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Is the Future not as Bright? (or is the future brighter? see post 130)

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  • #16
    tbihis wrote: View Post
    Im actually just disappointed with Demar, coz of all the BS he was saying how hard he worked in the offseason, etc etc. And its not showing.
    I can understand if the team chemistry is off coz of a shortened season, but he should be doing more individually. Its not like he doesnt get touches, he just doesnt seem like he knows what to do out on the floor. But as ive said before, there might be something else going on behind the scenes. Maybe Casey is telling him to work more on his jumpshot and 3pt shooting rather than slashing, or maybe he has a minor injury, who knows. I kinda noticed that Casey seems to pull him out during the last few minutes of the game, which i dont agree with, coz Demar should be molded as the team's finisher. Maybe Demar doesnt like that either, and prefers to sulk during the 1st 3 quarters instead. Im just speculating here.

    I dont think its early in the season anymore, 14 games is already a lot, specially in a shortened season. I think this is as good as it gets for this season, for the raps, and i dont mind. as long as jose, amir, bargnani, ed, kleiza and jj play hard then thats fine. moving forward, i would like to see amir, bargnani, ed, demar and jj as part of the core, not necessarily starters, but at least part of the main rotation.
    I think you may have hit the nail on it's head when you said that you noticed Casey pulls him out during the last few minutes of the game, but I DON'T think the Raptors should be molding him as the teams finisher.

    He's probably looking around at his fellow draft mates like Tyreke and Jennings and marveling at their success. However, unlike them he doesn't have the talent. I'm not saying that he isn't a good player and can't get better, but he's been in the league long enough to know if he's a star or not, and Demar is not a star. He's been in countless isolation situations where he takes two dribbles and the third is off his foot. I think his biggest problem right now if that he still thinks he's on the same level as his buddies and can't grasp the fact that he might be a role player.

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    • #17
      i'm not disappointed AT ALL..

      casey completely changed the team culture... and two of the players who have bought in the most are probably the two most unlikely to (bargs and jose)

      changes dont happen overnight... with barely any preseason and training camp, and this early into a shortened season with a very busy schedule, and BARGS has bought into a DEFENSIVE philosophy change?

      that's pretty amazing...

      i'm pleasantly surprised he's caught on so fast... but the fact that young kids, who've been stuck in their ways never playing for more than 2 or 3 coaches in their lives... never having been asked to change their game.. are having a tougher time adjusting to a drastic change... it's not really a surprise

      give them time... if they're still this shite 2/3 of the way through the season, then bury them...

      JJ has time to practice his jumper..
      Ed and Demar have time to grow some balls..
      Bayless......... to be honest, i damn near forgot he was even on the team

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      • #18
        Mediumcore wrote: View Post
        I think you may have hit the nail on it's head when you said that you noticed Casey pulls him out during the last few minutes of the game, but I DON'T think the Raptors should be molding him as the teams finisher.

        He's probably looking around at his fellow draft mates like Tyreke and Jennings and marveling at their success. However, unlike them he doesn't have the talent. I'm not saying that he isn't a good player and can't get better, but he's been in the league long enough to know if he's a star or not, and Demar is not a star. He's been in countless isolation situations where he takes two dribbles and the third is off his foot. I think his biggest problem right now if that he still thinks he's on the same level as his buddies and can't grasp the fact that he might be a role player.
        I think the Raptors can probably acquire more credible finishers than Demar, but right now, IMO, he should be the finisher. He should be in late game situations and i think he's actually had success when he does play late in the 4th.

        I think the reason why those two you mentioned have more success than him is because those two are PGs, and most of the time, they have control of the ball. And most of the time, they create plays, unlike Demar who has to wait for the ball from Calderon, who actually opts to give it to Bargnani rather than Demar. But you are right, Demar needs to take care of the ball and need to think 2-3 steps ahead. Im noticing a lot with him too is he dribbles trying to find a spot where he can take the jumpshot, or tries to find an opening in the defense where he can slash, but when he cant find one, he picks up the ball and then he gets swarmed. I think one of the basic teachings in basketball is never pickup your dribble unless youve decided to shoot or pass. i really dont know what going on with him right now.

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        • #19
          only disappointment to me is Demar. i'm sure his production scoring-wise will go up eventually but his defense and fire have been sorely lacking.
          @sweatpantsjer

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          • #20
            Nilanka wrote: View Post
            I know it's early (14 games in), but I'm somewhat disappointed in what I've seen collectively from DeRozan, Davis, J.Johnson and Bayless. Going into the season, I was optimistic that at least 2 of these guys would step forward and cement themselves as legitimate pieces as this team continues the "building" plan, leaving us with just a few holes to fill in the summer of 2012.

            But if this rate continues, our future isn't as bright as I once thought it was, regardless of Valanciunas, the high draft pick and plenty of cap space.

            Agree/disagree?
            I'm a bit more optomistic that we'll be better sooner than later. However, looking at the template other bottom feeders before us have followed to success I think we need to find that star player that can propel a team to the upper level. Even this franchise peaked when we made the draft day trade for VC, and whether you like him or not he was arguably a top 5 or 6player in his prime. LBJ in Clevland, D. Rose in Chicago, Rubio now in Minnesota, Durant etc...

            Bottom line we need to go "all in" in the draft. Trade expiring contracts, trade solid veterans like Calderon and get additional draft picks and take our chances. And it may have to happen in multiple drafts as well..just look at Minnesota that were in the lottery forever until they picked up Rubio. They would still be crap if they didn't have him even though they have a great supporting cast of talent.

            There isn't a player on our roster that is a star. All the praise JV is getting like he's going to be step in and be a starter and have the impact that Blake Griffin had in his rookie year is crazy. He's going to go through a couple years atleast where he struggles to stay out of foul trouble and adjust to the NBA.

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            • #21
              Mediumcore wrote: View Post
              He's probably looking around at his fellow draft mates like Tyreke and Jennings and marveling at their success. However, unlike them he doesn't have the talent. I'm not saying that he isn't a good player and can't get better, but he's been in the league long enough to know if he's a star or not, and Demar is not a star.
              I disagree.. I'm not saying he's a star, but you're saying he doesn't have the talent that Tyreke and Jennings has? That's weak. The talent isn't the problem, it's just the confidence.. He doesn't have much right now because he's going through a rough stretch, it happens.. I know he'll turn it around though, he just has to adjust to a new system under Casey.

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              • #22
                Also, keep in mind this stretch of games has been missing Bargnani yet they have been in the games (ATL, CHI, IND) depite averaging like 15-20 turnovers per game.

                Given how poorly they have played as a team at times and individually, things are still optimistic.

                The great thing about defense is it gives you a chance to win. In the past if the Raptors weren't clicking on offense, they had no chance to win. That appears to be changing. The offense is now struggling but I think that will change in times. Casey's sets have resulted in good scoring opportunities, guys just haven't been making the shots (DeMar and Butler get the majority of the blame here as well as Leandro for a stretch).

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                • #23
                  WJF wrote: View Post
                  What type of player were you expecting Ed to be? I never thought the guy was going to be a future allstar, I think he can be a Udonis Haslem with better length and shot blocking. I never thought the guy would be much more than a 10-13 ppg game, but he can get you 10 boards a night with 1.5-2 block per. While he is not there yet, he is not far off either.
                  Yeah, I'm hoping for a Haslem-type player out of Davis too. I expected a little more offensive touch around the rim, and noticeably better defensive positioning. I was hoping his 15-ft jumper would be better too. I was expecting 10 and 8 averages this year.

                  It doesn't look like the added weight has helped much either. He doesn't look to establish deep post position often, and he still gets pushed around easily on the glass.

                  I know there's still plenty of time for Davis to get up to speed, but I haven't been impressed with what I've seen with him this year, especially when compared to last year.

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                  • #24
                    I don't comment on the articles anymore, its just a bunch of idiots trying to rile you up by talking a lot of smack, heck I barely read the forum, anyways what im trying to say is just relax, maybe take up a new hobby, play some actual basketball, join boxing etc..................watch the games and read articles just don't get into it with idiots its not worth it, next season is going to look a lot brighter anyways.............

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                    • #25
                      I may have the least expectations out of this season than anyone here, so I'm not the least bit disappointed. I did not expect us to win our 4th game until February, so there's that.

                      Everyone except for Bargnani and Jose are playing exactly the way I expected. I see DeRozan as a below average starting caliber SG in the NBA and most likely at best a 6-7th man on a good team -- like a Shannon Brown type. I think Jerryd Bayless is a young Mike James, but I guess we'll have to wait for him to be healthy before he can prove it. Amir is displaying the kind of hustle that I expected while continuing to prove he has no future with the team other than a player coming off the bench who's making $6M per year. Ed Davis is about on par or maybe slightly behind schedule with where I think he should be, and that's probably more to due with Bargnani's great play.

                      Onto the positive, Bargnani before getting hurt was playing well above my expectation. I expected him to falter in a similar fashion to what we're seeing with DeRozan -- unable to bend to Casey's will. Instead he's been playing great. Consistently attacking the basket, putting in the level of effort required, etc. Similarly did not expect Jose to come out the way he has -- I'm going to try to enjoy it for as long as it lasts. His defense has been vastly improved by simply being healthy; he's not as exploitable as he's been over the past couple years.

                      All in all we're about 3-4 years from being a consistent playoff team.
                      your pal,
                      ebrian

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                      • #26
                        Nilanka wrote: View Post
                        I know it's early (14 games in), but I'm somewhat disappointed in what I've seen collectively from DeRozan, Davis, J.Johnson and Bayless. Going into the season, I was optimistic that at least 2 of these guys would step forward and cement themselves as legitimate pieces as this team continues the "building" plan, leaving us with just a few holes to fill in the summer of 2012.

                        But if this rate continues, our future isn't as bright as I once thought it was, regardless of Valanciunas, the high draft pick and plenty of cap space.

                        Agree/disagree?
                        Its a great post and a valid question... I have been having many of the same musings.

                        I love how Jose is playing right now but lets not kid ourselves he has a lot of miles on his body with a decade of year round play with PRO and NATIONAL team. So I would not count him as a piece moving forward. He still can't defend at the point of attack.

                        DeRozens problems are between his ears. I think he will get it eventually. He has a jumper now and is learning when to shoot and when to drive - he ain't vince carter so while he is maturing it is not as fast as people would like and his cieling is not lilkely as high.

                        Amir is legit - Bargs actually appears to be one now too. That gives you 2.5 pieces. You need 8-10 to be a real team in the NBA. The rest are question marks or scrubs.
                        "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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                        • #27
                          Nilanka wrote: View Post
                          I know it's early (14 games in), but I'm somewhat disappointed in what I've seen collectively from DeRozan, Davis, J.Johnson and Bayless. Going into the season, I was optimistic that at least 2 of these guys would step forward and cement themselves as legitimate pieces as this team continues the "building" plan, leaving us with just a few holes to fill in the summer of 2012.

                          But if this rate continues, our future isn't as bright as I once thought it was, regardless of Valanciunas, the high draft pick and plenty of cap space.

                          Agree/disagree?
                          gee, nil, what happened in the span of a few hours?

                          'I realize watching this team lose 7 of their last 8 games is excruciatingly frustrating, but this team is playing EXACTLY how we expected them to prior to the start of the season. We shouldn't let the early season "success" trick us into thinking we're better than we are. Everything is unfolding according to plan.

                          Management warned us that this will be a bad year in terms of wins. When Magloire, Butler, Forbes, Gray and Carter are considered "key" acquisitions, that tells you all you need to know about how bad this team is...and it's by design.

                          Bare with the ugly basketball for now, let the coaches figure out which players are worth keeping (using a full 66 games), and watch Colangelo transform this team into something we can [finally] be proud of this summer. During his last attempt, Colangelo turned a 27-win team into a 47-win team. Only this time he's armed with two top-10 draft picks, and potentially more cap space (depending on the fate of Calderon). Things will turned around....it's all but guaranteed. And no, this opinion isn't a result of drinking kool-aid.'
                          Last edited by yertu damkule; Tue Jan 17, 2012, 12:47 PM.
                          TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

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                          • #28
                            Ryan_1523 wrote: View Post
                            I disagree.. I'm not saying he's a star, but you're saying he doesn't have the talent that Tyreke and Jennings has? That's weak. The talent isn't the problem, it's just the confidence.. He doesn't have much right now because he's going through a rough stretch, it happens.. I know he'll turn it around though, he just has to adjust to a new system under Casey.
                            I stand by that statement and I'm not sure why "that's weak". It was obvious from day one that certain members of his draft class could be "impact players". Tyreke, Jennings, Curry (when healthy), Ty Lawson, Griffin are a different class of players than is Demar. You could see it from day one that they can lead their teams, but players like Demar, Jordan Hill, Thabeet did not show that and have not to this point. The problem is as fans we over value our own players. I'm not saying we should give up on him, but the only reason I'm saying that is because he works hard on improving and not because I see natural talent in him which I see in those other players.

                            What I am saying is that we should give up on expecting him to be a game changer. Nothing wrong with being a role player. Just look at Amir. He know's his role and is flourishing. He's not trying to take over games and put the team on his back because he know's he can't. He excels at what he's good at.

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                            • #29
                              ebrian wrote: View Post
                              All in all we're about 3-4 years from being a consistent playoff team.
                              I agree but I think that timeline is not really what people were anticipating. I think a lot of people felt like Derozan and Davis were core pieces and you'd add JV and the 2012 pick and that would be the core. You'd build around that. Playoffs in 2014 here we come. Now, I think people are realizing that it's quite likely the Raps don't have a single core piece going forward (other than Bargs who is going to be 30 before this team is any good) and it's going to take JV, 2012 1st rounder, 2013 1st rounder, plus maybe another pick in there somewhere before the core is even established.

                              I don't think the disappointment stems from losing, rather from the realization that this team is light years away from being any good.

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                              • #30
                                I believe the future is bright. Excluding the Bosh trade (which essentially helped land Bayless, JJ and cap space), we had a bad record in what many considered a poor draft year. However we may have picked the best player in that draft who plays a position that is difficult to acquire. This year is considered to have a very good draft and we are on the road to picking a potentially great player to play along JV. These two players could essentially turn the team around.

                                Derozan was picked 9th and Davis 13th. To be disappointed in these picks is being a bit harsh I think. I believe both picks were solid.. Derozan you could argue could have been skipped for someone like Jennings, Lawson or Teague, but at the time Derozan looked like a great pick (and I believe he still has it in him to be a great player). Davis at 13th was a no brainer. I'd have no problem resigning Derozan to a cheaper contract. Maybe somewhere around $5-$6M a year. That can be a very affordable contract to someone who turns into an all-star caliber player. Derozan by the way is still only 22 years old and has a lot of room to grow.

                                The ultimate goal in my opinion for this year is to change the culture from a very bad defensive team (ie, a joke to the rest of the league) to something a little more respectable. And by hiring Casey I think that has happened. The only personal changes was to help facilitate that culture change and they are all short 1 year deals.

                                Next year we build on the culture change with JV + the rook(s), and some other talent that we can acquire with trades or through free agency.

                                We are still going to probably suck next year, but its going to be a different kind of suckage. I can see us being more like Minnesota is this year. Not quite a playoff team but on the verge of becoming one.

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