to choose which type of player would most likely be able to contribute to a winning team, I'd pick Amir. He consistently works hard at both ends of the court, is a good defensive player and an efficient offensive one. He is a very good role player and will do the dirty work. Bargnani is obviously a very good scorer, but on a good team, scoring is not going to be nearly as needed.

                            Another problem is that Bargnani is being paid as a starter. Amir is being paid at a salary that would be fine coming off the bench.

                            Bargnani has also struggled when he's been asked to come off the bench. Do you really want to risk that and his trade value by doing it again?

                            Lastly, the biggest problem with the Raptors is their defense, and Bargnani is a major reason for that. Trading Bargnani is as much changing the atmosphere of the team as it is getting the best back for him.

                            A lot of people seem to want to figure out how the Raptors would be able to keep him when it's really not worth it in the end. He's really not that transcendent an offensive player to be jumping through hoops to try and figure out how to play him effectively. Trade him and let someone else try and figure it out.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

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                            • #89
                              DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                              amirs been in the league longer. what didn't all the other coachs see in amir that make you so excited about his future?
                              If Amir doesn't improve a lick from here on out and brings what he brought this year for the rest of his contract then it was a sound investment. No where do I say I have bold expectations for Amir Johnson. In fact I've said I suspect he could end up relegated to the bench in a 6th man role. If he keeps up his play then I am happy.

                              DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                              Andrea stated one of his goals in the offseason is to improve on defense.
                              He says that at the end of every season.

                              DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                              He commited his previous summer improving on offense and we can all agree it sure as hell improved. If he commits the same effort to defense this summer i sure as hell am confident it will improve.
                              He only cares about scoring. You can't "learn" desire. Jay pretty much came out and said you can't earn minutes without it so Bargnani and the Raptors are in quite the dilemma if everything stays as is.

                              At what point do you go from optimistic that he will suddenly change to certain nothing will change?

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Bargs is a liability, and he will be dealt this summer , even if you "King Bargs" peasants preach on the forum, it wont make a difference.
                                NBADoppelgangers.tumblr.com

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