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DeMar DeRozan: The new Jrue Holiday?

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  • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    It is a matter if fit and the goals of the organization. I'm sure Milwaukee would love to get back to the playoffs sooner rather than later and may want to cash in future pieces to get better now.

    Or if the other teams thinks DD would fit great with their roster and were able to offer us some collection of players that better suits our roster...

    Like you said it isn't cut and dry



    Well I am definitely undercutting his value.

    Seems to me he is valued here at a rotation player+2 firsts (lotto), or a big time prospect and a first (Lotto). To put it in perspective Harden only returned two very late lottos and an established Kevin Martin and he was the reigning sixth man. Some of the proposed trades are ridiculously lopsided. Oladipo is up for rookie of the year, and you also want 2 picks for DeMar? Milwaukee giving up probably Exum (a top 5 guy) and a good SG (Delfino) for DeMar? Horford is an allstar plus a late lotto pick and a prospect for DeMar and a second rounder??

    I think that you guys are over-evaluating DeMars value. He is only a first time all-star with only 2 years on his contract and has some holes in his game (not to hate, just being realistic)

    I would put his value at a bad contract for a 5-8 pick or an established player and a late lotto or a high value prospect plus a later first round pick



    This scenario I think the option is to go the Holiday route and do rebuild around Ross/Val, who hopefully know how to return to winning and can teach the new kids...
    The harden situation was unique because OKC refuses to pay tax and thus forced a deadline onto themselves. They basically abandoned leverage so they could avoid a financial situation they don't want, and settled for worse value.

    Also harden was not yet an all star and was looking for max money, whereas demar is a proven all star on a pretty cheap deal.

    EDIT: The deals I propose definitely seem Raptors-favouring...but that's the point...

    Orlando: Oladipo...Could be rookie of the year in arguably the worst rookie-class ever. He's not particularly good at anything. He looks a bit undersized out there for SG, and underskilled for PG. I like him, but I can't help but see 6th man type player when I watch him play, or inefficient starting SG. Which is what some people used to say about DeMar. Could be right this time, could be wrong again...the 2 picks is assuming that they'd both be late lottery picks. It's entirely possible and not at all unlikely that all 3 of those assets fail to become as good a player as DeMar is now. For a higher pick (like their own pick this year), I said in the second scenario they could fit with Afflalo and Harkless (veteran at his peak, and limited youngster).

    Milwaukee: Delfino is 31 right now and just had major foot surgery. He'll be lucky to stay healthy and play at a similar level as he used to. Pachulia and Ilyasova are good role players...But if Ilyasova can't recapture his old form, he's paid quite a bit, and Pachulia is fully replaceable, and is also probably overpaid. Basically you're getting their pick first and foremost, a role player, and a guy you probably right off and anything he gives you is a bonus.

    Atlanta: It was Horford and a pick OR prospect, not and, for DeMar and a 2nd rounder and/or Hansbrough (for example). I said in my own post I don't see why Atlanta would do it, but that if an offer like this came around, I'd struggle to contain myself.

    As has been pointed out many a time, the idea is to get a "godfather" deal. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense to trade.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon Apr 7, 2014, 04:30 PM.

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    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      The harden situation was unique because OKC refuses to pay tax and thus forced a deadline onto themselves. They basically abandoned leverage so they could avoid a financial situation they don't want, and settled for worse value.

      Also harden was not yet an all star and was looking for max money, whereas demar is a proven all star on a pretty cheap deal.

      Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
      The Harden trade is also widely considered a terrible one for OKC. So lets avoid that lol.
      "Bruno?
      Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
      He's terrible."

      -Superjudge, 7/23

      Hope you're wrong.

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      • stooley wrote: View Post
        The Harden trade is also widely considered a terrible one for OKC. So lets avoid that lol.
        They've also just generally done a bad job in trades. Which means poor asset management. And they're unwilling to pay over the tax. They draft fairly well and that's about it.

        Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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        • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
          They've also just generally done a bad job in trades. Which means poor asset management. And they're unwilling to pay over the tax. They draft fairly well and that's about it.

          Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
          I think being unwilling to pay the tax has put them behind the 8-ball in trades.

          Teams know they are at a disadvantage because of that when it comes to negotiations.

          Comment


          • BigCamB wrote: View Post
            The " stop hating on DeMar, playa hatazzzzzzs" crowd need to chill out.
            I know this is super off topic and I'm sorry if I'm wrong




            Are you the cam that used to be on the score. The ginger?
            I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

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            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
              I think being unwilling to pay the tax has put them behind the 8-ball in trades.

              Teams know they are at a disadvantage because of that when it comes to negotiations.
              It also means that cost controllable assets, such as the draft picks that were acquired for Harden, have even greater meaning to OKC than they would for many other teams in the league. The hope was that Toronto's pick (via Houston) would have been higher than it turned out to be.

              Situationally, OKC was desiring to still take an immediate step forward while still staying below the cap. Toronto, if it were to entertain trading DeRozan, wouldn't be locked into this type of thinking. If a team at or near the top of the draft is wanting more immediate success, would Toronto be willing to take a temporary step backward in order to hopefully take a future step forward?

              Ujiri has one determining factor in mind, will/could this eventually bring Toronto closer to being a championship caliber team. That doesn't necessarily mean next year, particularly since the team is set up with large cap space in the near future...and even more if DeMar's contract is taken off the books.
              http://twitter.com/m_shantz

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              • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                If somebody said to dump DeRozan for a 2nd round pick?

                Brainstorming trade ideas with an expected return that would widely be considered fair market value for an all-star - regardless of the motivation behind the brainstorming - is anything but hate.
                Let's be clear....I didn't call out anyone for being a hater in this thread. I simply said i understood why this thread would rub some people the wrong way considering who started it. However, as far as i'm concerned, the past is the past. You, like Matt52, have come to the realization that Demar has a lot of value and not just an "innefficient chucker who does nothing other than score." I don't consider this discussion hate at all....simply saying i can see why others may say....here we go again.

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                • I don't agree with this at all.

                  Jrue Holiday was putting up hollow numbers on a garbage team. He's at best the 10th best point guard in the NBA (thats kinda pushing it too) but Derozan is probably a top 5 shooting guard today, that plays for a winning team. He's consistently improving and has not even entered his prime yet.

                  Derozan is a keeper no question.
                  His game is less about atheleticism and slashing now and more skill than compared to when he first entered the league.
                  He has good height for his position, is a willing passer and a good locker room guy.
                  You analytical guys need to start using the eye test more.

                  Derozan's has shown a decent post game this season (how many 2 guards have that? Kobe? Jordan?)
                  And honestly, he's looking more like Kobe everyday.

                  If we get this guy a legitimate coach and not the offensively inept Dwane Casey, and one more piece then we have a chance for a title run.

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                  • special1 wrote: View Post
                    Let's be clear....I didn't call out anyone for being a hater in this thread. I simply said i understood why this thread would rub some people the wrong way considering who started it. However, as far as i'm concerned, the past is the past. You, like Matt52, have come to the realization that Demar has a lot of value and not just an "innefficient chucker who does nothing other than score." I don't consider this discussion hate at all....simply saying i can see why others may say....here we go again.
                    I was replying to the question you posed, about a type of situation that could be considered 'hate'.

                    As for DeRozan, I haven't come to any realizations, as my opinion on DeRozan has never changed. I still view his scoring as being largely inefficient and his defense to be terrible. I give him full credit for improving the peripheral aspects of his game - rebounding and assists - as I always felt he could. Even when I was called a 'hater' in the past, I never once questioned his trade value, as I've always felt he was held in high regard around the league - he's young, talented, still has potential, is fairly paid (glad he earned it so quickly, beyond any doubt), hardworking, is a great teammate, and has good character.

                    With his all-star appearance and the emergence of Ross, I really do think that there's never been a better time to explore the possibility of selling high. I also wouldn't be the least bit upset if he stays with Toronto. The fact is, for all the things that make him a good player and highly popular, along with his salary/contract status, he is the team's most marketable asset; if that isn't a compliment, I don't know what is?!

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                    • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      I was replying to the question you posed, about a type of situation that could be considered 'hate'.

                      As for DeRozan, I haven't come to any realizations, as my opinion on DeRozan has never changed. I still view his scoring as being largely inefficient and his defense to be terrible. I give him full credit for improving the peripheral aspects of his game - rebounding and assists - as I always felt he could. Even when I was called a 'hater' in the past, I never once questioned his trade value, as I've always felt he was held in high regard around the league - he's young, talented, still has potential, is fairly paid (glad he earned it so quickly, beyond any doubt), hardworking, is a great teammate, and has good character.

                      With his all-star appearance and the emergence of Ross, I really do think that there's never been a better time to explore the possibility of selling high. I also wouldn't be the least bit upset if he stays with Toronto. The fact is, for all the things that make him a good player and highly popular, along with his salary/contract status, he is the team's most marketable asset; if that isn't a compliment, I don't know what is?!
                      Something else to consider:

                      With a healthy Lopez, Horford, Rondo, and Rose do you think DeRozan makes the ASG? I don't and it is another reason that if you can get a Holiday-like return you need to consider trading DeRozan. Horford may or may not bump Millsap and Lopez might bump Joe Johnson but you still have Rondo and Rose who are also guards.

                      Of course given these circumstances, DeRozan was 100% worthy of making the ASG. I know this should go without saying but.... y'know.

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                      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        Something else to consider:

                        With a healthy Lopez, Horford, Rondo, and Rose do you think DeRozan makes the ASG? I don't and it is another reason that if you can get a Holiday-like return you need to consider trading DeRozan. Horford may or may not bump Millsap and Lopez might bump Joe Johnson but you still have Rondo and Rose who are also guards.

                        Of course given these circumstances, DeRozan was 100% worthy of making the ASG. I know this should go without saying but.... y'know.
                        Given the Raptors' success and place in the standings (which itself was quite possibly impacted by those injuries), I think they absolutely deserved at least one all-star. I personally felt Lowry was more deserving, but couldn't argue with DeRozan's inclusion either.

                        I think people can get sensitive with these types of discussions, but it's an "if we..." discussion, not a "we must..." one.

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                        • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                          I was replying to the question you posed, about a type of situation that could be considered 'hate'.

                          As for DeRozan, I haven't come to any realizations, as my opinion on DeRozan has never changed. I still view his scoring as being largely inefficient and his defense to be terrible. I give him full credit for improving the peripheral aspects of his game - rebounding and assists - as I always felt he could. Even when I was called a 'hater' in the past, I never once questioned his trade value, as I've always felt he was held in high regard around the league - he's young, talented, still has potential, is fairly paid (glad he earned it so quickly, beyond any doubt), hardworking, is a great teammate, and has good character.

                          With his all-star appearance and the emergence of Ross, I really do think that there's never been a better time to explore the possibility of selling high. I also wouldn't be the least bit upset if he stays with Toronto. The fact is, for all the things that make him a good player and highly popular, along with his salary/contract status, he is the team's most marketable asset; if that isn't a compliment, I don't know what is?!
                          Your opinion is seriously the same from last summer? Well sir, hopefully you understand why some will still view you as a hater.

                          To be honest.....I don't believe in trading good young all-star players on amazing contracts (regardless of position). If that's your cop of tea and that entertains you, have at it. I don't get excited about trading away our better players for unknowns or unproven players. Why shouldn't we pursue a championship by keeping our better players, drafting right and cutting out the bad contracts?

                          I would much rather keep Demar and our current core instead of swinging for the home run and fucking up our chemistry.

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                          • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                            Given the Raptors' success and place in the standings (which itself was quite possibly impacted by those injuries), I think they absolutely deserved at least one all-star. I personally felt Lowry was more deserving, but couldn't argue with DeRozan's inclusion either.

                            I think people can get sensitive with these types of discussions, but it's an "if we..." discussion, not a "we must..." one.
                            Deserved an all-star and getting one are not the same thing, exhibit A: Joe Johnson.

                            I agree with you the Raps deserved an all-star, I also agree it should have been Lowry. However, I feel confident in saying if you have the other 4 all-stars playing that I listed, the Raps would have gone All-Starless.

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                            • special1 wrote: View Post
                              Your opinion is seriously the same from last summer? Well sir, hopefully you understand why some will still view you as a hater.

                              To be honest.....I don't believe in trading good young all-star players on amazing contracts (regardless of position). If that's your cop of tea and that entertains you, have at it. I don't get excited about trading away our better players for unknowns or unproven players. Why shouldn't we pursue a championship by keeping our better players, drafting right and cutting out the bad contracts?

                              I would much rather keep Demar and our current core instead of swinging for the home run and fucking up our chemistry.
                              I had 3 issues with DeRozan and he's successfully addressed 1 of them (peripheral contributions) this season. I give him full credit that he continues to improve.

                              I thought I'd made it quite clear that I'd only trade DeRozan if a fantastic opportunity presented itself, and that I trust MU to only pull the trigger for such an opportunity.

                              I've also said that I wouldn't be upset if the team kept DeRozan.

                              The roster will absolutely not be 100% the same next season as it is this season, so chemistry will have to be renewed once again. The on-court chemistry could be better or worse, with or without DeRozan on the team next season - none of us have any way of predicting that today. I will say that if management (ie: TL & MU) believe that this roster's ceiling is a 2nd round appearance, they'd probably agree with me that risking the chemistry to improve the talent level would be worth it, in the long-term. After witnessing the recent interviews in which TL & MU talked about building a team of high character guys, chemistry is the least of my concerns (again, regardless whether DeRozan is a Raptor or not next season).

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                              • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                Deserved an all-star and getting one are not the same thing, exhibit A: Joe Johnson.

                                I agree with you the Raps deserved an all-star, I also agree it should have been Lowry. However, I feel confident in saying if you have the other 4 all-stars playing that I listed, the Raps would have gone All-Starless.
                                True. Politics are definitely present in the NBA. However if Rose & Rondo were healthy, there's a good chance Irving doesn't get voted in, which could have left him off the team entirely. So many "what if" scenarios, both for the team and individual players, when trying to project a comparison between a healthy EC and the actual 2013-14 EC.

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