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The curse of the Titanic... DIVISION!

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  • #16
    Axel wrote: View Post
    We are 5-7, regardless of the division lead, 5-7 isn't very good.
    Craiger wrote: View Post
    Just to add a little relevant information to this thread:

    - tied for 17th best record in the league
    - 6th best record in the east
    - 5 teams within 1 game of Toronto in the east

    - 17th easiest schedule to date

    - 15th in net rating
    This team is a keeper!

    *Do I need to emphasize the sarcasm?*

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    • #17
      Although we are the Leaders of Air, not the Leaders of a Division,
      We do still get to be in 4th seed and have home court advantage if the playoffs started today!

      Its solid news, as it means if we maintain this till the playoffs, we arent immediate first-round fodder to Miami or Chicago!
      And since New York is looking crappier than ever, only Brooklyn is really going to challenge us for that spot!!
      The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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      • #18
        Nilanka wrote: View Post
        Plus, New York and Brookly should pickup the pace as the season progresses.
        There really isn't any proof to this.

        New York is a mess with Melo having to much on his shoulders to go all season. The cast of characters around him are all playing as individuals. There record could shape up to what the raptors started last season and that's one hell of a climb. Your looking at a possible 4-12 if you look at their next few games.

        Brooklyn are not playing well at all. How do you lay on this on Jason Kidd? maybe some, but how is an inexperianced coach gonna turn this around.

        Compared to what we have, we have a bunch of talent who finally can play some defense who some have been together for at least a 2-3 years.

        Toronto clearly looks to be the better team. Who says we can't also pick it up as the season goes. Our schedule is also supposed to get easier.

        I understand the hunger for going into the draft this year but are we gonna out worse Utah, Sac, Bucks, Philly, Suns, etc when they are in in the same position to tank better than us. If you chase this rabbit, you can be left with no team to build around at 7-13 pick. We are just not built for that strategy this year.
        Last edited by imaginelino; Thu Nov 21, 2013, 11:59 AM.

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        • #19
          imaginelino wrote: View Post
          Toronto clearly looks to be the better team. Who says we can't also pick it up as the season goes. Our schedule is also supposed to get easier.
          I was stating an opinion. The only "proof" I have of the Knicks and Nets playing well, is last year. Do you honestly think they'll be the 2 worst teams in the Atlantic by season's end? With management teams who are desperately in win-now mode?

          As for the Raptors picking it up, I'll believe it when I see it. I've been waiting for 6 years.

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          • #20
            imaginelino wrote: View Post
            There really isn't any proof to this.

            New York is a mess with Melo having to much on his shoulders to go all season. The cast of characters around him are all playing as individuals. There record could shape up to what the raptors started last season and that's one hell of a climb. Your looking at a possible 4-12 if you look at their next few games.

            Brooklyn are not playing well at all. How do you lay on this on Jason Kidd? maybe some, but how is an inexperianced coach gonna turn this around.

            Compared to what we have, we have a bunch of talent who finally can play some defense who some have been together for at least a 2-3 years.

            Toronto clearly looks to be the better team. Who says we can't also pick it up as the season goes. Our schedule is also supposed to get easier.
            If the season does play out this way (and it could), this team would be eerily similar to Toronto's only other division winning team. The division was extremely weak that year, but other teams were making moves for long term growth. The Raps got spanked in the first round and promptly fell well behind the pace in the East in subsequent seasons. Colangelo spent the rest of his tenure trying to patch up that roster to re-gain some success. It was extremely short-sighted to ignore the context of that division title, and it would be even more ridiculous to do it again.
            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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            • #21
              Nilanka wrote: View Post
              I was stating an opinion. The only "proof" I have of the Knicks and Nets playing well, is last year. Do you honestly think they'll be the 2 worst teams in the Atlantic by season's end? With management teams who are desperately in win-now mode?

              As for the Raptors picking it up, I'll believe it when I see it. I've been waiting for 6 years.
              I know its an opnion but what reason is there that you think they will pick it up? Just because of expectations put on them?

              I've been waiting as long as you as well and I agree that they haven't assured me anything other than setting up for another season of heartbreak. (possibly)

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              • #22
                imaginelino wrote: View Post
                I know its an opnion but what reason is there that you think they will pick it up? Just because of expectations put on them?

                I've been waiting as long as you as well and I agree that they haven't assured me anything other than setting up for another season of heartbreak. (possibly)
                Knicks played good D last night against the Pacers (even though they lost in OT, it was a big improvement) which has been a huge issue all season, but especially since they lost Tyson Chandler.

                Nets have too many talented players to not play better. They won't contend for a title this year, but they are certainly going to be better than a lottery pick.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                • #23
                  imaginelino wrote: View Post
                  I know its an opnion but what reason is there that you think they will pick it up? Just because of expectations put on them?

                  I've been waiting as long as you as well and I agree that they haven't assured me anything other than setting up for another season of heartbreak. (possibly)
                  Knicks and Nets both have more talent, and big game experience than the Raptors. That gives them a serious leg up.

                  The Nets have a very different roster this year, but the Knicks competed with basically the same core last year. Does Bargnani have that much of a negative affect? We'll see.

                  My initial point was that we shouldn't expect this division to be a cake-walk. It's still early. The Knicks and Nets have enough firepower to climb out of an early hole.

                  The Raptors, on the other hand, have a GM who's not sure whether to rip the roster to shreds.

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                  • #24
                    S.R. wrote: View Post
                    If the season does play out this way (and it could), this team would be eerily similar to Toronto's only other division winning team. The division was extremely weak that year, but other teams were making moves for long term growth. The Raps got spanked in the first round and promptly fell well behind the pace in the East in subsequent seasons. Colangelo spent the rest of his tenure trying to patch up that roster to re-gain some success. It was extremely short-sighted to ignore the context of that division title, and it would be even more ridiculous to do it again.
                    +1 billion. I've been thinking about this since the win last night.
                    Twitter - @thekid_it

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                    • #25
                      December schedule for the Raptors looks quite challenging. San Antonio twice, The Thunder, Bulls twice. lots of away games. Ouch.

                      Compared to New York and Brooklyn.

                      The raptors I've known these past 6 years will not hold that division lead over the Nets and Knicks.

                      Lets see what happens.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        imaginelino wrote: View Post
                        December schedule for the Raptors looks quite challenging. San Antonio twice, The Thunder, Bulls twice. lots of away games. Ouch.

                        Compared to New York and Brooklyn.

                        The raptors I've known these past 6 years will not hold that division lead over the Nets and Knicks.

                        Lets see what happens.
                        Agreed, I have a feeling that the raps will have a rough patch that puts a damper on some fans "home court advantage" optimism, but who knows. Maybe they'll all figure it out and become a top 10 offense and defense and beat the spurs and bulls, and pretty much everyone else.
                        "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                        "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                        "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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                        • #27
                          East's struggles might affect Masai's strategies - Chisholm

                          In recent weeks, as Dwane Casey struggled to find workable rotations, Rudy Gay struggled to find his shot and the Raptors as a whole struggled to find wins, the popular assumption was that it was only a matter of if – not when – Masai Ujiri would hit the self-destruct button and blow this roster up in the name of tanking for the 2014 draft. After all, this roster looked like a mess. There was no flow to the offence, the pieces didn’t mesh, and the rumours were abundant that Ujiri was willing to deal just about anyone on the roster not named Jonas Valanciunas.

                          Perception has a funny way of distorting reality, however.

                          First of all, the Raptors have never been all that bad this season. Their ugly-as-sin offence has been floating around the middle-of-the-pack in terms of efficiency all season (currently ranked 14th in the NBA) while their seldom-discussed defence has actually been ranked in the top-ten for weeks (currently their defensive efficiency sits at sixth-best in the league). Plus, with the Eastern Conference floundering as a whole and the Atlantic Division struggling even more so, the Raptors currently possess the East’s seventh-best record and the lead in their division. While that’s hardly an achievement to write home about right now given the competition, life in the NBA is as much about the teams that surround you as you yourself.

                          With all that said, you have to wonder not only about the likelihood of Ujiri choosing to tank, but the advisability of it. After all, the Raptors have exceed their preseason expectations (at least as it pertains to their place in the standings) because so many teams have failed to live up to theirs. Washington looks as bad as ever and Cleveland, somehow, looks worse. Milwaukee is nowhere near where they hoped they’d be after some ill-advised summer spending and the less said about New York and Brooklyn the better.

                          Now, not all of these teams will continue to struggle, but you have to imagine that at least a couple of their front office staffs have to be considering refocusing after seeing their squads actually play together these last few weeks. If they are going to lose more than they anticipated anyway, they may as well go for broke and throw their hat into the tanking pool and try their luck in next June’s draft. The problem is that the more teams that choose to go the tanking route, the more it dilutes the chances for everyone else when it comes to actually securing a top-tier pick. As strong and deep as this draft is believed to be, not every player is worth tanking for. If you get to a point where seven or eight organizations are either actively tanking or allowing for a cavalcade of losses (and you could argue that point pretty strongly for Philadelphia, Boston, Utah and Phoenix, already, with Milwaukee, Sacramento and Denver healthy bets to join them) then how much sense does it make to become the ninth or tenth club to play for draft picks? At what point are you letting a trendy – and unproven – strategy dictate policy at the expense of a less destructive mode of operation?

                          More specifically, if you’re Masai Ujiri, how badly do you want to work to pull apart this club (a club that has some workable pieces mixed in with some less desirable ones) when you may never be able to make yourself worse than the fifth- or sixth-worst team? Think about it: the teams that are going all-in on taking have gone in in a way that is nearly unprecedented in terms of it’s transparency. Does Ujiri really want to give away everything he has for pennies on the dollar in order to compete with the Philly’s and Phoenix’s of the NBA basement?

                          For instance, after four years invested in his development, DeMar DeRozan finally looks like he’s turned a corner in his career, and he’s done so at a position of increasing shallowness in the league, but if you wanna tank he’d have to go. Here you have a shooting guard posting the best scoring numbers of his career after finally implementing a three-point shot into his game, and he’s getting to the free throw line (ranking 16th in the league in FTA per game) at a career-best rate. Is he perfect? No. He’s still lacking on defense, he has zero court vision when it comes to playmaking and he’s generally not as versatile as some of the guys in his price range, but what he can do as a scorer nowadays is a legit skill, and one that shouldn’t be dismissed too quickly.

                          Remember, this isn’t a question of just trading DeRozan. One can make a great case for trading him now while he’s on an upswing to protect against the possibility that his recent effectiveness is just a mirage (we’ve seen bouts of effectiveness before). However, if the Raptors want to tank, they have to trade DeRozan for someone who is simply not as good. He’s not talented – or cheap – enough to return great picks or young gems; trading DeRozan in the name of tanking simply means giving away a guy of a certain talent level for someone at a lesser talent level. I know I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating: that’s not a good team-building strategy.

                          The Raptors aren’t likely to make any deals until December 15th at the earliest, since that’s when players signed to new deals this summer are allowed to be traded, and a lot can happen between now and then. Over the next twenty-three days they’ll play ten more games, six at home, and several of those contests could be considered winnable. If in that time the Raptors begin to bottom-out then this becomes a different conversation. However, if they maintain the kind of pace that they’re on while several other teams continue to flounder, that will have to have an impact on what Ujiri looks to do when the time finally comes to start juggling pieces on this roster.

                          None of this should be interpreted as advocation either way. While in principle I’m not a fan of tanking, I certainly understand the merits behind the strategy given the way the NBA system is designed. What I am saying, though, is that regardless of what strategy Ujiri came into the season with as it pertains to his roster and trading strategy, the realities of how the season has played out thus far, both for the Raptors and for the teams that sit below them, now has play a part in whatever direction Ujiri chooses to take this team. The fact of the matter is, it might be easier now for the Raptors to secure at top-six seed in the East than to secure a top-six slot in the draft. If Ujiri could shuffle the deck a bit, unload Rudy Gay and Kyle Lowry for pieces that will better compliment Jonas Valanciunas, Amir Johnson and DeRozan, he may see that as the smarter play over stripping the team bare and rolling the dice in the draft lottery. This whole thing could still play out a number of different ways, so all I’m saying is at this point don’t assume that Ujiri has his mind made up to throw the season into the toilet.
                          very interesting (depressing) take.
                          @sweatpantsjer

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            ceez wrote: View Post
                            very interesting (depressing) take.
                            Interesting, but it seems like Tim Chisholm needs to spend more time on the RR hearing what exactly "tanking" for Raps fans means.

                            If we can move Gay and Lowry for better pieces that improve our team in both the short term AND the long term, then I'm all for it because that is ultimately the goal. However, as TC says in his piece "Does Ujiri really want to give away everything he has for pennies on the dollar", so how exactly are we improving the team, when the writer himself says that the options are pennies on the dollar? That is something the "anti-tank" supporters have never said, how do you improve this team other than "wait and see"?

                            Also, very much disagree that trading DD is priority #1 for a "tank". Trading Gay and Lowry are the only "must" deals in my books. Demar is a 60/40 trade guy but he has enough to keep him in a reduced role.

                            Also think that a 20% chance at landing a top 5 pick is better than any player we are likely to get via a trade or free agency in the next 2 years. Wiggins, Parker, Randle, Smart, Exum - all game changers imo and better than anyone we currently have.
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              ceez wrote: View Post
                              very interesting (depressing) take.
                              You remove Lowry ride with Augustin/Buycks/Stone and this team is easily a top 6 seed with or without Gay and/or DeRozan.

                              This stinks of 2006-07/2007-08.


                              The flip side of Chisholm's article is the East is so bad there is going to be an extremely small difference between 7th and 14th. Hopefully a team like Charlotte or Cleveland who have sucked (intentionally) for years looks at this as an opportunity to make the jump to the playoffs with long term consequence be damned.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                ceez wrote: View Post
                                very interesting (depressing) take.
                                I actually found that article quite surprising coming from Chisholm. He seems to be viewing this season in such a vacuum, completely ignoring the longer term implications that any decision would have on this team. Given how long he's covered the Raptors, I'm also shocked that he doesn't see the parallels between this season and 2007, when that Raptors won the division under similar circumstances, causing them to tremendously overvalue their roster and poorly evaluate the progress of their rebuilding.

                                Yes, I am sure moves could be made to win the division this year. However, would that be in the best interest of the organization beyond this season? That's a question Chisholm seems to avoid and I think it's at least as important as the 'all in' VS 'tank' question.

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