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  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
    1) Amnesty is not an option. It does not provide any benefit except for sending him packing. While that is a great benefit in and of itself, dollars over the salary cap are valuable and impossible to replace without an exception. Given current roster and money owed, you need to get anything of value for him - and while I am definitely still all about #tradeBargnani I think something of value can come back.

    2) Sit tight is not an option. We've been sitting tight for 7 years and how has that worked out?

    3) Any realistic trade should be for a dreadful expiring contract (Jefferson, Biedrins, Gordon, etc.); with any team that thinks they can tap his potential (I laughed typing that); for a contract as bad as or worse with another asset attached such as a draft pick or prospect (Tyrus Thomas? *shudder* Beasley? *shriek*); or with a really cheap team making a financial move (Da Bulls).
    Would you take Beasley if Scola was the attached piece? My thought is that buying out 2 years of Beasley still costs roughly the same as paying one of Bargnani's years. It doesn't provide any cap relief because it's not an amnestied deal, but the team has no flexibility anyway, it costs less total dollars, and it could open a roster spot even just for a minimum contract guy. Even if it doesn't provide the same (technically useless) cap relief, but if they get Scola and even just sign an end of bencher like Marquis Daniels or Francisco Garcia, I'd be fine with that.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu May 9, 2013, 08:12 PM.

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    • Matt52 wrote: View Post
      1) Amnesty is not an option. It does not provide any benefit except for sending him packing. While that is a great benefit in and of itself, dollars over the salary cap are valuable and impossible to replace without an exception. Given current roster and money owed, you need to get anything of value for him - and while I am definitely still all about #tradeBargnani I think something of value can come back.

      2) Sit tight is not an option. We've been sitting tight for 7 years and how has that worked out?

      3) Any realistic trade should be for a dreadful expiring contract (Jefferson, Biedrins, Gordon, etc.); with any team that thinks they can tap his potential (I laughed typing that); for a contract as bad as or worse with another asset attached such as a draft pick or prospect (Tyrus Thomas? *shudder* Beasley? *shriek*); or with a really cheap team making a financial move (Da Bulls).
      I'd rather have Bargnani than Beasley. At least our Dance Pak can feel safe with Bargs.
      Twitter - @thekid_it

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      • I voted trade, but I do not like any of those trades more than content.

        If I honestly had to choose one deal, it would be the Sacramento deal, only for a couple reasons:

        1. The main reason, is the fact we don't give up any additional assets. I cringed at the Warriors deal because we give up Amir, for Lee who has likely peaked, and you could make an argument for Amir at his peak, but, from the team standpoint, Amir stands and or represents a lot for the team.

        2. The Hornets trade seems fine, debatable, but fine. I wouldn't be upset with the Hornets deal, but Eric Gordon's salary is obviously higher than DeRozan's, and while Gordon is a more skilled player, he's very injury prone. This team has enough issues with injuries.

        3. Chuck Hayes is an undersized big man, yes, but he's a banger, solid defender, good rebounder. Can play both the power forward and centre positions, which would be a bonus, because this team obviously revolves around versatility. His contract might be a problem at $7 million a year, but he's a big man off the bench who addresses an issue of need, compared to a big man who's injury prone, soft, play style no longer fitting the team, and $10 million a year and arguably useless, is a win in this trade.

        4. The team needs shooting, and whilst he hasn't lived up to the expectations, Jimmer Fredette is a capable perimeter shooter, and with John Lucas III being more suited as the 3rd string, and Telfair likely walking, Fredette can be a different look to Lowry off the bench. Obviously, a bit more scoring minded, but an underrated passer, at the very least, he's a player that can get a team into their offense, and on a rookie scale contract.
        Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
          1) Amnesty is not an option. It does not provide any benefit except for sending him packing. While that is a great benefit in and of itself, dollars over the salary cap are valuable and impossible to replace without an exception. Given current roster and money owed, you need to get anything of value for him - and while I am definitely still all about #tradeBargnani I think something of value can come back.

          2) Sit tight is not an option. We've been sitting tight for 7 years and how has that worked out?

          3) Any realistic trade should be for a dreadful expiring contract (Jefferson, Biedrins, Gordon, etc.); with any team that thinks they can tap his potential (I laughed typing that); for a contract as bad as or worse with another asset attached such as a draft pick or prospect (Tyrus Thomas? *shudder* Beasley? *shriek*); or with a really cheap team making a financial move (Da Bulls).

          It doesn't offer the same benifit it would if the team was already under the salary cap, but it does free up space below the tax threshold. This leaves a little more wiggle room for trades and gives the team more opportunity to go into the tax in future years with less penalty (should they choose to). It also free up space below the salary cap (depending on Colangelo/a real GMs, moves this offseason) for the following year.

          Also, should the salary cap threshold increase this coming year, there is a shot the Raps could drop below it if they amnesty Bargnani.

          Getting something of value in return for Bargnani is ofcourse the best option, but also not entirely clear its even likely. Amnestying Bargnani should most definetely be seen as a legitimate option.
          Last edited by Craiger; Fri May 10, 2013, 07:04 AM.

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          • The correct option is sit tight. Bargnani's value is at an all time low. If you try to trade him, you'll get next to nothing. If you amnesty him, the next team that signs him will sign him for next to nothing (which means MLSE will be paying the major portion of his salary for the next two years).

            You sit tight and wait. You don't have to play him much, or at all. At worst he becomes an expiring contract which is much more valuable than him right now. The whole "We've waited 7 years" argument doesn't apply here because now, the expectations are zero, and all we're waiting for is some trade value.

            Comment


            • Might I suggest a 4th option, to buy him out. Can't we negotiate a buyout with AB? He's a man, he has pride and doesn't want to come off the bench on a team where he's no longer considered as part of the future. He's been competely singled out by fans to a point where they boo him at home games.

              Why wouldn't he agree to take 50% (hypothetically) of his contract and go look for another team or even go back to Italy and play for his home team. He'll be a national hero once again and life will be good. No more booing, no more feeling like he doesn't belong, and he's still young enough to get a nice fat contract to recoup the money he's giving up to leave Toronto. Win, win?

              Comment


              • Why am I so drawn to the Chuckwagon/Jimmer trade? Is it just because I want Andrea to have to spend a season with Demarcus Cousins? Oh god that could be fun

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                • Craiger wrote: View Post
                  It doesn't offer the same benifit it would if the team was already under the salary cap, but it does free up space below the tax threshold. This leaves a little more wiggle room for trades and gives the team more opportunity to go into the tax in future years with less penalty (should they choose to). It also free up space below the salary cap (depending on Colangelo/a real GMs, moves this offseason) for the following year.

                  Also, should the salary cap threshold increase this coming year, there is a shot the Raps could drop below it if they amnesty Bargnani.

                  Getting something of value in return for Bargnani is ofcourse the best option, but also not entirely clear its even likely. Amnestying Bargnani should most definetely be seen as a legitimate option.
                  If the Raptors amnesty Kleiza as rumoured and if the cap goes up a couple of million as rumoured then it makes no difference. The largest difference in salary under $9.8M is 150% plus 100k. Over 9.8M the salary difference must be no more than $5M.

                  Again the assumption is the luxury tax goes up $2M and Kleiza is amnestied but with this happening you get the flexibility you speak of by amnestying Bargnani.

                  At the very least I think Bargnani could return Richard Jefferson from Golden State or Ben Gordon from Charlotte. Both are expiring contracts and you get the flexibility for the summer of 2014 you referenced.

                  As for more opportunity to go in to the tax in future years, not sure how that would work. Once over the cap you only have exceptions and the allowable differences in salary in trades to add salary. Bargnani's salary removed puts them at $60M or so next season and a full MLE combined with $5M in salary coming in on a lopsided trade doesn't put them in the luxury until you start adding minimum salaries.

                  Comment


                  • I don't think that 50/50 buyout is an option. Would anybody leave $10 mil on the table no matter what they had to endure?

                    My head hurts from Matt's amnesty/cap/tax explanation. So the gist is that is doesn't make much sense to amnesty Bargs? I'll go with that. Thanks, Matt.

                    As for Richard Jefferson, Ben Gordon deals... I thought about including that in the original post. But I could not, for the life of me, come up with a reason why those teams would take on an extra year of $12 cap-clog to have Andrea play for them. I'm not willing to stamp those deals as "realistic" unless we can get a good explanation going for that.

                    As for the Super Cool Beez idea, I couldn't bring myself to include him in any deal i listed. I agree with whomever said they'd rather have Bargs. Could Beez even get into Canada at this point?

                    The Sacto deal... I started off with Thompson in the deal. But I didn't have a reason why the Kings would flip JT for Andrea. Hayes seemed like the better fit from their perspective. I liked Hayes because he may even be able to show Acy a thing or 2 about post D as a super-undersized guy.

                    I'm surprised at the amount of people saying they wouldn't give up Amir for David Lee. Lee's defensive issues are well documented, but he's a walking double-double. He's a vetern presence, a solid team leader, and has a ton of hussle. He'd be a good influence on our young guys. I think he, JV and a combination of our wings sliding down to the 4 could make a competent 4-5 rotation. We could sign somebody like Grey or Jason Collins as insurance for the big-man rotation. I expected people to call me out by saying that GState would never take on Bargs if giving up an all-star, not make the opposite case. One day I'll learn how over-valued our players (Amir, in this case) are in this board.

                    Also surprised that guys are throwing their bodies in front of a DD for EG trade. Gordon gives us the shooting we need to space the floor for the effective post game of Rudy Gay (and hopefully the developing post game of JV). He's a bull when going to the basket too, so he can maintain an effective part of the O that Demar brings to the table. He's got a decent handle, which could settle our issues in that department a lil bit. I do have concerns about his injuries and his ability to mesh with Kyle, but shooting down the EGordon/Demar trade immediately is very surprising to me... especially because we gave up AB in the hypothetical deal! If anything, New Orleans says no and looks for more in exchange for Gordon.

                    I think landing Eric Gordon or David Lee in a Bargnani deal (even if giving up Amir or Demar) would be a huge coup for whoever is making our BBall decisions these days.
                    Last edited by NoBan; Fri May 10, 2013, 10:40 AM.

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                    • http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ca9fuvk +their 2nd rd pick

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                      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        If the Raptors amnesty Kleiza as rumoured and if the cap goes up a couple of million as rumoured then it makes no difference. The largest difference in salary under $9.8M is 150% plus 100k. Over 9.8M the salary difference must be no more than $5M.

                        Again the assumption is the luxury tax goes up $2M and Kleiza is amnestied but with this happening you get the flexibility you speak of by amnestying Bargnani.

                        At the very least I think Bargnani could return Richard Jefferson from Golden State or Ben Gordon from Charlotte. Both are expiring contracts and you get the flexibility for the summer of 2014 you referenced.

                        As for more opportunity to go in to the tax in future years, not sure how that would work. Once over the cap you only have exceptions and the allowable differences in salary in trades to add salary. Bargnani's salary removed puts them at $60M or so next season and a full MLE combined with $5M in salary coming in on a lopsided trade doesn't put them in the luxury until you start adding minimum salaries.
                        If the Cap goes up 2 mil its sitting at approx 60 mil

                        Amnestying Bargnani puts the Raptors at approx 62 mil for the 2013/14 season with all options picked up, and at 49.5 mil for the 2014/15 season with all options picked up.

                        Amnestying Kleiza puts the Raptors at approx 68.3 mil for the 2013/14 season and 61 mil for the 2014/15 season.

                        So, as I stated before, using the amnety on Bargnani leaves them more wiggle room under the tax to make moves this year without exceeding the tax. This doesn't mean its easily done, but it does give them more room. Staying under the tax this year (with a little more room to make a move) means potential future years of exceeding the tax with a smaller tax hit. It also leaves Kleiza's expiring contract to make a deal.

                        For the 2014/15 season (depending on an additional increase of the cap), amnestying Kleiza leaves them above the salary cap, amnestying Bargnani leaves them well below the cap before considering other moves.

                        Toronto is offered more flexibility than they currently have by amnestying Kleiza, but not as much as they do by amnestying Bargnani both this season, and more so going forward.


                        As for Bargnani being traded for an expiring, that would be great and more benificial than amnestying him - but that is also far from a sure thing.

                        While amnestying Bargnani is not necessarily the best or ideal option (clearly getting something 'good' for him would be the ideal option) it is still an option, and it does offer more flexibility for the team (even if its small) than not amnestying him and/or amnestying Kleiza instead. Things do still change in Toronto's salary cap favor, just not as much as we may like them to.

                        Comment


                        • I have always defended Bargs, but I certainly understand the fact that most fans are "done" ... and as Colangelo noted publicly, maybe a change of scenery for both would be ideal. Just an angle to consider:

                          As constructed TODAY, we have a starting unit of: Lowry, Demar, Rudy, Amir & Jonas (awesome)
                          We have TRoss, and Fields as options at the wing off the bench; Gray and Acy as deep bench bigs, and JL3 as 3rd PG.

                          Needs: 3rd bench big, backup PG.

                          Is Andrea Bargnani not even worthy of a shot to try and mesh with this new team as a bench scorer? Maybe not, and yes - he was horrid last year, and yes he is not a strong rebounder or help defender ... I guess to me, he has a lot of the qualities I am searching for in a 3rd big: ability to stretch the defence, can play 5 in small lineups, works well with Jonas or Amir, has the ability to impact a game when your squad needs to change it up some nights.

                          Why keep? Because I think the asset is at it's lowest historical value, and will rise.
                          The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

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                          • Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post

                            Is Andrea Bargnani not even worthy of a shot to try and mesh with this new team as a bench scorer? Maybe not, and yes - he was horrid last year, and yes he is not a strong rebounder or help defender ... I guess to me, he has a lot of the qualities I am searching for in a 3rd big: ability to stretch the defence, can play 5 in small lineups, works well with Jonas or Amir, has the ability to impact a game when your squad needs to change it up some nights.

                            Why keep? Because I think the asset is at it's lowest historical value, and will rise.
                            Bold 1 - this is a bit of an understatement. He is not only 'not strong', he is one of the worst in the league, if not one of the worst in history.

                            Bold 2 - this was a sentiment stated after the first quarter/half of the season, and I'll say now what I said then. Just because something is at an all time low, doesn't mean it can't go lower. We've witnessed this already take place over the course of this season, and there is no reason to believe it can't continue going forward.

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                            • Craiger wrote: View Post
                              Just because something is at an all time low, doesn't mean it can't go lower.
                              Sadly, this also applies to most of the stocks I buy....

                              As for realistic options, Bargs might be one of those cases where you take a flyer on a talented, underperforming, meathead another team wants to ditch. After all, it can't be worse and it's not like you're giving up a player of value. There are always multiple guys like this around if you can sniff them out. All the GMs know who they are, though we don't.

                              Problem here is that, from other teams' perspectives, how do you sell trading for Bargs to your fanbase? It has to be sold as an expiring contract, doesn't it? He's up in, what 2 years. Any crappy teams that are tanking fit the bill? Can't see a contender or even a playoff team trading for Bargs.
                              Last edited by slaw; Fri May 10, 2013, 11:44 AM.

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                              • Craiger wrote: View Post
                                If the Cap goes up 2 mil its sitting at approx 60 mil

                                Amnestying Bargnani puts the Raptors at approx 62 mil for the 2013/14 season with all options picked up, and at 49.5 mil for the 2014/15 season with all options picked up.

                                Amnestying Kleiza puts the Raptors at approx 68.3 mil for the 2013/14 season and 61 mil for the 2014/15 season.

                                So, as I stated before, using the amnety on Bargnani leaves them more wiggle room under the tax to make moves this year without exceeding the tax. This doesn't mean its easily done, but it does give them more room. Staying under the tax this year (with a little more room to make a move) means potential future years of exceeding the tax with a smaller tax hit. It also leaves Kleiza's expiring contract to make a deal.

                                For the 2014/15 season (depending on an additional increase of the cap), amnestying Kleiza leaves them above the salary cap, amnestying Bargnani leaves them well below the cap before considering other moves.

                                Toronto is offered more flexibility than they currently have by amnestying Kleiza, but not as much as they do by amnestying Bargnani both this season, and more so going forward.


                                As for Bargnani being traded for an expiring, that would be great and more benificial than amnestying him - but that is also far from a sure thing.

                                While amnestying Bargnani is not necessarily the best or ideal option (clearly getting something 'good' for him would be the ideal option) it is still an option, and it does offer more flexibility for the team (even if its small) than not amnestying him and/or amnestying Kleiza instead. Things do still change in Toronto's salary cap favor, just not as much as we may like them to.
                                Sorry, I meant to say cap AND luxury tax. Theoretically if one goes up the other should as well.

                                Also, with what I said about the trades the assumption is there would only be one big trade causing $5M excess salary to come in. Amnestying Bargnani would allow more than 1 big trade. However big trades are rare enough, I can't see the Raps making 2 - although I've been wrong many times before.

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