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The case for Rudy Gay to the Raptors: Heisley speaks to rumours (277)

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  • #16
    AJ360 wrote: View Post
    I think that's offering too much. Rudy is a great player, but taking him off Memphis' hands helps them quite a bit already. You throw in a quality draft pick in a good draft and 2 young players at the absolute most.

    Cap space, 2 young players and a lottery pick is already a steep price for a non-all star. I really really like Rudy's game, but I'm not sure hes worth gutting the roster over... That being said I really hope BC can get him without surrendering too much.
    Would you trade Valanciunas to Milwaukee for Mike Dunleavy, Larry Sanders and the #12 pick?

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    • #17
      MangoKid wrote: View Post
      Would you trade Valanciunas to Milwaukee for Mike Dunleavy, Larry Sanders and the #12 pick?
      no, but bigV is locked up for 5 years at a very reasonable price with limitless upside. if bigv were on the other team and i was getting him in return i would make that trade.

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      • #18
        MangoKid wrote: View Post
        Would you trade Valanciunas to Milwaukee for Mike Dunleavy, Larry Sanders and the #12 pick?
        If we were trying to get out of Valanciunas' burdensome contract and the fanbase had turned on him AND we performed worse in the playoffs with him AND that was the best offer, I might.

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        • #19
          Miekenstien wrote: View Post
          no, but bigV is locked up for 5 years at a very reasonable price with limitless upside. if bigv were on the other team and i was getting him in return i would make that trade.
          It's the same premise. You're talking about giving up 50 cents to the dollar.

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          • #20
            MangoKid wrote: View Post
            It's the same premise. You're talking about giving up 50 cents to the dollar.
            i doubt there isn't an owner or gm that doesn't know how much heisley likes money. that team has already made the big splash once, took a backlash and the trade turned out good for them. there is no way i see someone making this an even trade. if this were the stock market, our cap space would be near enough the other 50% of value they are losing out on.

            it isn't going to be a basketball decision. it will be kids and picks to get rid of millions of dollars.

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            • #21
              MangoKid wrote: View Post
              It's the same premise. You're talking about giving up 50 cents to the dollar.
              Not really, I'm talking about providing one team with what they need (cap space) and what they want (young players). Just not every good young player on our roster.

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              • #22
                AJ360 wrote: View Post
                If we were trying to get out of Valanciunas' burdensome contract and the fanbase had turned on him AND we performed worse in the playoffs with him AND that was the best offer, I might.
                Okay then, since you put it that way, the equivalency of that is trading Bargnani to Orlando for Earl Clark, Daniel Orton and he #19 pick. Some fans would support it, others would not, but in the end, we'd be getting 2 young players and cap space. But the value doesn't match up.

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                • #23
                  MangoKid wrote: View Post
                  Okay then, since you put it that way, the equivalency of that is trading Bargnani to Orlando for Earl Clark, Daniel Orton and he #19 pick. Some fans would support it, others would not, but in the end, we'd be getting 2 young players and cap space. But the value doesn't match up.
                  Mango: what team could provide Memphis with a return better than what Toronto could offer?

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                  • #24
                    MangoKid wrote: View Post
                    Okay then, since you put it that way, the equivalency of that is trading Bargnani to Orlando for Earl Clark, Daniel Orton and he #19 pick. Some fans would support it, others would not, but in the end, we'd be getting 2 young players and cap space. But the value doesn't match up.
                    The reality is that the team who ends up with the best player GENERALLY wins the deal. More importantly, when a team wants to move said player, especially when the reason for moving the player is strictly financial, that team will invariably lose the trade from a talent perspective; however they would likely see it as a victory by the virtue of fulfilling their needs.

                    I won't deny the raptors would win this trade from the talent point of view, but they are surrendering a lot of assets including flexibility, which is why in my opinion, a trade involving the 8th pick and 2 young assets would be a fair deal.

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                    • #25
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      Mango: what team could provide Memphis with a return better than what Toronto could offer?
                      I don't get into the habit of conjuring up trades. You get caught up in it, you convince yourself that it's best for the franchise and when it doen't happen or the player of your affection goes elsewhere, there's either A: a lot of heartache or B: a lot of blaming/flaming the General Manager of your team because they didn't complete the trade you had conjured up.

                      I will say this though - the Grizz would be better off trading Randolph than Gay. Solid 4's are easier to find than solid-star swingmen.

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                      • #26
                        Am I the only one that is underwhelmed with the Gay and Iggy trade scenarios?

                        I get that Colangelo needs to save his job and will probably give up some young assets to do so... but I thought we were rebuilding to develop a perennial playoff team that competes for championships. Neither Gay nor Iggy do this!! I like the guys and would selfishly like to see Gay on this team next year, because it brings instant gratification... but both Memphis and Philly are trying to IMPROVE their championship chances by REMOVING the guys we apparently are interested in? On any big market team these type of players would be considered a piece of the puzzle... not by any stretch THE piece. Boston a couple years ago used their young assets to acquire Garnett and Ray Allen... two future hall of famers. We are using our young assets to acquire... Rudy Gay (whose win share % is comparable to guys like Thaddeus Young). Here are his numbers:

                        Can't embed table so here is link

                        Matt, I totally agree with your argument and believe these are the type of guys that Colangelo is looking at, but I am just disappointed in the results of waiting for these last couple years. Our #8 pick could land the 8th pick in the 2006 draft, a draft in which Andrea went first and a draft that was not considered strong. We are trading for proven young talent that MIGHT be an all-star on our team.


                        Signed,

                        "small market team" blues
                        Last edited by The Coach; Sun Jun 3, 2012, 11:43 AM.
                        “Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.”
                        ― John Wooden

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                        • #27
                          In the end, I think this team would be better off just staying the course, building the talent, using that #8 pick. The price tag for Rudy Gay is going to be a lot higher than James Johnson, Ed Davis and the #8 pick.

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                          • #28
                            MangoKid wrote: View Post
                            I will say this though - the Grizz would be better off trading Randolph than Gay. Solid 4's are easier to find than solid-star swingmen.
                            I'll agree with you on that, the problem is that Randolph is Memphis' darling. The fans in Memphis LOVE Randolph. Around the league though, its a different story, he's seen more as the player he was, disruptive to team chemistry, lazy, etc.

                            Rudy is the whipping boy in Memphis which matt mentioned in his original post. Add the fact that in the 2011 playoffs without Rudy they were in game 7 of the west semis and this year they didn't make it through the first round with Rudy and he's overpaid by an owner known to be frugal... It becomes obvious why - rightly or wrongly - Rudy would be the player on the block.

                            Which brings us back to BC wanting to make big moves, the Grizz looking for cap relief from Rudy and matt's trade idea.

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                            • #29
                              MangoKid wrote: View Post
                              I don't get into the habit of conjuring up trades. You get caught up in it, you convince yourself that it's best for the franchise and when it doen't happen or the player of your affection goes elsewhere, there's either A: a lot of heartache or B: a lot of blaming/flaming the General Manager of your team because they didn't complete the trade you had conjured up.

                              I will say this though - the Grizz would be better off trading Randolph than Gay. Solid 4's are easier to find than solid-star swingmen.
                              I don't agree with A or B. The ideas are a point of discussion related to rumours swirling around the league. If the discussion was trading for Kevin Durant, I would most likely agree with you.

                              A lot of Memphis fans will disagree with your statement on trading Randolph. The other issue with Randolph is what can he bring back in a trade? The idea of a solid 4 being easier to find than a solid swingman, if true, is something other teams will also be aware of. In trading Randolph the Grizzlies need to find a team that can live with his personal and injury history, his contract, and his age.

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                              • #30
                                The Coach wrote: View Post
                                Am I the only one that is underwhelmed with the Gay and Iggy trade scenarios?

                                I get that Colangelo needs to save his job and will probably give up some young assets to do so... but I thought we were rebuilding to develop a perennial playoff team that competes for championships. Neither Gay nor Iggy do this!! I like the guys and would selfishly like to see Gay on this team next year, because it brings instant gratification... but both Memphis and Philly are trying to IMPROVE their championship chances by REMOVING the guys we apparently are interested in? On any big market team these type of players would be considered a piece of the puzzle... not by any stretch THE piece. Boston a couple years ago used their young assets to acquire Garnett and Ray Allen... two future hall of famers. We are using our young assets to acquire... Rudy Gay (whose win share % is comparable to guys like Thaddeus Young). Here are his numbers:

                                Can't embed table so here is link

                                Matt, I totally agree with your argument and believe these are the type of guys that Colangelo is looking at, but I am just disappointed in the results of waiting for these last couple years. Our #8 pick could land the 8th pick in the 2006 draft, a draft in which Andrea went first and a draft that was not considered strong. We are trading for proven young talent that MIGHT be an all-star on our team.


                                Signed,

                                "small market team" blues
                                Really good post.

                                I agree with everything you said on Iguodala.

                                As for Gay, the issue with Memphis is too many eggs in one basket (Gay-Conley-Randolph-Gasol) and an owner who refuses to go in to the luxury tax. If Memphis went in to the tax, a trade would be a non-issue because they could resign the free agents they have while using their exceptions to address the backup PG and C.

                                When looking at what Boston did with Garnett and Allen, the Celtics acquired those guys when they were both 32 years of age. Gay is just 26 in August and I do think (and was a big part of the case for Gay) that he can still get better - especially on the defensive end - with a coach/teacher/motivator like Casey. In 6 years time, people might have a different view on Gay... they might not too as it is an unknown.

                                As for trading the #8 pick, it is not an easy decision by any means but nothing is guaranteed on the career potential of a draft pick. Just as he could become an all-star, he could be a total bust.

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